Wright writes.....

[chris45lsw]

As the person who contributed the remark that 1705/06 were the last pre-Nationalisation (hauled) coaches in service perhaps I should comment.  Firstly, technically, this was true when they were withdrawn as 'Sc1999' was at that time still in service stock as Inspection Saloon DE902260!  But there is something strange about SC1999 - granted it started work on the W. Highland in 1980 but was it a 'normal' BR coach?  I could not find it in the relevant RCTS BR Coaching Stock books (which is why I overlooked it) which suggests it was not listed in official BR lists of capital stock.  A bit of a mystery as to what its official status really was.

 

This aside it was interesting in starting life as the prototype LNER Thompson (or Newton) coach - the unique diagram 334 FK No. 1531 of 1945, 61ft 6in in length as opposed to the 63ft of production Thompson FKs to diag.332.  Of course it was subsequently rebuilt as an Inspection Saloon.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas   

[Bob Reid]

Both the "observation" saloons on the Scottish Region, SC1998 and SC1999 were taken into capital stock on the ScR by the General Manager Chris though granted both were ex-departmental stock in a prior life - either way both survived in regular BR fare paying passenger use beyond the two buffets. Sc1999 ran for a time with its original 1531 number however dropping the suffix proved problematic....    Apologies for wandering off course on your thread Tony, Bachmann are not likely to produce either of the two in their later condition.

[Mallard60022]

This was a good seller for us in Lawrence Scale Models days. The one at Llangollen is beautifully restored in BR carmine & cream.

 

WEB Thompson Buffet.jpg

I forgot to say what a stunning coach restoration this is. Not the most beautiful looking coach but a magnificent piece of work by this railway. I'd love to have a ride in this.

P

[robertcwp]

Looking back over the recent posts about coaching stock, I have a few points I can add.

 

I agree that some pre-nationalisation catering cars would be good to have in 00.  Not all trains that included them were huge.  Study carriage workings and you will find plenty of trains with 8 or so carriages that included full catering, albeit mostly not on the East Coast (except the Talisman).

 

On the LMR, the Caledonian was at one time an 8-coach formation including an RK.  In its later years on the GC, the Master Cutler came down to 8 or 9 too - it had a Gresley RF/RTP pair and an ex-streamlined Twin-FO pair in its final couple of years on the GC.  The major issue for the manufacturers is that lots of catering types were built in small quantities and many underwent modifications over their lives. 

 

If I recall correctly, the pantry cars had a café set and sink in the pantry so they could be used to serve hot drinks to restaurant car passengers.  I have seen one or two formations listed in carriage workings, mostly dated trains, that included an RTP/RSP and no other catering, but whether the pantry was in use is not clear.  Some or all of the final batch of Gresley pantry cars entered service as open firsts and were later downgraded to third, with their pantries never being used as such. 

 

As regards Mark I stock, there are only three diagrams of passenger-carrying gangwayed stock of which more than 100 were built where we have not seen recent 00 RTR models, and in one case have never seen an RTR model.  They are the BSO, FO (Diag 73) and RB.  The latter two were modelled by Replica and Mainline respectively many years ago.  Bachmann have made or are about to make a Diag 73 in their N-gauge Farish range but no sign as yet in 00.  The BSO would be very welcome for East Coast Main Line modellers in particular.  The RB and FO were distributed across all regions, carried many liveries and lasted a long time in front line service.

 

Commonwealth bogies appeared in quantity on Mark I stock from 1960 (there had been a trial batch on a few FOs in the mid-1950s).  Most RB had them from new, except the 1701-38 batch, but only RU E1959-91 had them from new.  The production RU carriages emerged from 1957 but the RB did not appear in quantity until 1960.  Another type often overlooked is the RKB.

 

Here is a pantry car on the LMR, possibly running as an ordinary SO:

46163_1A46-Barrow-Euston_FaringtonJct_18-8-62-crop by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

SC1999 was mentioned earlier in the thread:

Sc1999_FortWilliam_8-83 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Mark I FO:

E3049_FortWilliam by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

RU with Gresley bogies:

E1928_APR-73 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Tony Wright]

Both the "observation" saloons on the Scottish Region, SC1998 and SC1999 were taken into capital stock on the ScR by the General Manager Chris though granted both were ex-departmental stock in a prior life - either way both survived in regular BR fare paying passenger use beyond the two buffets. Sc1999 ran for a time with its original 1531 number however dropping the suffix proved problematic....    Apologies for wandering off course on your thread Tony, Bachmann are not likely to produce either of the two in their later condition.

