Heljan LNER Tango 2-8-0

[CUTLER2579]

Quote"I think the pricing used from the Hornby comparisons are incorrect and misleading. First, there is no R4531D that I can find. It is not in the 2014 Hornby catalogue nor on the Hornby on-line shop. the only items showing in both for this coach are R4531B and C full price £48.99 as it was when listed in the 2013 catalogue. These have just been released, having been delayed from 2012. The previous versions R4531 and R4531A were priced at £36.49, so I make the price rise £12.50 or an increase of 34.25%. This is bad enough but nowhere near the 50% indicated. At the actual increase, R4531D, if it is released in 2015 might be £65.77, not £81.00. The O2 is going to be expensive, so lets not try and justify it by comparisons. Recent Heljan items have been expensive, but are realistic as they are based on prototypes that are unlikely to sell in large numbers and because of this Heljan have made low number production runs- Class 16, AC Railbus as examples. I'm not sure the O2 fits that category as it is a mainline freight engine, with the potential for high interest. Does the price worry me, yes, as with normal Heljan practice it is likely to rise steeply at release, but I've ordered two " Quote.

 

 

I got the information about R4531D in an e-mail from a retailer and whilst that may be a Red Herring,  how about this from Hattons today :- Hornby R3114 Class B1 Thompson 4-6-0  61270 in BR black with late crest  £115.00. (or from the Hornby on-line shop @ £129.99).

Heljan 3903  Class 02/2 Tango 2-8-0 in BR black with late crest Pre order Price £148.00

Heljan 3904  OO Gauge  Class 02/2 Tango 2-8-0 in BR black with early emblem - weathered  Pre order Price £156.00.
 

I see no problem with comparisons as that is a way of purchasing many things -- Houses for example. A vendor tries to sell a house for £300,000 while an identical house has been valued at £250,000 a buyer may feel the dearer house is the one he wants to purchase,but a lender will look at the value of other similar properties and value the house nearer to £250,000 and lend accordingly.

 

The O2 is in your opinion going to be expensive, I am not trying to  justify it by making these comparisons. I am pointing out the relative difference in price between two products that as an Eastern Region "oo" gauge modeller I would undoubtedly purchase. The B1 is an outstanding model in my opinion and I believe the Heljan O2 will be an equal to it,at least.

 

If as you fear the price increase's excessively after release then the situation becomes different but at the prices above I think my prayers may yet be answered if Heljan decide to make the O2 their first BR Steam release in "O" Gauge  and quadruple the  "OO" price.

Regards.

Edited March 31, 2014 by CUTLER2579

[rembrow]

Quote"I think the pricing used from the Hornby comparisons are incorrect and misleading. First, there is no R4531D that I can find. It is not in the 2014 Hornby catalogue nor on the Hornby on-line shop. the only items showing in both for this coach are R4531B and C full price £48.99 as it was when listed in the 2013 catalogue. These have just been released, having been delayed from 2012. The previous versions R4531 and R4531A were priced at £36.49, so I make the price rise £12.50 or an increase of 34.25%. This is bad enough but nowhere near the 50% indicated. At the actual increase, R4531D, if it is released in 2015 might be £65.77, not £81.00. The O2 is going to be expensive, so lets not try and justify it by comparisons. Recent Heljan items have been expensive, but are realistic as they are based on prototypes that are unlikely to sell in large numbers and because of this Heljan have made low number production runs- Class 16, AC Railbus as examples. I'm not sure the O2 fits that category as it is a mainline freight engine, with the potential for high interest. Does the price worry me, yes, as with normal Heljan practice it is likely to rise steeply at release, but I've ordered two " Quote.

 

 

I got the information about R4531D in an e-mail from a retailer and whilst that may be a Red Herring,  how about this from Hattons today :- Hornby R3114 Class B1 Thompson 4-6-0  61270 in BR black with late crest  £115.00. (or from the Hornby on-line shop @ £129.99).

Heljan 3903  Class 02/2 Tango 2-8-0 in BR black with late crest Pre order Price £148.00

Heljan 3904  OO Gauge  Class 02/2 Tango 2-8-0 in BR black with early emblem - weathered  Pre order Price £156.00.

 

I see no problem with comparisons as that is a way of purchasing many things -- Houses for example. A vendor tries to sell a house for £300,000 while an identical house has been valued at £250,000 a buyer may feel the dearer house is the one he wants to purchase,but a lender will look at the value of other similar properties and value the house nearer to £250,000 and lend accordingly.

 

The O2 is in your opinion going to be expensive, I am not trying to  justify it by making these comparisons. I am pointing out the relative difference in price between two products that as an Eastern Region "oo" gauge modeller I would undoubtedly purchase. The B1 is an outstanding model in my opinion and I believe the Heljan O2 will be an equal to it,at least.

 

If as you fear the price increase's excessively after release then the situation becomes different but at the prices above I think my prayers may yet be answered if Heljan decide to make the O2 their first BR Steam release in "O" Gauge  and quadruple the  "OO" price.

Regards.

