Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench

[Miss Prism]

I'm so tempted to promote "Swindon Improved Wagon Red" as an official name...

[MikeOxon]

................................

 

 Then I sucked a solebar into the vacuum cleaner.

 

................................

Could have been worse.  I once did that to Blanche Wilcote.  It did not go down well

Edited February 1, 2017 by MikeOxon

[Stubby47]

Could have been worse.  I once did that to Blanche Wilcote.  It did not go down well

 

I had to look her up - I can see why she'd be upset.

[Edwardian]

Could have been worse.  I once did that to Blanche Wilcote.  It did not go down well

 

I had to look her up - I can see why she'd be upset.

 

Frankly I think you should both remain silent upon matters that may compromise a young lady's reputation!

 

Mind you, "solebar", I've never heard it called that before.

 

Still, one lives and learns ....

Edited February 1, 2017 by Edwardian

[MikeOxon]

Frankly I think you should both remain silent upon matters that may compromise a young lay's reputation!

 

Mind you, "solebar", I've never heard it called that before.

 

Still, one lives and learns ....

"Lay"    whose talking about reputations

[Edwardian]

"Lay"    whose talking about reputations

 

Quite!

 

I've just gone and made it a lot worse!

[NHY 581]

Could have been worse.  I once did that to Blanche Wilcote.  It did not go down well

 

 

 

I had to look her up - I can see why she'd be upset.

[Mikkel]

Mikkel,

 

Forgive the thread intrusion, these are my two along with two BB wagons. The Coopercraft kits use Morgan Design underframes. A few little things to finish before painting. These two will be getting tarped timber loads with the tarps following your suggestions (thank you)

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

DSC4936.jpg

 

Those underframes look very good! I see you changed the single round door patch to two, nicely done. That LNWR combo is popular, I have the same two (as yet unbuilt). 

 

Regarding the tarps, can I just post this video again that I found after having done my own wagon sheets. I haven't tried it yet but as far as I can see this method will also allow you to make removeable "shells", but with some very natural folds. It does have one drawback, namely that the tissue paper will be lighter and therefore may need some temporary way of mounting it to the wagon (bluetack?). Still, I think it looks better and easier than my method:

 

[Spitfire2865]

You mean you dont find enjoyment in fiddling with tiny knots on tiny strings to secure tiny tarps to tiny wagons?

Maybe I am crazy...

[Northroader]

The tarp. method looks good, but just tissue paper would give quite a thin sheet which is rather delicate. I go for a bit thicker paper, which is cut to size, painted on the outer face and lettered. Then left to soak in water for some time with some washing up liquid to soften up, followed by moulding into position like the video, including the rubber bands, although I don't worry with the cling film layer. Once it's dried out, several coats of flat varnish go on to help strengthen it up. The video method won't allow for lettering, and the level cut all round the base wouldn't happen with a rectangular sheet which had been draped over an irregular load.

One thing I find is the tarp. is better undersized, otherwise you don't get to see much of the wagon.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Northroader

[wagonman]

 

Those underframes look very good! I see you changed the single round door patch to two, nicely done. That LNWR combo is popular, I have the same two (as yet unbuilt). 

 

Regarding the tarps, can I just post this video again that I found after having done my own wagon sheets. I haven't tried it yet but as far as I can see this method will also allow you to make removeable "shells", but with some very natural folds. It does have one drawback, namely that the tissue paper will be lighter and therefore may need some temporary way of mounting it to the wagon (bluetack?). Still, I think it looks better and easier than my method:

 

 

 

Only problem is lack of lettering and ties. Be good for 'yard sheets' though...

[webbcompound]

although I don't worry with the cling film layer.

i think it stops the thing sticking to the wagon during construction

[Mikkel]

[snip] The video method won't allow for lettering [snip]

 

Only problem is lack of lettering and ties. Be good for 'yard sheets' though...

 

Ah, you have a point gentlemen. I'm tempted to see what would happen though if I combined my earlier experiments with this method. Blast, I thought I was done with wagon sheets for now 

[Penlan]

A (cropped) photo by John Sherratt at Stafford MR Show yesterday, shows some nicely modelled (IMO) tarps on a couple of wagons.  

John's interest was the North Staffs engine.

The layout is 'Wolfe Low', admittedly 'O' gauge, and thus easier to get the sheets looking right, but.....

 

[Penlan]

Just spotted (during the interval of the Italy vs Wales Rugby!!!) the 'West Cumberland' LNWR wagon behind the engine, one or other has strayed a bit.

[Mikkel]

Nice tarps but the engine steals the show for me! The more I look into the North Staffordshire the more I like it. In fact a Mousa Models NSR 3-plank kit arrived here a couple of days ago. Oh dear, where is this heading.
 
Anyway, I have been fitting DC1 brake gear to the latest GWR 4-plank Open - a.k.a. maltreating a Bill Bedford etch. Some will cringe, as the whole thing is superglued together and I was a bit, er, creative in some areas.  I did work to drawings and pictures in the GWR wagon bible, but some of the parts on the etch I couldn't identify or make fit - all my mistake no doubt.

 

 

 

For example I didn't get the angle of the ratchet quite right, and so I had to use a link to the swan neck lever that was a bit too fat and short, etc. 

 

 

Still, the exercise has helped me learn more about how these brakes worked than if I'd simply plunked on a pre-moulded lump of plastic or whitemetal brakegear, as I normally do. Sometimes the absence of instructions can be a learning experience!