Bob,

 

Wander away, please. It's all fascinating stuff.

 

As for what Bachmann is going to do with regard to the Thompsons, I should know more in a fortnight when I go to Barwell again. Unlike in the case of the C1, I've not had to sign a non-disclosure document, but I always check before posting any information. 

 

From what's in the latest catalogue and in conversation with the team responsible, the initial releases will be far superior models (superb in fact) to what's been on offer before from Bachmann. This means amongst other things, a correct roof-profile, correctly-placed ventilators (on the centre line of the compartments NOT the roof), non-armoured sides, accurate bogies and correct underframes. The team borrowed a few of my Comet made-up Thompsons (though fitted with MJT roofs) as a sort of guide, it being easier in some ways to have an actual 3D item for scrutiny at the design stage. I would never be so bold as to claim that they have copied these (I insisted that they were just 'layout' coaches) and if my cars have any real merit it's because most of them were built by Tony Geary. But, items such as bogie footboards, guard's steps, dynamos and ventilator positions (on the centre line of the roofs at the brake portions, apart from the one above the guard's compartment) correctly placed on my models proved to be of some little help.

 

The problem (and it's not really a problem) is that the putative/projected/expected range is what's been produced before. It would seem, however, if these excellent models sell well, then a catering vehicle (or two) might be in the offing in future. I'm taking over an RF when I go. So, you followers of railways from the east (or anywhere on summer Saturdays!), order these vehicles in some numbers. That way, you'll not only get fantastic replacements for all the previous Bachmann Thompsons (no doubt thousands of these will then appear second-hand?) but you'll generate the motivation for the production of a Thompson catering car of some kind.  

 

I should point out that I am not a representative of Bachmann, just a (very minor) helper with projects from time to time. 

[coachmann]

Personally i would like to see a 'typical' Gresley kitchen dining car of the kind with clipper sides and recessed doors. There was something very classy about them. The one below is an early Gresley D10C diner without the recessed doors . Later ones with wider sides lend themselves admirably to plastic moulding....

 

Edited July 31, 2014 by coachmann

[jrg1]

The Thompson Buffet restoration is an outstanding example of what preserved lines can achieve nowadays-along with the Wickham DMU.  Following on from that, I hope the time is not too far off when we see replica coach building projects.  With the huge amount of resources required to overhaul such as the Bulleid stock on the Bluebell, it is surely only a short step to newbuildings.

Regarding models we would like to see, the less common types could be catered for by limited edition marketing-if it works for the Heljan Garratt and Kernow Sentinel, why not Gresley artics?

[Tony Wright]

Personally i would like to see a 'typical' Gresley kitchen dining car of the kind with clipper sides and recessed doors. There was something very classy about them. The one below is an early Gresley D10C diner without the recessed doors . Later ones with wider sides lend themselves admirably to plastic moulding....

 

Copy of WEB Gresley D10C diner.jpg

Larry,

          That's one of the most beautiful and 'natural' models of a Gresley catering vehicle I've ever seen, in any scale or gauge. In fact, it's one of the best carriages I've seen a picture of.

 

What are its origins, please? Is it a complete kit, modification, scratch-build, etc?

 

My only criticism/observation, if I may be so bold, is that it appears to be carried on standard bogies. The catering/pressure-ventilated/sleeping cars rode on heavy-duty bogies. If my crumbling eyesight cannot detect that your splendid car rides on the correct bogies, my apologies.  

[LNER4479]

Personally i would like to see a 'typical' Gresley kitchen dining car of the kind with clipper sides and recessed doors. There was something very classy about them. The one below is an early Gresley D10C diner without the recessed doors . Later ones with wider sides lend themselves admirably to plastic moulding....

 

Copy of WEB Gresley D10C diner.jpg

From a model manufacturer point of view, Bachmann are revamping their range of Thompson vehicles so a Thompson catering vehicle is an obvious addition to that range (there will surely be commonality with underframes, ends, roof profiles, etc). I would therefore have to reluctantly accept that to tool up for a single Gresley vehicle in their range would be disproportionately prohibitive. Clearly, therefore a similarly appeal needs to be made to Hornby to lobby for such a vehicle in their (Gresley) range. However, given that (a) they already have a catering vehicle in the range and (b  there are some well-known errors in existing vehicles then this is perhaps unlikely any time soon.

