East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

7 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I soldered these yesterday with my RSU and Carrs 179 solder cream. It helps that the white metal is quite chunky of course. Sorry for the awful pictures but no castings were harmed!

 

 

 

That's very interesting too Rich, though I have to admit that having researched RSUs I wasn't too keen.

May I ask though, is Carrs 179 Solder Cream designed to be used at around 179 degrees or is that just its brand name? If you do use it at 179 degrees, is the RSU's ability to avoid melting castings due to the extremely localised heat it produces?

And, is that what you use for the RSU when joining brass to brass and is it also what you use for WM to WM?

[Rob Pulham]

7 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Rob, I did know about 100 degree and it was on my list of things to try but has somehow slipped down the list (i.e. I forgot it existed!). I shall get some and try it.

Do you know if its ability to bond to both WM and brass is because of a different formula to both 70 and 145, or is it purely because of the ability to use it at a much lower temp than 145?

As a related question, does 145 in fact bond to 145 but it's never used because of the high temperature needed?

 

Hi Chaz,

 

I believe that it's a different formula to 70 degree. 

I am not sure for certain what you mean by does 145 in fact bond to 145 but it's never used because of the high temperature needed?

 

I think you are asking, can you solder whitemetal with 145? and the answer is yes, lots of people do. But you have to be very deft with the iron getting in and out without melting the surrounding whitemetal.

I have done the odd thing with 145 but only on very large castings which were less likely to melt.

[Bucoops]

7 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

That's very interesting too Rich, though I have to admit that having researched RSUs I wasn't too keen.

May I ask though, is Carrs 179 Solder Cream designed to be used at around 179 degrees or is that just its brand name? If you do use it at 179 degrees, is the RSU's ability to avoid melting castings due to the extremely localised heat it produces?

And, is that what you use for the RSU when joining brass to brass and is it also what you use for WM to WM?

 

I wouldn't be without mine now. I've been soldering (mostly electronics mind) for 30 years and the RSU is amazing. Not sure I would try it on electronics though.

 

179 is the melting point - yes I believe so - I only ever make contact with the brass, never the WM. When it starts smoking I know the cream is melting, so very shortly after I remove the power, but keep the probe in place to make sure nothing moves.

 

99.9% of brass to brass joints I use the RSU, either with 179 solder or when it's a bit awkward, the solder cream. I have 145 and 100 somewhere but never use them. WM to WM I use my iron with woods metal (nasty stuff but very effective!).

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Rob Pulham said:

Hi Chaz,

 

I believe that it's a different formula to 70 degree. 

I am not sure for certain what you mean by does 145 in fact bond to 145 but it's never used because of the high temperature needed?

 

I think you are asking, can you solder whitemetal with 145? and the answer is yes, lots of people do. But you have to be very deft with the iron getting in and out without melting the surrounding whitemetal.

I have done the odd thing with 145 but only on very large castings which were less likely to melt.

Aha, very interesting and yes, I was asking whether or not 145 can be used on WM and if the only reason it isn't is because of the temperature. I had the idea from somewhere or other that you couldn't use 145 on WM because the formula of the solder didn't bond to WM; clearly I'd gotten a wrong idea there.

Hm: food for thought.

Wonder if Santa stocks 100 degree solder...?🤔

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

I wouldn't be without mine now. I've been soldering (mostly electronics mind) for 30 years and the RSU is amazing. Not sure I would try it on electronics though.

 

179 is the melting point - yes I believe so - I only ever make contact with the brass, never the WM. When it starts smoking I know the cream is melting, so very shortly after I remove the power, but keep the probe in place to make sure nothing moves.

 

99.9% of brass to brass joints I use the RSU, either with 179 solder or when it's a bit awkward, the solder cream. I have 145 and 100 somewhere but never use them. WM to WM I use my iron with woods metal (nasty stuff but very effective!).

Very interesting too, but I'm not ready for the jump to RSU just yet - I must admit I really enjoy using an iron, always have - like you, for years on electrical work before models, as all the models I built as a youth were plastic.

I do also use 188 degree on brass sometimes - I wonder if that's at all similar to the 179 you're using?

So many formulas, so little time...!

In the pictures you posted Rich, of the things you'd just been soldering, the bogies are clear enough but are the other things battery boxes? And on those, are the brass parts just round the outer edges of the assemblies? It actually looks almost as if what you've made there are sandwiches of brass and WM... but I'm guessing that's an illusion and they're actually solid WM?

[Rob Pulham]

Chaz,

To potentially complicate life even further I have solders with melting points of: 295, 221, 179/180, 145, 100 and 70 that I know about (I say that because I have several other reels of solder whose specific melting points I have no idea of but they are resin cored so I tend to use them for electrics). The others I use mostly are the 179 and 145 but if I am adding a lot of detailed parts I add brass castings first with the microflame and 295 solder this mean that pretty much anything I add with the iron afterwards isn't going to make the castings fall off.

