East Coast Main Line to Virgin Trains East Coast

[cravensdmufan]

I'd hazard a guess that the pattern exists for a pretty logical if unfortunate reason. The "leading" operator i.e. GNER/East Coast puts the business on a sound footing, with strong passenger numbers, revenue growth and staff satisfaction, the "trailing" operator uses this strong basis for an overly optimistic bid that is nigh on impossible to achieve and results in the franchise becoming untenable.

With regards to the current situation, I'd give VTEC until the full introduction of IEPs before I make full judgement, afterall that was the fundamental basis of what the DfT were looking for from operators.

That is an interesting theory regarding over optimistic bids.

 

But the bottom line is that both private operators since privatisation have had to "hand the keys back" because presumably they found they were unable to make enough money out of the operation.

 

Which makes me wonder how long will it be before the same thing happens again?

 

Incidentally - the frequent on-train announcers now just say "Virgin Trains" - they have dropped the Virgin Trains East Coast name already.

 

But I have to say every train I travelled on was either on time or a few minutes before time! 

[Talltim]

Thanks. I should replace that with "large parts are exclusively under one operator- stagecoach and other parts are exclusively under another (govia?)". Either way, they don't compete with each other.

 

You aren't going to have stagecoach management saying "right lads, we need to lower our prices and improve our reliablity, seating capacity and customer services on the route to Portsmouth, otherwise there's a real danger that some people might travel with the opposition to Hastings instead."

You've mis-understood where the competition is with our system of rail privatisation. The competition is in winning the franchises, which in theory gives the best/cheapest deal for the public, passengers and taxpayers.

Stagecoach/Virgin competed with FirstGroup and Keolis/Eurostar for the east coast franchise

Edited October 14, 2015 by Talltim

[kenw]

But the bottom line is that both private operators since privatisation have had to "hand the keys back" because presumably they found they were unable to make enough money out of the operation.

 

Which makes me wonder how long will it be before the same thing happens again?

 

Incidentally - the frequent on-train announcers now just say "Virgin Trains" - they have dropped the Virgin Trains East Coast name already.

Not quite in the case of GNER, probably more to do with the parent company SEA Containers, errm, Sinking

 

It's still Virgin Trains East Coast, just it's rather long winded in anouncements

Edited October 14, 2015 by kenw

[SwissRailPassion]

Virgin trains has offered me a ticket for £40 so I tried Virgin East Coast a few seconds later, and for the same journey they found me one for £35.

[Richard E]

As a daily ECML commuter of nearly 9 years I would say:

 

GNER - very good

NXEC - very poor

EC (DOR) - poor

Virgin - better (so far) that it's two predecessors

 

The livery is not of the best choice for colour but wears dirt much better than the NXEC livery did. Unfortunately the new vinyls were peeling within two or three weeks and that has delayed the livery change, some are still running in EC Grey.

 

For punctuality GNER and Virgin are on a par so far with East Coast being dire, far worse than NXEC.

 

Given that staff, up to and including some senior posts, are exactly the same between EC and Virgin and quite possibly even back to the days of GNER for some it seems odd to find that there is such a disparity of opinion between the operators when the traveller is asked. How much of that is down to preconceived ideas about a particular operating company?

 

Oh, 225's still smell the same as they did with NXEC and EC - stale beer and sweat internally punctuated with wafts of hot brake pads (enough to cause complaints to the guard about burning smells this week) and, in a lot of cases, overflowing toilet tanks by the time the set is on it's second or third round trip of the day.

 

And the aircon is still a lottery, yesterday morning it was on maximum cooling for the morning trip north on the 07:00 ex KGX to Edinburgh in at least one coach. In summer maximum heat is not unknown ...

Edited October 15, 2015 by Richard E

[Gary H]

 

 

Oh, 225's still smell the same as they did with NXEC and EC - stale beer and sweat internally punctuated with wafts of hot brake pads (enough to cause complaints to the guard about burning smells this week) and, in a lot of cases, overflowing toilet tanks by the time the set is on it's second or third round trip of the day.