 

Another difficulty (perhaps) for a manufacturer is that the Gresley RFs were wider across the body than the ordinary passenger vehicles (in order to make use of every last inch of space in the kitchen area). Quite noticeable when looking at pictures of otherwise uniform(-ish!) rakes of Gresley vehicles. But I'm with you Coach in preferring to see one of these types of vehicles in an RTR range than the Thompson equivalent (and the RTP/RSP to go with it!)

 

Just out of interest (as I really don't know the answer to this one) which were the more numerous type - Gresley or Thompson RF?

Edited August 1, 2014 by LNER4479

[coachmann]

Larry,

          That's one of the most beautiful and 'natural' models of a Gresley catering vehicle I've ever seen, in any scale or gauge. In fact, it's one of the best carriages I've seen a picture of.

 

What are its origins, please? Is it a complete kit, modification, scratch-build, etc?

 

My only criticism/observation, if I may be so bold, is that it appears to be carried on standard bogies. The catering/pressure-ventilated/sleeping cars rode on heavy-duty bogies. If my crumbling eyesight cannot detect that your splendid car rides on the correct bogies, my apologies.  

Thanks Tony. I had quite forgotten it's origins but a search reminded me it was built using MJT etched sides on a Hornby Gresley donor vehicle, hence the lightweight bogies. (MJT 2862: LNER 61FT 6INCH RESTAURANT FIRST (D10C) 1928-1929).  http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2862.php

 

 It was stripped down and rebuilt recently and so I took the opportunity to paint the seats and curtains green in place of blue, which I was assured by some RMweb members was correct. A companion in the form of a D27A open third/diner (MJT 2859) was also built.

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by coachmann

[micklner]

 

 

Another difficulty (perhaps) for a manufacturer is that the Gresley RFs were wider across the body than the ordinary passenger vehicles (in order to make use of every last inch of space in the kitchen area). Quite noticeable when looking at pictures of otherwise uniform(-ish!) rakes of Gresley vehicles. But I'm with you Coach in preferring to see one of these types of vehicles in an RTR range than the Thompson equivalent (and the RTP/RSP to go with it!)

Hornby are ahead on this one as their Gresley Coach chassis floor is already oversize, a probable cause of the resultant lack of tumblehome on the coaches. A lot of comment has been made as to why they decided to make the Buffet version when a Resteraunt would have been a better choice.

[Guest 2750]

On an entirely different note. Two GNR Tank Engines destined to return home to Little Bytham on Sunday.

Tony provided me with three excellent colour photographs. Both locomotives displayed a lot brake dust on the underframe which I've tired to replicate.

 

 

[Tony Wright]

 

I've heard a rumour that Little Bytham was popular amongst voters in the poll to see what's going in the appropriate RMWeb issue of BRM. Since it's not actually on the 'layout thread', I'm very gratified. 

 

I've thus taken several more pictures for an 'update' article, the image above being one I 'rejected' because it's not eye-catching enough, despite the exciting subject matter. It shows A4 60034 LORD FARINGDON heading a southbound express, passing Class A2/2 60501 COCK O' THE NORTH on a King's Cross-West Riding/North Riding working, just north of the station. A Heljan 'Baby Deltic' trundles along the Down slow on its way back to Donny for attention. This last-mentioned item is by Heljan, just weathered by me. 

 

What I'm trying to do is to reproduce (with considerable help from others) a 'believable' overall scene. This requires reference to prototype material and a fair bit of research. In this, I try to take my own advice - follow prototype practice, even if you don't model an actual prototype location. I have to say (argumentative as always), though the standards of individual modelling and presentation apparent in some of the layouts featured recently in the press are exceptional, as accurate depictions of a 'real' railway they fall far short. Some of them show a total lack of understanding of prototype practices and a woeful ignorance (the word here used in its true context) and lack of observation of what is actually 'real'. 

 

Perhaps that's the way much of railway modelling is going now. Wonderful RTR and RTP offerings, but little in the way of prototype research when it comes to actually setting things up and making the creations believable. Still, if it makes the builders happy and punters at shows are entertained, then that's what's important, and it should be fun after all. Anyway, maybe it was always so. 

[CUTLER2579]

So the Apprentice will soon be starting work on his next Project then, Tony.

