Class 800 - Updates

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....It rather looks as if one set has now gone to the GWML for testing there whilst a second set is continuing work on the ECML.......

 

 

Class 800's started appearing at the Hitachi North Pole depot at the end of last year and there have been several visits so far this year, but you are right that this move signals the start of testing on the GWML.

 

The trains have been running to Reading and now as far as Bristol.

 

800101 seen here at Reading Station. (9th May)

 

 

Passing Twyford Station at speed on the same night.....

 

 

 

 

800002 at Bristol Parkway in broad daylight yesterday (17th May).

It has gone to the new Hitachi depot at Stoke Gifford......

 

 

 

.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Meanwhile, another Class 800 has made the first visit to the Newton Aycliffe factory test track.

Seen here moving under its own power and also being shunted by one of the new road rail-style shunters

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Roaring through at speed, near Acton Mainline.....

 

Here.

 

 

 

.

[Coryton]

This may be a silly question (and apologies if it's been answered elsewhere), but as (I believe) even the non-bi-modes have a diesel engine giving limited power, couldn't the depots have been left largely unwired and the sets moved around them on diesel power? They presumably don't need much power to do so.

 

Wouldn't this have saved quite a bit of money in building the depots, and also make them a safer environment?

 

I'm sure there is a good reason because these things don't generally happen because nobody thought of doing it differently...but I'd be curious to know what the reason it.

[modfather]

How do you test any systems related to the overhead?

 

Plus it's quieter and cleaner for the neighbours.

[cornish trains jez]

Is it me or done none of the above 3 videos work?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Is it me or done none of the above 3 videos work?

 

 

The Bristol Parkway one stutters and will freeze. Try changing the resolution settings to see if that works?

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

This may be a silly question (and apologies if it's been answered elsewhere), but as (I believe) even the non-bi-modes have a diesel engine giving limited power, couldn't the depots have been left largely unwired and the sets moved around them on diesel power? They presumably don't need much power to do so.

 

Wouldn't this have saved quite a bit of money in building the depots, and also make them a safer environment?

 

I'm sure there is a good reason because these things don't generally happen because nobody thought of doing it differently...but I'd be curious to know what the reason it.

 

It does make a degree of safety sense (odd tho' that might sound) in that a set going on depot off overhead power could have a  Driver who forgets to changeover to/start diesel mode and the train comes to an awkwardly positioned stand once the pans are clear of the mainline overhead.  Same with going off depot as well although at least it would then keep going on diesel power - without having tested the overhead side as already pointed out.

 

And Drivers forgetting to change over - it happened with Eurostars so no reason why it wouldn't happen with these.

[Titan]

The changeover is supposed to be fully automatic with no driver intervention. However I get the feeling that this is just an aspiration that might be somewhat difficult to implement in practice...

[Karhedron]

The changeover is supposed to be fully automatic with no driver intervention. However I get the feeling that this is just an aspiration that might be somewhat difficult to implement in practice...

 

The tilting on the Pendolinos is fully automatic and controlled from the trackside IIRC. No reason a similar system couldn't be used to automate the changeover at the required locations.

 

No idea if they are actually using a similar system, just pointing out that it is not technically a difficult thing to implement.

[Richard E]

ECML runs Tuesday night and last night cancelled at the request of the customer - teething problems?

 

Scheduled again for tonight ....

[The Stationmaster]

The changeover is supposed to be fully automatic with no driver intervention. However I get the feeling that this is just an aspiration that might be somewhat difficult to implement in practice...

 

Sounds like a nice aspiration to me but I think it will take a very clever box of electronic tricks to make sure all the diesel engines are fired up and producing the correct power output at the right time and that the pans lower in exactly the right place when running at 100mph one day and down to 40mph or less under restrictive signal aspects the next.

[Titan]

Sounds like a nice aspiration to me but I think it will take a very clever box of electronic tricks to make sure all the diesel engines are fired up and producing the correct power output at the right time and that the pans lower in exactly the right place when running at 100mph one day and down to 40mph or less under restrictive signal aspects the next.

 

The technical side is not so bad, it is intended to put balises prior to the junctions required much in the same way that the Pendolino has balises telling it is OK to tilt. Thus when it runs over one the diesel engine powers up and the pan drops in plenty of time before the wires run out. However there are some issues. Firstly the train has to know which way it is going at the junction so it can take appropriate action. Might be difficult to achieve if an unscheduled diversion is required at the last moment. Secondly it is unlikely that raising the pan at high speed will be allowed, and if it is necessary for the driver to remember to slow down then that is driver intervention and not fully automatic. If the train was slowed down automatically without driver intervention that would open a whole new can of worms...