 

And the aircon is still a lottery, yesterday morning it was on maximum cooling for the morning trip north on the 07:00 ex KGX to Edinburgh in at least one coach. In summer maximum heat is not unknown ...

Useful and enlightening info Richard, thanks.

The first thing to spring to mind after reading that is, you wouldn't think this was 2015 would you??!!

Its sounds more like a run down BR Mark 1 set in 1978. Something I don't associate (until now) with a modern high speed, high profile rail service.

Shocking really.

[newbryford]

"let's privatise the railways to give consumers [apparently a new word for passengers] a choice"

 

I want to go London to Edinburgh:

 

stagecoach rail t/a virgin from Euston

stagecoach rail t/a virgin from Kings Cross

stagecoach rail t/a stagecoach rail from St. Pancrase to the North Midlands and then....

stagecoach bus t/a megabus

(you could always look for a national express coach, if you can still find any).

 

Yes, great choices there. The same can be said on the West Country where most of it is first- but at least they have a little bit of arriva chucked in for variety.

 

South of London. Oh, right- nearly all stagecoach rail.

 

As much as I am trying to steer clear of controversy- railways were always described as "a privatisation too far" and it was true.

 

You could always fly. Choice of four operators. Ryanair, Easyjet, BA and Flybe.......

 

Cheers,

Mick

[31A]

As a daily ECML commuter of nearly 9 years I would say:

 

GNER - very good

NXEC - very poor

EC (DOR) - poor

Virgin - better (so far) that it's two predecessors

 

The livery is not of the best choice for colour but wears dirt much better than the NXEC livery did. Unfortunately the new vinyls were peeling within two or three weeks and that has delayed the livery change, some are still running in EC Grey.

 

For punctuality GNER and Virgin are on a par so far with East Coast being dire, far worse than NXEC.

 

Given that staff, up to and including some senior posts, are exactly the same between EC and Virgin and quite possibly even back to the days of GNER for some it seems odd to find that there is such a disparity of opinion between the operators when the traveller is asked. How much of that is down to preconceived ideas about a particular operating company?

 

Oh, 225's still smell the same as they did with NXEC and EC - stale beer and sweat internally punctuated with wafts of hot brake pads (enough to cause complaints to the guard about burning smells this week) and, in a lot of cases, overflowing toilet tanks by the time the set is on it's second or third round trip of the day.

 

And the aircon is still a lottery, yesterday morning it was on maximum cooling for the morning trip north on the 07:00 ex KGX to Edinburgh in at least one coach. In summer maximum heat is not unknown ...

 

In the most recent 4-weekly period, 65% of delay to VTEC trains was attributed to Network Rail (which includes external causes such as fatalities), with 22% being caused by the TOC's own failings, which is about average nationally and quite a lot a lot better than several operators (although admittedly the circumstances vary greatly from TOC to TOC).  See 'Delay Split by Franchised Operator':

 

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/

[Richard E]

I fully realise that the majority of delays are not usually down to the TOC. It would be interesting to see how they compare between the four different TOC that we have seen on the ECML.

[wombatofludham]

London to Edinburgh without using a Stagecoach owned or Stagecoach partnership operator? Chiltern from Marylebone to either Banbury or Birmingham (owned by DB) then Cross Country (Arriva, owned by DB) from Banbury or Birmingham New Street via Newcastle. Or, London Midland to Birmingham (GoVia) then Cross Country as above, or Cross Country to Manchester then First Trans Pennine to Edinburgh.

 

Convoluted, possibly. Longer, probably. Cost wise who knows, with book ahead fares you probably could do something competitive. More fun? Certainly. However, I must admit I did find it surprising when Stagecoach with a minority Virgin shareholding got East Coast as it did effectively give Stagecoach a monopoly on both prime routes to Yorkshire and the Virgin-Stagecoach operation monopoly operation of the two Anglo-Scottish trunk routes which seemed counter intuitive. It was almost as if the DforT decided that EasyJet, Ryanair etc were sufficient competition for the rail operation.