 

Edited to clarify.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

PS: In case anyone is wondering what a DC1 brake looks like, here is Jim Champ's excellent illustrated introduction to GWR brakes: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html

[MikeOxon]

PS: In case anyone is wondering what a DC1 brake looks like, here is Jim Champ's excellent illustrated introduction to GWR brakes: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html

Whereas there seems to be plenty of published information about wagon brakes, I am struggling to find much about carriage brakes, especially in pre-vacuum days.  Of course, in those days, most coaches had no brakes at all

[Mikkel]

Whereas there seems to be plenty of published information about wagon brakes, I am struggling to find much about carriage brakes, especially in pre-vacuum days.  Of course, in those days, most coaches had no brakes at all

 

Never thought about that before Mike, but you're right - it's actually a bit odd that it's easier to find description of wagon brakes. A result of the modeller's love of wagon kits, perhaps?

[ChrisN]

I think you are right in saying before through braking coaches, apart from the brake coach had no brakes.  Wagons would have to have their brakes pinned down before say, going downhill but there is no mention, well no one mentioned it to me, that coaches had their brakes pinned down.  It is unusual though for someone to take a decent picture of a coach before through braking.

 

I am sure on my brake coach I did more than guess that it had four wagon type brakes and not clasp brakes but I have slept since then and cannot remember how I made my decision.

[Penlan]

I am struggling to find much about carriage brakes, especially in pre-vacuum days.  Of course, in those days, most coaches had no brakes at all

The LNWR had chain brakes on it's carriages, that is throughout the length of the train, or between sets of Brake Vans, a chain ran the length between the Brake Vans.   The Guard had a large wheel, somewhat like a capstan,  and wound the chain up to slow the train down.

 

The LNWR Society's Webb site has the following :

‘The Clark & Webb Chain Braking system under which a brake lever in the Brakesman’s van engaged a clutch to a friction drive wheel on the axle, which then wound in a chain connected to the brake levers on adjoining vehicles, applying the brakes.

The system had several problems. 

First, any one brake van could only work the brakes on no more than five or six vehicles, so several brake vans were required in an age when carriages were short and there might well be more than twenty carriages in a train.

Second if a chain broke, part of the train was without brakes.

Third, because several brake vans (and brakesmen) were required, the brakes might not operate simultaneously on all sections of the train.

Either of these last two problems could cause a train to part’.

 

In the HMRS publication 'West Coast Joint Stock' - a very useful book for those into LNWR coaches - it has a slightly different description of the application required to force the brakes on :

The brake van has both a 'normal' screw brake to apply the brakes of the Brake Van only, intended for a normal train stop.

From the brake Van there was also a chain carried on pulley wheels under the centre of the (connected) train and the brakes of the coaches.  The chain was fixed to a windlass mounted on a cross shaft mounted on trunions from the frame of the (brake) van, and on this shaft there was also mounted a friction wheel.  The shaft was connected to a link to the short arm of the bell crank lever which was pivoted on the frame, a heavy weight was mounted on the end of the long horizontal arm of the bell crank which was held up by a chain connected to a hand lever in the Brake Van.

There was also a trip lever, which could be activated by either the guard in his van, or the train driver by operating a lever on the engine, that applied the chain brakes (not sure how, but it's mentioned in the instructions).  This was NOT the 'Harrison' cord that ran along the eaves of the carriages to the Engine, and if pulled, activated one of the engines whistles...  The 1881 instructions goes on for 2.5 pages.

 

There's a lot more to it yet.......   But I bet you wish you hadn't asked now     

This is a cross section of the Brake Van chassis.  Obviously the arrangements on the ordinary coaches was a lot simpler, but I shall resist giving more info,

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

There's an article on the Clark & Webb chain Brake on page 308, Oct. 29th, 1875 'The Engineer',

which can be viewed here

Edited February 6, 2017 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

I had a look through the 'Kirtley' - i.e. 1844-1873 - chapter of Lacy & Dow's Midland Carriages and indeed non-brake-ended carriages had no brakes. Photos in the 'Clayton' chapters only show vehicles after fitting with continuous brakes however Drg. 27 of a 29ft composite carriage built by Metropolitan and Brown, Marshalls in 1874-5 (in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre) is also completely lacking in brakes. The only photo in the 'Kirtley' chapter showing an early braked vehicle is a Gloucester Wagon Co. brake van for the Spalding & Bourne, supposedly based on Midland designs. This has wagon-type wooden brakes; the linkage isn't very clear. A photo of an early Clayton 25ft brake van built by the Gloucester Wagon Co. in 1876 for Settle-Carlisle services has clasp brakes with iron blocks mounted on angled brake hangers with the fixed connecting links outside the wheels - like the LNWR drawing Penlan's posted, though with a rather simpler and more reliable method of applying the brakes!

 

There are also drawings of very early Birmingham & Gloucester carriages of the type with a guard's seat on either end of the roof. These show wagon-type brakes with a rod running to a crank at one end of the carriage and a screw rod running up to a crank handle at the guard's seat. So the guard for could apply the brakes if he was sitting at the right end. If I had that job, I'm sure I'd rather be at the trailing end with my back to the smoke and steam from the engine but maybe the company's regulations dictated otherwise!

 

LTC Rolt's account of the Armagh disaster in Red for Danger tells more than you really want to know about the subject.

 

Edited to correct 'clap brakes' to 'clasp brakes'. Pause for applause - not a sausage.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Compound2632

[MikeOxon]

There's a lot more to it yet.......   But I bet you wish you hadn't asked now     

 

Always pleased to learn, Penlan.  I'd forgotten that you started a thread on the subject a while ago, during which we discussed Alan Prior's '19th Century Railway Drawings in 4mm Scale' (1983).  I've found some useful diagrams of the clasp brakes on GWR coaches of around 1845, which i am working on, to provide a basis for my own models.

[Penlan]

.....I'd forgotten that you started a thread on the subject a while ago, .

So had I .......