 

I too have an RSU that I was gifted by a friend and I must confess that I too wouldn't be without it now I have it. Mine is an ancient piece of kit built by Bernard Weller but as long as I keep the crocodile clip clean it works wonderfully.

[Bucoops]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Very interesting too, but I'm not ready for the jump to RSU just yet - I must admit I really enjoy using an iron, always have - like you, for years on electrical work before models, as all the models I built as a youth were plastic.

I do also use 188 degree on brass sometimes - I wonder if that's at all similar to the 179 you're using?

So many formulas, so little time...!

In the pictures you posted Rich, of the things you'd just been soldering, the bogies are clear enough but are the other things battery boxes? And on those, are the brass parts just round the outer edges of the assemblies? It actually looks almost as if what you've made there are sandwiches of brass and WM... but I'm guessing that's an illusion and they're actually solid WM?

 

They are indeed battery boxes - Mr Trice's ones - https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/resources/MJT 2811 Batt Boxes -early - Instructions.pdf

 

The battery boxes are hefty castings with very thin gauge brass bits.

 

179 has a small amount of silver in it to help it flow (and make it a tad pricey!) - although it does go a very long way. It also has lead in it like all decent solders. H&S be damned!

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/carrs/soldercreams/c1016

 

https://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SOLD1790410

 

I can categorically say that 179 adheres to white metal without any pre-tinning. I do of course scrub the oxidisation off first and solder as soon as possible before it has too much come back.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Bucoops

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Rob Pulham said:

Chaz,

To potentially complicate life even further I have solders with melting points of: 295, 221, 179/180, 145, 100 and 70 that I know about (I say that because I have several other reels of solder whose specific melting points I have no idea of but they are resin cored so I tend to use them for electrics). The others I use mostly are the 179 and 145 but if I am adding a lot of detailed parts I add brass castings first with the microflame and 295 solder this mean that pretty much anything I add with the iron afterwards isn't going to make the castings fall off.

 

I too have an RSU that I was gifted by a friend and I must confess that I too wouldn't be without it now I have it. Mine is an ancient piece of kit built by Bernard Weller but as long as I keep the crocodile clip clean it works wonderfully.

Good grief - I didn't realise there were quite so many different types! 

How do you control the temperature with the microflame, or is it a case of an experienced eye and knowing when to move away?

I have used the 188 I have for detail before, in an effort to stop such pieces being dislodged later when using 145 on further work but it's not always been successful and I've thought before now that it might be because there isn't enough difference between 188 and 145... Clearly I shall need to try the even higher ones, as well as the 100!

Thank you for the detailed info Rob.

[Chas Levin]

8 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

They are indeed battery boxes - Mr Trice's ones - https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/resources/MJT 2811 Batt Boxes -early - Instructions.pdf

 

The battery boxes are hefty castings with very thin gauge brass bits.

 

179 has a small amount of silver in it to help it flow (and make it a tad pricey!) - although it does go a very long way. It also has lead in it like all decent solders. H&S be damned!

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/carrs/soldercreams/c1016

 

https://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SOLD1790410

 

 

 

Yes, I've seen - and tried - the lead-free stuff where I work and it's appalling so I'm certainly with you on the need for lead.

 

I wonder if the 188 I have also contains a little silver, as it certainly wasn't cheap, though I can't now remember where I bought it - probably the late lamented Eileen's.

 

I'll try some 179, good to support Hobby Holidays too, though I saw he's thinking about the future too...

 

Can you use the solder cream with an iron? I wonder whether it might be good for sweating pieces together... 🤔

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Yes, I've seen - and tried - the lead-free stuff where I work and it's appalling so I'm certainly with you on the need for lead.

 

I wonder if the 188 I have also contains a little silver, as it certainly wasn't cheap, though I can't now remember where I bought it - probably the late lamented Eileen's.

 

I'll try some 179, good to support Hobby Holidays too, though I saw he's thinking about the future too...

 

Can you use the solder cream with an iron? I wonder whether it might be good for sweating pieces together... 🤔

 

It's very useful for laminating bits - with an RSU or iron :) just don't think about the price!

[Chas Levin]

One wagon up and running, nicely square and a very smooth runner:

 

 

 

 

The only other details I could find are the cast iron plates - the GNR number and one reading 'Load 10 tons distributed' - which I'll print and glue on after painting; likewise the floor, which is going to be from Poppys Woodtech real wood flooring.

 

Priming will have to wait until the weather's a bit drier, so it's just about time to start looking at the next project, the Sentinel Cammell railcar kit!

 

In the meantime, Merry Christmas to everyone! 👋🎅🎁🥂🎉

[Chas Levin]

I hope everyone had a good Christmas?