 

 http://www.dartcasti...uk/mjt/2862.php

 

We will look forward to your results Gilbert.

[davidw]

Dsc_8317.jpg

 

I've heard a rumour that Little Bytham was popular amongst voters in the poll to see what's going in the appropriate RMWeb issue of BRM. Since it's not actually on the 'layout thread', I'm very gratified. 

 

I've thus taken several more pictures for an 'update' article, the image above being one I 'rejected' because it's not eye-catching enough, despite the exciting subject matter. It shows A4 60034 LORD FARINGDON heading a southbound express, passing Class A2/2 60501 COCK O' THE NORTH on a King's Cross-West Riding/North Riding working, just north of the station. A Heljan 'Baby Deltic' trundles along the Down slow on its way back to Donny for attention. This last-mentioned item is by Heljan, just weathered by me. 

 

What I'm trying to do is to reproduce (with considerable help from others) a 'believable' overall scene. This requires reference to prototype material and a fair bit of research. In this, I try to take my own advice - follow prototype practice, even if you don't model an actual prototype location. I have to say (argumentative as always), though the standards of individual modelling and presentation apparent in some of the layouts featured recently in the press are exceptional, as accurate depictions of a 'real' railway they fall far short. Some of them show a total lack of understanding of prototype practices and a woeful ignorance (the word here used in its true context) and lack of observation of what is actually 'real'. 

 

Perhaps that's the way much of railway modelling is going now. Wonderful RTR and RTP offerings, but little in the way of prototype research when it comes to actually setting things up and making the creations believable. Still, if it makes the builders happy and punters at shows are entertained, then that's what's important, and it should be fun after all. Anyway, maybe it was always so. 

Wow that looks good!!!!

[Tony Wright]

On an entirely different note. Two GNR Tank Engines destined to return home to Little Bytham on Sunday.

Tony provided me with three excellent colour photographs. Both locomotives displayed a lot brake dust on the underframe which I've tired to replicate.

 

_MG_7675.jpg

 

_MG_7676.jpg

Looking very good Tom; many thanks.

 

I'll get some further pictures on Sunday.

[Allegheny1600]

Dsc_8317.jpg

 

I've heard a rumour that Little Bytham was popular amongst voters in the poll to see what's going in the appropriate RMWeb issue of BRM. Since it's not actually on the 'layout thread', I'm very gratified.

 

Hi Tony,

I'm not surprised LB is popular! It is a very fine model of a railway!

I love this picture by the way, it is reminiscent of the embankment behind my late great aunts bungalow at, . . . erm! Little Bytham!!! On Creeton Road after you've gone under the viaduct towards Creeton sometime later than when your LB is set, of course! (my Grandma lived at Creeton btw!). I would have very much loved to have seen all this in steam days.

Cheers,

John E.

[Tony Wright]

So the Apprentice will soon be starting work on his next Project then, Tony.

 

 http://www.dartcasti...uk/mjt/2862.php

 

We will look forward to your results Gilbert.

He will indeed, in fact construction has already started, though it's unlikely that anyone will be fired!

 

There are now five conversions complete (or just about) with sides from Bill Bedford, MJT and Comet being used. I say 'just about' because interior signage is yet to be applied (will it ever be?). If I were writing an interim report (rather than an end-of-term one, which I used to), it would state 'steady progress made'. This would include soldering sides together for the first time, making interiors, applying transfers, painting ends and roofs, and weathering the underframes.

 

In case folk think that I'm taking altruism too far, if I do things with/for friends, then that's my choice, and it is an antidote in some way to my depression. Yes, at the moment, I still butcher the sides, form the tumbleholmes (putting a slight crease in one side through my own monumental incompetence - since taken out), add the door furniture, glaze them and paint and line them, but the learning curve has been very steep, and gratifying. In time, the Apprentice will do more.

 

As I say, doing things (at least in part) for oneself is, to me, the most important aspect in railway modelling. Gilbert now has the beginnings of a set of carriages which, in a layout context, can be run with professionally-built ones without seeming too incongruous. That he can say he shared in the construction of them will give him, or should, some personal satisfaction. I know it does.

 

 

Here's one of the first conversions, produced as described (Gilbert has since weathered the underframes). Five down, six to go!

 

An extended account of how many of the conversions were done will be appearing (I think) in the next BRM Annual. 