[Zomboid]

Eurostars raise and lower their pans at reasonable speed when entering and leaving Belgium.

How many junctions are there where there's a likely need to change power source at 100+? I don't know the Western that well, but I can't think of any on the ECML. Temple Hirst on the Hull route is possibly the fastest non electrified diverging route that an 800 might take.

[JeffP]

Is it me, or are those just prototypes, but only FIVE cars? Have we lost out AGAIN?

[Fat Controller]

Is it me, or are those just prototypes, but only FIVE cars? Have we lost out AGAIN?

There are five car and nine-car versions, I believe, with both straight-electric and dual-mode power, and all interoperable.

[Zomboid]

The idea I think is to run them as 2x5 on the busy sections, and do a split/join for the quieter bits.

Who knows, the plan may even survive the tricky interface with reality...

[The Stationmaster]

The technical side is not so bad, it is intended to put balises prior to the junctions required much in the same way that the Pendolino has balises telling it is OK to tilt. Thus when it runs over one the diesel engine powers up and the pan drops in plenty of time before the wires run out. However there are some issues. Firstly the train has to know which way it is going at the junction so it can take appropriate action. Might be difficult to achieve if an unscheduled diversion is required at the last moment. Secondly it is unlikely that raising the pan at high speed will be allowed, and if it is necessary for the driver to remember to slow down then that is driver intervention and not fully automatic. If the train was slowed down automatically without driver intervention that would open a whole new can of worms...

 

I cannot understand this peculiar British obsession with stopping (or even slowing down) to raise or lower a pantograph.  It used to be a treat of comic cuts entertainment to watch the emus coming off the overhead section at Mitre Bridge and stopping to lower the pan, or doing the reverse of it - all on a steep gradient - when changing over to 3rd rail power.

 

Widespread continental practice is to lower and raise pans while on the move and it seems to work quite satisfactorily with no de-wirements although there can be a bit if arcing (just like there can be doing it while stationary) and it is quite amusing to watch it at border stations where there is a system change and one pan comes down as the train approaches and the other is raised once the loco is over the system border. all at full linespeed.  If TGVs, Thalys, and Eurostars can lower and raise pans at full LGV linespeeds without any problems I find it extremely difficult to understand why it will not be possible on NR's new type of catenary which I understand is intended to be stiffer and more wind resistant?  And in France it is done with much higher uplift forces for the pan than is the case in Britain.

[Oakydoke]

Is it me, or are those just prototypes, but only FIVE cars? Have we lost out AGAIN?

This is the most talked about and discussed new passenger train of modern times; probably the most talked about and publicly debated new train ever. Where have you been?

[Oakydoke]

IIRC, the IEP specification required a seamless changeover of power source at line speed?

[APOLLO]

2 x 5 car sets = progress ????

 

Waiting for my Glasgow to Manchester EMU at Wigan North Western the other day a Virgin Voyager rolls in on it's way to Euston via Birmingham. 2 sets coupled together. People getting on the wrong set, off again and running up & down the platform in both directions, holding the train up for a couple of minutes. I Imagine this happens at most major stations en route. And this is progress ??. The following train before mine was an 11 car Pendolino direct to London, people just got on and sorted themselves out on board.

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

I cannot understand this peculiar British obsession with stopping (or even slowing down) to raise or lower a pantograph.  It used to be a treat of comic cuts entertainment to watch the emus coming off the overhead section at Mitre Bridge and stopping to lower the pan, or doing the reverse of it - all on a steep gradient - when changing over to 3rd rail power.

 

Widespread continental practice is to lower and raise pans while on the move and it seems to work quite satisfactorily with no de-wirements although there can be a bit if arcing (just like there can be doing it while stationary) and it is quite amusing to watch it at border stations where there is a system change and one pan comes down as the train approaches and the other is raised once the loco is over the system border. all at full linespeed.  If TGVs, Thalys, and Eurostars can lower and raise pans at full LGV linespeeds without any problems I find it extremely difficult to understand why it will not be possible on NR's new type of catenary which I understand is intended to be stiffer and more wind resistant?  And in France it is done with much higher uplift forces for the pan than is the case in Britain.

 

But until Eurostars started running all OHLE - con rail changeovers were done at stations (Drayton Park & Farringdon) - so the issue of on the move changeovers never occurred until the WLL got OHLE from North Pole Juc to Willesden Junc*. There is also the fact that we have never had the French situation of two different OHLE systems meeting (1.5KV DC & 25KV AC) requiring pantograph swapping at speed.