I don't disagree with pricing comparisons and that was not the point I was making. Your base pricing example from Hornby was inaccurate and led to an inaccurate conclusion. One other big difference with Hornby and Heljan is that Hornby tend to hold prices to the catalogued price when the item was announced, so that products delayed from 2012 that are now being released were sold to retailers at the 2012 price.

My experience with Heljan is that their pricing increases heavily during the development of the product. An example is the Hunslet Class 05, announced at the same time as the O2. Hattons were advertising at £77 on first listing, it is now £105, so some 40% increase in less than a year and it probably has another year to go before release.So my experience is that as a buyer, I have to expect a significant increase in the cost, compared to my expectations when the model was announced.

 

 I have preordered an 05 from Hattons at the lower price, but I don't know if it will be maintained, as further increases by Heljan are likely to make my preorder price below cost. I would like to buy a second, now that a different version has been announced, but the increased price is putting me off.

 

 I have preordered the O2 in order to try and 'fix' the price, but again there is no guarantee. Heljan have consistently been marked down for retail price, on one model magazines new release review system, as they are now doing with Hornby for their pricing policy. Heljan are inconsistent, as the recently released Class 33 has come in way below the price you would expect from them, at under £100 for a discounted value. So as always it is a personal judgement decision on how much you're prepared to pay

[it's-er]

Can we keep this thread to Heljan's forthcoming LNER O2, please? It is veering off into Heljan's and Hornby's respective pricing and other policies. Personally I an keen to see the first photos of a pre production sample of the O2. John

[CUTLER2579]

rembrow,

whilst actually supporting your argument ,when I checked the "Hattons site last night the following prices are shown.:-

Heljan 3903  Class 02/2 Tango 2-8-0 in BR black with late crest Pre order Price £148.00

Heljan 3904  OO Gauge  Class 02/2 Tango 2-8-0 in BR black with early emblem - weathered  Pre order Price £156.00.

 

Regards,Cutler.

[rembrow]

I've picked up my copy of the May edition of Model Rail today and there is a two page spread, devoted to Heljan proposed 'oo' gauge items. This includes the first CAD images I've seen for the 02, the Class 05 diesel shunter and GWR pannier

[Stevelewis]

I note  that  HATTONS  have   listed  the  price  for  the  04  at  £148.00  which  I think  its  quite  reasonable

[JaymzHatstand]

I thought it was most reasonable too, especially after seeing the initial CADs, and plenty of prototype photos. Hence why they now have a pre order for one!

 

I received an email from then a day or so ago saying that the one I have on order, 63954, will be supplied with a stepped tender. Flush versions will also be available.

 

Cheers

 

J

 

Edited to add loco number

Edited May 10, 2014 by JaymzHatstand

[BrushVeteran]

I would like to point out that the initial releases of the O2 will be #3910-3913,the O2/3 with stepped LNER Group Standard tender and #3920-3923, O2/4 with flush and stepped LNER Group Standard tender. The O2/2 will be a future version for which tooling is already in hand, i.e. low running plate and GN tender.

 

The O2 Tango is a complex subject, with five distinct variations, and it is the intention to produce all versions, but not all at once. The project is proceding nicely and on target so far. It is at a stage whereby colour layouts are being produced. The tooling for this model is a more lengthy process because there was more of a mix and match of components within all variants meaning that everything has to be tooled initially to ensure good fitment and compatability. At least this way there is every chance of producing the complete class, but as always, each variant will be of limited production runs to ensure that sales warrant the investment.

 

Once we have received satisfactory EP samples I will post some images to show current progress.

[spackz]

Thanks for the info Grahame, the O2s are my favourite freight locomotive so have 2 of the O2/4s on order, and in preperation for their arrival have just ordered the limited edition Hattons weathered O4. Im especially looking forward for the O2/2 version though.

 

Have Hattons guessed at the model numbers for the O2/2 version? I dont know if to preorder or not.

[BrushVeteran]

Thanks for the info Grahame, the O2s are my favourite freight locomotive so have 2 of the O2/4s on order, and in preperation for their arrival have just ordered the limited edition Hattons weathered O4. Im especially looking forward for the O2/2 version though.

 

Have Hattons guessed at the model numbers for the O2/2 version? I dont know if to preorder or not.

Yes Spackz, Hattons are correct with the catalogue numbers for the O2/2 version, #3900-3903. The O2/1 version is destined be in the #3930-3913 series and finally the O2/4 (rebuild from O2/1 & O2/2) will be #3940-3.  At this stage this is what is planned but may be subject to change.

[wilks]

I would like to point out that the initial releases of the O2 will be #3910-3913,the O2/3 with stepped LNER Group Standard tender and #3920-3923, O2/4 with flush and stepped LNER Group Standard tender. The O2/2 will be a future version for which tooling is already in hand, i.e. low running plate and GN tender.