[The Stationmaster]

Wow that looks good!!!!

And, some top notch modelling apart, one of the reasons it looks good is because it proves Tony's point - it looks real in the sense that it is completely believable.  Some railways/layouts which feature on this forum do exactly that and some of them are 'sort of freelance' in nature but even so you can believe them because they portray things and work like a real railway.

 

One big advantage of modern r-t-r is that it can give you the chance to concentrate on a lot more than just the trains.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...one I 'rejected' because it's not eye-catching enough, despite the exciting subject matter... 

Very evocative It took me back to lying in the long sun dried grass with Joe, Bill, Clive, Steve (and various others on occasion added to our core group) watching the ECML traffic: and the prospect of a wagon wheel and bottle of Tizer to enjoy in a quiet moment, with sausages and beans on toast to follow that evening at one of our respective parent's homes. (The parents must have organised this in some way which they either didn't tell us, or perhaps I never paid enough attention to remember.)

 

Being odious children, we are working out what is the worst insult we can throw at the diesel that will shortly roll past. We solemnly agreed to never allow diesels on our own layouts, I do recall that much. Though Joe and Bill had little choice, their father's clockwork O gauge offered no such deviations...

[CUTLER2579]

Regarding Post 1897. I love the Gresley Composite and the Colour looks superb as does the Gresley D10C diner in Larry's Post 1985.

 

Highest grade modelling.

 

Regards,Derek.

[Tony Wright]

And, some top notch modelling apart, one of the reasons it looks good is because it proves Tony's point - it looks real in the sense that it is completely believable.  Some railways/layouts which feature on this forum do exactly that and some of them are 'sort of freelance' in nature but even so you can believe them because they portray things and work like a real railway.

 

One big advantage of modern r-t-r is that it can give you the chance to concentrate on a lot more than just the trains.

Very kind of you to say so, Mike. And, if such comments come from a professional railwayman of high-standing and great experience, then I think I'm getting there, if slowly.

 

I agree entirely with what you say, and there are some splendidly realistic layouts on this forum (though my indolence means I don't look at very many). The best, in my opinion, is Bacup - by miles; it's not only a fantastic recreation of northern grime but, I believe, it's one man's work. By taking advantage of modern RTR, the builder has been able to concentrate, as you say, on a lot more than just the trains. But, it still needs an observant eye and diligent prototype research to make it so convincing, something too often lacking in some of the layouts I alluded to in an earlier post, some of which have a large amount of professional work in/on them. 

[Jason T]

Thanks very much for your kind comments Tony, and I am very glad that you have picked up on what to me was the most important thing, namely trying to create a realistic scene in which the locos, etc., are not the main focus. I am now concentrating more on the stock, including a few kit built locos (one of which, the A Class, is all but done but needs tweaking as although it runs, just, is a bit erratic).

 

The layout and more importantly I, owe in no small part, a debt of gratitude to the members of this forum for although it has been a one man effort, without the advice and knowledge so readily and kindly provided by the people on here, I fear it would have stalled some time ago.

 

Best regards,

 

Jason.

[robertcwp]

Here is a fairly short East Coast express from 1960 - the Norseman.  Looks like a Thompson RF and a Gresley RSP following, with the remainder Mark I stock, including a Diag 73 FO in front of the RF:

 

60008_8-6-60 by robertcwp, on Flickr

Edited August 2, 2014 by robertcwp

[Tony Wright]

Here is a fairly short East Coast express from 1960 - the Norseman.  Looks like a Thompson RF and a Gresley RSP following, with the remainder Mark I stock, including a Diag 73 FO in front of the RF:

 

60008_8-6-60 by robertcwp, on Flickr

Many thanks Robert,

 

A brilliant picture; so evocative.

 

Do you know where it is, please? The location might be contained somewhere but my ignorance of computer navigation militates against me. 

 

Judging by the signalling, it's obviously on the GNR and, by the apparent convergence of the slow lines to the left, the photographer is standing on a typical three-arch (low) overbridge. Taking into account the light (my BR documents are on loan at the moment), it looks to be an UP afternoon service. I have a good knowledge of ECML locations, but this beats me. It could be Stoke Bank, but where exactly? Not Corby (no bridge), not Bytham (wrong topography) and not Essendine (bridge too low). I'd plump for somewhere nearer the Home Counties. The big white building should give a clue, but I don't know.