 

I would suggest the reason why the British took so long to allow on the move changeovers was much the same as the refusal to allow a 25KVAC connection running along the roof of passenger carrying vehicles until the introduction of the Pendalinos (despite the French having proved it being perfectly safe since 1980. Namely a far too cautious attitude to anything 'not invented here' and a desire to 'gold plate' regulations.

 

*While today it might make sense to bring OHLE as far as Shepherds Bush station to facilitate turn rounds if the changeover doesn't work correctly, I believe there is insufficient clearance under the A40 (The Westway) bridge for OHLE. Plus of course Shepherds Bush station didn't exist at the time the line was electrified

Edited May 19, 2016 by phil-b259

[Titan]

I cannot understand this peculiar British obsession with stopping (or even slowing down) to raise or lower a pantograph.  It used to be a treat of comic cuts entertainment to watch the emus coming off the overhead section at Mitre Bridge and stopping to lower the pan, or doing the reverse of it - all on a steep gradient - when changing over to 3rd rail power.

 

Widespread continental practice is to lower and raise pans while on the move and it seems to work quite satisfactorily with no de-wirements although there can be a bit if arcing (just like there can be doing it while stationary) and it is quite amusing to watch it at border stations where there is a system change and one pan comes down as the train approaches and the other is raised once the loco is over the system border. all at full linespeed.  If TGVs, Thalys, and Eurostars can lower and raise pans at full LGV linespeeds without any problems I find it extremely difficult to understand why it will not be possible on NR's new type of catenary which I understand is intended to be stiffer and more wind resistant?  And in France it is done with much higher uplift forces for the pan than is the case in Britain.

 

 

But until Eurostars started running all OHLE - con rail changeovers were done at stations (Drayton Park & Farringdon) - so the issue of on the move changeovers never occurred until the WLL got OHLE from North Pole Juc to Willesden Junc*. There is also the fact that we have never had the French situation of two different OHLE systems meeting (1.5KV DC & 25KV AC) requiring pantograph swapping at speed.

 

I would suggest the reason why the British took so long to allow on the move changeovers was much the same as the refusal to allow a 25KVAC connection running along the roof of passenger carrying vehicles until the introduction of the Pendalinos (despite the French having proved it being perfectly safe since 1980. Namely a far too cautious attitude to anything 'not invented here' and a desire to 'gold plate' regulations.

 

*While today it might make sense to bring OHLE as far as Shepherds Bush station to facilitate turn rounds if the changeover doesn't work correctly, I believe there is insufficient clearance under the A40 (The Westway) bridge for OHLE. Plus of course Shepherds Bush station didn't exist at the time the line was electrified

 

British OLE was done on the cheap. This means that there is less tension in the wires than elsewhere. Less tension means lower radial loads which means cheaper structures further apart can be used. The downside is not only is our OLE worse at coping with multiple pans and wind, it means it takes less kindly to a pan raising and subsequently bouncing at speed. On the GWML the new equipment has higher tensions so this is less likely to be a problem. On the ECML there may be more concern. However when changing over on the move the Class 800's are designed to raise the pantograph more slowly so as to give more of a 'soft kiss' to our delicate OLE. In this case it is unlikely that raising the pan at line speed will be an issue, providing it is done clear of crossovers, bridges, level crossings or other features which may have an adverse affect.

[Red Baron]

British OLE was done on the cheap. This means that there is less tension in the wires than elsewhere. Less tension means lower radial loads which means cheaper structures further apart can be used. The downside is not only is our OLE worse at coping with multiple pans and wind, it means it takes less kindly to a pan raising and subsequently bouncing at speed. On the GWML the new equipment has higher tensions so this is less likely to be a problem. On the ECML there may be more concern. However when changing over on the move the Class 800's are designed to raise the pantograph more slowly so as to give more of a 'soft kiss' to our delicate OLE. In this case it is unlikely that raising the pan at line speed will be an issue, providing it is done clear of crossovers, bridges, level crossings or other features which may have an adverse affect.

 

 

There isnt much requirement to lower or raise the Pan on the ECML though is there?

[HillsideDepot]

There isnt much requirement to lower or raise the Pan on the ECML though is there?

I'm wondering how much it will happen on the Western.

 

Most change overs will be done during station stops: Bristol for Weston-s-M trains, Cardiff for Swansea trains, Swindon for Cheltenham trains and Oxford for Chiltern Line trains. So that leaves Newbury for West of England trains, moving, but not that fast, and perhaps Severn Tunnel Junction for (rare) diversions via Gloucester? Oh, and probably Wootton Bassett Junction for trains via Bath, in the interim.