[The Stationmaster]

I fully realise that the majority of delays are not usually down to the TOC. It would be interesting to see how they compare between the four different TOC that we have seen on the ECML.

Click on the link 'Delay Split by Franchised Operator' on that page as it also includes Hull Trains and Grand Central.  The delay down to NR etc incidents is broadly similar for all three operators in the year to 19 September, viz - 69% for Hull Trains, 66% for Grand Central, and 65% for VTEC.

 

Train operators delays caused to themself it very interesting Hull Trains 9%, Grand Central 10%, VTEC 22% (although the latter is one of the lower figures for long distance operators).  But delays caused by other passenger operators go the other way with both Grand Central and Hull Trains on 19% while VTEC is low at 9%.

 

Regrettably of course percentages don't tell you much if you don't know total delay figures but they could possibly be indicative of something (not taht I'm entirely sure what it would be).

[Ian Hargrave]

You could always fly. Choice of four operators. Ryanair, Easyjet, BA and Flybe.......

 

Cheers,

Mick

And as a bonus get the best view of The Forth Bridge as your aircraft is on final approach (starboard). I love train travel but when we decided to have a celebratory weekend in Edinburgh last year,FlyBe beat the lot......at any rate an XC 221 cigar tube for 5 or so hours. 50 minutes & choice of tram or express bus into the city is a more than acceptable alternative.Competitive fares too.

[wombatofludham]

Last time I went to Edinburgh it was to help a cousin whose lad wanted to go on an airplane and as she was a nervous flyer and uncertain how her son would take it I went along as moral support. As a precaution I booked a train back (in case he hated flying) and got us some absolute bargain seats in first class back to Birmingham with XC. The flyBe Q400 was entertaining but I really enjoyed the Voyager back, nice and comfortable, low noise levels and pretty sprightly away from station stops. Excellent air conditioning and free tea and coffee made for a most enjoyable return trip. Price wise the single air fare and the single first class tickets were pretty much the same. Bizarrely the same journey in standard was more than £60 more than first class - the joys of quota controlled pricing.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I don't know if this CGI has been posted before?

Courtesy of VTEC (creative commons).

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

FYI...return fare Oct.2014 EMA to Edinburgh ....including 3 days air park for car....£167 for two.

[Glorious NSE]

The "delays caused to self/to other operators" make sense to me in the context of how many trains each operator runs.

If HT or GC have a train sit down for half an hour (say) then they are unlikely to cause much delay to another of their own trains (at least beyond the next working that the delayed set is supposed to work) but the delay will undoubtedly affect trains of other operators - whereas if VTEC have a train sit down for half an hour, depending on location it's likely to affect more of their own trains than HT or GC do, so the percentages aren't even easily comparable.

Ultimately I think you're right Mike, unless you know the numbers they are based on they are interesting, but potentially misleading as a way of comparing between operators.

[Gary H]

And as a bonus get the best view of The Forth Bridge as your aircraft is on final approach (starboard). I love train travel but when we decided to have a celebratory weekend in Edinburgh last year,FlyBe beat the lot......at any rate an XC 221 cigar tube for 5 or so hours. 50 minutes & choice of tram or express bus into the city is a more than acceptable alternative.Competitive fares too.

Yesterday, my mother asked me to find out the price of a ticket from Liskeard (Cornwall) to Man Vic, return. Cheapest, off peak, advanced as you can get, £158  

An absolute farce. Wouldn't be so bad if it was a nice train to travel on.

[Reorte]

Useful and enlightening info Richard, thanks.

The first thing to spring to mind after reading that is, you wouldn't think this was 2015 would you??!!

Its sounds more like a run down BR Mark 1 set in 1978. Something I don't associate (until now) with a modern high speed, high profile rail service.