 

We did, partly because the rain cleared up on Christmas Eve morning and I was able to prime the GNR wagon:

 

 

[Chas Levin]

With some paint (Phoenix Precision's GNR Freight Brown) applied, the GNR open wagon starts to look a little more 'GNR-ish':

 

 

 

 

I would have liked to have done this wagon with the early 'G Northern R' lettering but as far as I can learn (with the very kind and detailed help of Steve White of the GNRS) the 6 plank type of open wagpon didn't appear before about 1908 and the lettering had changed to the larger 'GN' somewhere within the period of 1898 to 1900 (though if anyone has any photos or documentation to show otherwise please would you post it here and I'll make sure Steve sees it as he'd be very interested too).

Edited January 5, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

A spot of wood colouring yesterday, on the GN wagon sides and floor (a wooden one from Poppy's) and the body of the IBG Lancia truck I'm also building (details on that build over on Western Thunder), because mixing up the various colour washes seems more efficient for the two at once:

 

 

[Chas Levin]

After a coat or two of matt varnish for the inside planking and the glueing in of the floor, the 6 plank wagon will be set to one side to await the arrival from POWsides of some GNR transfers that will hopefully include wagon plates, saving me the necessity of printing them myself.

 

In the meantime, it's that exciting moment when we can have a look at the next project, the Nu-Cast LNER Sentinel-Cammell Railcar 🥳 that was the subject of much livery-related discussion back in the summer, both on here and on the dedicated S-C Railcar thread that discussion spawned, here: 

 

This is what I have so far, all unsorted: 

 

 

 

The kit itself looks to be complete but if anyone looking at these picturess can see anything obviously amiss, please let me know.

I'll follow @jwealleans advice and make a new floor from copperclad, though I'm not so sure about a new roof... Likewise the MJT white metal curtains, which seemed like a good idea at the time but since discovering the possiblity that both the Black Beetle and Tenshodo bogies may be under-powered and that every gramme may count, I'll probably go with the 3D printed ones and use the metal set for a lightweight coach that needs to ballasting.

I'd also like to do something a little more realistic in appearance than that rather weak-kneed looking white plastic thing...

The transfers shown there won't be used either, partly because they don't have any of the names I plan to choose from, partly because of the scale being slightly out, as per earlier discussion on this thread back in June.

Time to do some reading too...

 

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

After a coat or two of matt varnish for the inside planking and the glueing in of the floor, the 6 plank wagon will be set to one side to await the arrival from POWsides of some GNR transfers that will hopefully include wagon plates, saving me the necessity of printing them myself.

 

In the meantime, it's that exciting moment when we can have a look at the next project, the Nu-Cast LNER Sentinel-Cammell Railcar 🥳 that was the subject of much livery-related discussion back in the summer, both on here and on the dedicated S-C Railcar thread that discussion spawned, here: 

 

This is what I have so far, all unsorted: 

 

 

 

The kit itself looks to be complete but if anyone looking at these picturess can see anything obviously amiss, please let me know.

I'll follow @jwealleans advice and make a new floor from copperclad, though I'm not so sure about a new roof... Likewise the MJT white metal curtains, which seemed like a good idea at the time but since discovering the possiblity that both the Black Beetle and Tenshodo bogies may be under-powered and that every gramme may count, I'll probably go with the 3D printed ones and use the metal set for a lightweight coach that needs to ballasting.

I'd also like to do something a little more realistic in appearance than that rather weak-kneed looking white plastic thing...

The transfers shown there won't be used either, partly because they don't have any of the names I plan to choose from, partly because of the scale being slightly out, as per earlier discussion on this thread back in June.

Time to do some reading too...

 

Would any of the high level kits power bogies do the job?

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

Would any of the high level kits power bogies do the job?

They would in terms of power (with the right motor) but the problem is the wheelbase, which isn't right. It's definitely something worth looking at though, altering that wheelbase and that's one of the options Jonanthan Wealleans said he was also going to look at too for his next build, so you're in good company with the suggestion.

[Jon4470]

I had a brief conversation last year with Chris at Highlevel about any suitable chassis/bogies that he might have. Unfortunately, nothing was available without fairly large mods. I came to the conclusion that scratchbuilding some frames was probably just as easy. I think Chris would be able to help with selecting appropriate gears…..although I’m think about using some cheap Chinese motors with gears attached. (See Mike Edges workbench for some recent examples)

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

9 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

I had a brief conversation last year with Chris at Highlevel about any suitable chassis/bogies that he might have. Unfortunately, nothing was available without fairly large mods. I came to the conclusion that scratchbuilding some frames was probably just as easy. I think Chris would be able to help with selecting appropriate gears…..although I’m think about using some cheap Chinese motors with gears attached. (See Mike Edges workbench for some recent examples)

 

Jon

Hm - thanks for posting that Jon, I was about to contact him and ask the same thing! It's a 28mm wheelbase, I just double-checked the Beetle and Tenshodo I have here (both came with the kit, so presumably the previous owner was catering for all possibilities).