 

The O2 Tango is a complex subject, with five distinct variations, and it is the intention to produce all versions, but not all at once. The project is proceding nicely and on target so far. It is at a stage whereby colour layouts are being produced. The tooling for this model is a more lengthy process because there was more of a mix and match of components within all variants meaning that everything has to be tooled initially to ensure good fitment and compatability. At least this way there is every chance of producing the complete class, but as always, each variant will be of limited production runs to ensure that sales warrant the investment.

 

Once we have received satisfactory EP samples I will post some images to show current progress.

 

Will Heljan produce an O2/4 with the Great Northern tender?

[Tony Wright]

There are images of the prior-assessment Heljan O2 models on Wright Writes..................

[knapper]

There are images of the prior-assessment Heljan O2 models on Wright Writes..................

Just to save people having to hunt for this, this is the post mentined:http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/?p=1515534

[Market65]

Hi. The Gresley 02 really is looking most promising indeed. I just have not yet decided which one to order, but it will be a BR liveried example. Really looking forward to this from Heljan.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[gr.king]

The samples in the cabinet at the NEC yesterday would have looked far more impressive had somebody at least taken the trouble to clip the rear of the boiler and the cab down onto the running plate in the case of the loco with the side-window cab. It looked to me rather as if it had been thrown in by somebody possessing little knowledge and little interest in the matter of how to check and handle a model.

[Wolf27]

From Warley today, not necassarily my thing but looks ok to my untrained eye.

 

S1730021 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

S1730022 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

S1730023 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

cheers

 

Shane

[gr.king]

Showing just what I said about the bodywork standing clear of the running plate at the rear of the near loco. Looks like the running plate is bent on the far loco too......

[MikeParkin65]

Rods are on upside down  aren't they?

[gr.king]

I presume some of the other faults are from excessive un-trained handling of the pre-production sample. Sagging line of the boiler handrails, smokebox door handrail missing, chimney rim looking as if it has been thrown at a brick wall.....

[coachmann]

A sorry looking display model right enough, but I mainly hope that Heljan have sorted out their motor problem after reading of lock-ups on their Garratt.

[davidw]

I wonder if it's the  same one that Tony Wright had. Upside down coupling rods etc...

[jonny777]

I'll turn a blind eye to the imperfections at the moment, and wait for the production locos.

 

At least they capture the look of the engines that used to pass my parents house on the High Dyke - Frodingham workings when I was a boy.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Those display models look like they have rolled around loose in a box, the displaced dust shield on the pony truck propbably indicating they haven't been run since either, assuming they are motored. However, they do look right in essentials; so as Jonny 777, I live in hope. (Two Doncaster/GNR designs for release in 2015, has such a thing ever occurred before?)

... I mainly hope that Heljan have sorted out their motor problem after reading of lock-ups on their Garratt.

The little I know of their HO steam models from exhibitions, they perform well enough. Not having bought a Garratt this is strictly guesswork, but based on my own earlier experiences of two worm drive bogies of the Triang and Airfix species in single diesel locos carrying as much weight as they could. These did not burn out, the old open frame motor of generically the same design as the XO4 stood up to it, but they wore their gears much faster than when operated as single locos on half the load. I put this down at the time to the speed  mismatch between the mechanisms increasing the force on the gear faces. Could that be what is happening on the B-G, but it shows up as motor burn out rather than gear train wear?

[BrushVeteran]

The samples that were on display at Warley had only just been unpacked from China and had not been given the'once over'. Unfortunately in these circumstances this does little to 'boost the confidence' of the product and there will now be a long period of examination and testing to ensure the last set of modifications have taken place. It would appear from the photographs that the'fix' for the loose cab superstucture has also not been yet achieved.

 

I think this is going to be a steeper learning curve than originally thought but we will get there.............no point in rushing it, I'll need something to do during these dark evenings!

[Tony Wright]

I wonder if it's the  same one that Tony Wright had. Upside down coupling rods etc...

David,

 

Since I didn't visit Warley and haven't spoken to Heljan recently, the chassis of the nearer one (with upside-down rods) might be the same one I examined but not the body, for clearly this is an O2/4 (note smokebox extension); the one I saw at my home with a GS tender was an O2/3. The fit of the cab on the one I photographed was also much better. 

 

I'm ambivalent about pre-production samples because that's exactly what they are, and should be judged as no more than an indication of what's to come, not an exact example of what will be produced. If they were, then they'd be production samples, and if things were wrong then worthy of criticism.

 

I think some of the above comments are a little harsh because most won't know of what's actually been taking place. Though my role is no more than an advisor in this project (I have no professional links with Heljan), I can tell you honestly of the hours of diligent research which have taken place, both face-to-face and via e-mail, in order to ensure that the finished locos will be as good as anything else available RTR in steam-outline. Yes, as can be seen from the pictures, there are issues to be sorted out, and the shots did the locos few favours. However, these issues will be resolved I know.

 

What I'd finally say is that when the pre-production models were brought to me for assessment in the summer, having watched both of them haul more-than-prototypical loads on Little Bytham, I'd have been delighted to have kept them, sorted out the minor appearance issues and run them as legitimate additions to my stud. Anyone who might have fears over the eventual running of these locos should have them completely allayed.