Shocking really.

Don't look after things properly and that's how they'll end up after a while, is there really anything that different in that respect between now and 1978? People often appear to welcome new stuff but I think that they generally confuse "better" with "just hasn't had time to get tatty yet" (although obviously there are meangingful improvements too, such as not disintegrating in an accident).

[Talltim]

Yesterday, my mother asked me to find out the price of a ticket from Liskeard (Cornwall) to Man Vic, return. Cheapest, off peak, advanced as you can get, £158  

An absolute farce. Wouldn't be so bad if it was a nice train to travel on.

I can get £128.40, but I don't know what times she wanted to travel at, or on what days.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Talltim

[Richard E]

Mike

 

I was actually thinking of VTEC vs East Coast vs NXEC vs GNER over the years.

 

OK, perhaps I am being lazy but I haven't tried looking the details up via Google; unfortunately work, or what passes for it, tends to take up most of my time in front of a computer screen and I try to avoid, or spend as little time as possible at them at weekends.

 

Off to do some research in what remains of my lunch hour then ....

[Gary H]

I can get £128.40, but I don't know what times she wanted to travel at, or on what days.

What days did you opt for?

I tried a couple of times but still ended up with the same!

Still expensive though for what is a slow and uncomfortable service.

7 hours IIRC.

I drove from down here to Ayr a few months back, even making 3 stops and sticking to all speed limits it only took me 8 hours!

Ive always been a rail supporter but these days its getting more difficult to maintain that mantra.

[Talltim]

What days did you opt for?

I tried a couple of times but still ended up with the same!

Still expensive though for what is a slow and uncomfortable service.

7 hours IIRC.

I drove from down here to Ayr a few months back, even making 3 stops and sticking to all speed limits it only took me 8 hours!

Ive always been a rail supporter but these days its getting more difficult to maintain that mantra.

Out on the 19th Nov at 11:00, return on 20th at 11:00

[cravensdmufan]

Talking railways with a Virgin Trains East Coast guard (20+ years service - unusual in these days of non career railway personnel) the other day and I asked him "what the new company were like to work for?"

 

"Not great, it's just a different animal but with the same smell" was the answer!

 

Which reminded me, I was on a Voyager to Chester on the same company's West Coast route two weeks ago. And those toilets really do still smell!

[kenw]

I was actually thinking of VTEC vs East Coast vs NXEC vs GNER over the years.

Even that wouldn't be directly comparable, it was somewhat easier to time trains back then...

A quick google, VTEC run 152 trains per weekday,

IIRC, at the start of GNER it was 100, and of coarse, no Open Access trains then.

Also, the timings then would have been as from InterCity, which as I commented above, were faster than they are now.

 

Back then, being a Class 1 actually meant something

and being an East Coast Express really meant something!

 

One particular day I remember, shortly before the demise of InterCity...

we (2 drivers then of course, so not just me) were on an HST service from the north, booked Newcastle to London in 3 hours with one or maybe two stops (quite slack timings really).

the train arrived into Newcastle 16 mins. late...

we made up 19 ! (and all strictly linespeed) 

A Trans Pennine had left shortly ahead of us, we passed it being held on the slow line at Tyne Yard, not something you'd see these days.

And back then, the ECML was like riding on a billiard table!

Even remember the power car numbers (though not which way round), but hardly surprising..

43113 'City of Newcastle' - our home station - and

43114 'National Garden Festival, Gateshead' - where my (then) house was built on

 

These days, you'd more than likely loose another 16...

Just a month or so back, and a similar train, arrives into Newcastle 20 late,

ready to leave, we're held for a further 5 minutes for a Cross Country to go first (although he has more stops)..

train ends up 35 late at Kings X

[kenw]

Talking railways with a Virgin Trains East Coast guard (20+ years service - unusual in these days of non career railway personnel) the other day and I asked him "what the new company were like to work for?"

What? Just 20 years?