One thing I don't quite understand though: this kit's been around for a long time and there seems to have been an accepted tradition of using a Black Beetle or similar unit, so some people must have done that, musn't they? Does that mean that there are quite a few Railcar models out there that are very underpowered?

Mine is unlikely to see service on a large layout (even allowing for future post-house-move plans to enlarge things somewhat) or to run for very extended periods, so I am tempted to see how it performs with what I already have.

I haven't looked at how the power bogie is mounted but presumably it can be removed and - if necessary - swapped out for something else, if it does turn out to be unacceptable? 🤔

[micklner]

7 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Hm - thanks for posting that Jon, I was about to contact him and ask the same thing! It's a 28mm wheelbase, I just double-checked the Beetle and Tenshodo I have here (both came with the kit, so presumably the previous owner was catering for all possibilities).

One thing I don't quite understand though: this kit's been around for a long time and there seems to have been an accepted tradition of using a Black Beetle or similar unit, so some people must have done that, musn't they? Does that mean that there are quite a few Railcar models out there that are very underpowered?

Mine is unlikely to see service on a large layout (even allowing for future post-house-move plans to enlarge things somewhat) or to run for very extended periods, so I am tempted to see how it performs with what I already have.

I haven't looked at how the power bogie is mounted but presumably it can be removed and - if necessary - swapped out for something else, if it does turn out to be unacceptable? 🤔

Are there that many out there ??. There appears to be very few owners on this forum??. Very few photos of the web. They were unavailable for years until recently.

I have one , I must dig mine out and confirm what bogie is actually fitted. It see little use after the spud stripping gear saga .

[Chas Levin]

8 minutes ago, micklner said:

Are there that many out there ??. There appears to be very few owners on this forum??. Very few photos of the web. They were unavailable for years until recently.

I have one , I must dig mine out and confirm what bogie is actually fitted. It see little use after the spud stripping gear saga .

You did definitely build one Mick, 'Hope' I think, because I remember seeing the photos somewhere at some point, not that long ago (i.e. I saw the photos recently, though you might have posted them ages ago).

What was the 'spud stripping gear saga'?

[micklner]

As said before , when I first built my one , yes I still have "Hope" quite a apt name!!.

 

Placed on track it struggled for about six inches to a foot and a nice schreeching/wirring sound was emitted and it was dead. The tiny plastic gears had stripped. I bought another gear set and the same result. It went in the bin at that point !!

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Are there that many out there ??. There appears to be very few owners on this forum??. Very few photos of the web. They were unavailable for years until recently.

Also Mick, to pick up on your first point, there don't seem to be that many Railcar models it's true, but there are a fair number - I've collected photos of about ten, as an aid for building mine, though as I write this, I realise that's not very many, is it?

[micklner]

I have looked at Hope's power bogie.

No obvious markings thereon , the motor looks like a Mashima Can in a Black plastic casing with Brass gears. It is happilly spinning its wheels if power is applied too fast, and moves well. No obvious way to remove the bogie from the body, so I leaving well alone. It was fitted about ten years or more ago.

It does'nt look like a Bull Ant or Black Beetle from current photos on the Internet.

[Jon4470]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Hm - thanks for posting that Jon, I was about to contact him and ask the same thing! It's a 28mm wheelbase, I just double-checked the Beetle and Tenshodo I have here (both came with the kit, so presumably the previous owner was catering for all possibilities).

One thing I don't quite understand though: this kit's been around for a long time and there seems to have been an accepted tradition of using a Black Beetle or similar unit, so some people must have done that, musn't they? Does that mean that there are quite a few Railcar models out there that are very underpowered?

Mine is unlikely to see service on a large layout (even allowing for future post-house-move plans to enlarge things somewhat) or to run for very extended periods, so I am tempted to see how it performs with what I already have.

I haven't looked at how the power bogie is mounted but presumably it can be removed and - if necessary - swapped out for something else, if it does turn out to be unacceptable? 🤔

Hi Chas

 

As I understand it, the power unit that worked best was the Bull Ant. I don’t think that this is available anymore though.

 

The original power unit is removable- it pivots near the roof. I used the supplied K’s motor and that had insufficient power/ adhesion to power the bogie on its own - let alone the railcar😀. At that point I gave up!

 

There is plenty of space for a very large motor. It is sorting out the gear train that I’m not sure about ( my lack of knowledge really - probably not really difficult). I think it is important that the drive is on two axles of the bogie and not just the one axle as designed. A horizontal double ended motor with worm and gear might work, or maybe a vertical motor and then some gears to transfer the rotation through 90 degrees. 

 

Another possibility might be to have two powered bogies?

 

Some options ….but no solutions yet🙂

 

Jon