Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway

[steve45]

The last pic looks like the approach road to Corfe goods shed, is that where it's staying ??

Second pic has the castle in the distance

[dibber25]

There is one crucial difference between the T3 and the T9 in that the T3 basically has its original appearance whereas the T9 is very obviously the Urie superheated version and therefore in many respects displays a later and very different appearance.  Together the two illustrate LSWR development, and separately the T3 illustrates, almost uniquely in the National Collection the original appearance of its time - and even more particularly the appearance of Adams' tender engine designs (it being the sole surviving Adams designed tender engine).

 

Thus it clearly has historical importance (assuming you regard uniqueness in surviving  and illustration of design development as of historical importance) as well as being representative of a particular period and style of British locomotive design.  If we didn't have it then things would be simple but the important thing is that we do have it and it therefore - in my view - it remains worthy of continuing preservation and in turn that implies to me (in nobody else) that it should be properly looked after and cared for in a suitable covered site as part of a National Collection representative of the history of the locomotives which worked our railways.   Nothing wrong with loaning it, subject to appropriate safeguards, but 'giving it away' (as seems to be the case) seems to rank alongside throwing out babies with the bath water.

 

incidentally the NRM makes great play about not restoring various locomotives to working order 'because of their historical significance or the significance of various of their components'  and I don't doubt the same caveat should be applied to the T3 for the same reasons.  So I return to one of the original questions in this thread 'what are Swanage going to do with it?' and add - and how will they preserve and conserve its historical features and its overall condition?

There is a Code of Practice for Museums (accessible on line) regarding the disposal of items and the Science Museum Group signed up to it, yet the NRM has failed to follow that code of practice in several major respects concerning openness PRIOR to disposal, seeking alternative locations and keeping the specialist press and other interested parties informed. The purpose of the CoP is to avoid exactly this type of debacle, and to avoid damage to the museum's reputation and the reputation of museums generally. Assessing the relevance or significance of the item is a separate issue. If you decide it is of no significance, and you no longer want it, you still have to go through the CoP process BEFORE you dispose of the item. (CJL)

[PaulRhB]

James the red engine ?

 

Where was the T3 stored for 20 years post the 1948 exhibition ?, there's some pretty rough looking pictures of it at Eastleigh, stored outside on the net.

 

As no one else has said it, I'll say it...

Congratulations to Swanage, that's a real nice appropriate machine you have there.

Several of us have said we think it's a good location but also that there isn't anywhere to put it under cover without compromising existing restoration activity.

 

Even the press release says they "hope" to find a suitable place to display it!

"Thanks to the T3's ownership being transferred to the Swanage Railway, we hope to suitably display the locomotive to the public and illustrate a period of important London and South Western Railway history that has previously not been possible. Our primary aim is No. 563's conservation and preservation."

 

Neither side has put forward a public plan and people are concerned for the condition as it is a historic loco. As a life member I get the latest info in the magazine and I know that there are other big projects still to be fully funded so where's the money to create display space for this? I also know there's been some dismay in the operating dept over the deal done on the Bunch moguls, one of which they are paying for and isn't even running. Did they just snap it up before it went elsewhere? It all just seems a little rushed and a conspicuous lack of a plan in the press release that makes me worry.

Edited April 14, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Horsetan]

....Neither side has put forward a public plan and people are concerned for the condition as it is a historic loco. As a life member I get the latest info in the magazine and I know that there are other big projects still to be fully funded so where's the money to create display space for this?.... Did they just snap it up before it went elsewhere? It all just seems a little rushed and a conspicuous lack of a plan in the press release that makes me worry.

Plan? What plan?

[bike2steam]

Second pic has the castle in the distance

Er yes, normally a good promotional photo spot for incoming loan locos, at the road to rail exchange siding at Norden.

[bike2steam]

James the red engine ?

 

Where was the T3 stored for 20 years post the 1948 exhibition ?, there's some pretty rough looking pictures of it at Eastleigh, stored outside on the net.

 

 

Clapham, Brighton, and Stratford.

[bescotbeast]

Dear Curator of the National Railway Museum.

 

In view of the confirmed disposal of the T3, I am writing to ask if you would gift to me one of your exhibits preferably the 9F 'Evening Star'.

 

It does not it with the modern DisneyLand image of the museum and I am able to offer the following:

 

A large back garden which I have measured and it will fit.

 

​Ex-Curtainsider lorry trailer tilts which I can put over the locomotive if it rains.

 

Mrs 32a's enthusiasm with potted plants which can adorn the locomotive.

 

Facilities for the public to view by strategically cut viewing holes in my garden fence. 

 

As a precedent has been set, I hope the reply will not be as unprintable as that when I asked for a Supermarine Spitfire to display.

 

 

Yours (tongue in cheek)

Funniest post this year

[bescotbeast]

What do you mean funny, i'm dead serious you know.  I have even allowed Mrs 32a to buy the pot plants to be ready.

In that case, can I make a provisional booking for your first open day?

[Davey]

Well 563 is now at Swanage.

 

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news/detail/unique-victorian-steam-locomotive-arrives-on-swanage-railway-thanks-to-the-national-railway-museum

 

With reference to the pictures posted on the Swanage Railway website, is that somebody's idea of cheap streamlining?

 

With that shroud on, it reminds me of a picture I saw many years ago of a French locomotive, I think it was a 4-4-0 with a square chimney, which somebody had made a crude attempt at streamlining.

 

Davey

Edited April 15, 2017 by Davey

[EddieB]

 

With that shroud on, it reminds me of a picture I saw many years ago of a French locomotive, I think it was a 4-4-0 with a square chimney, which somebody had made a crude attempt at streamlining.

 

Davey

This one?

 

 

This is what the PLM were about in 1900 - semi-streamlined 4-4-0s with "wind cutter" cabs.  Quite elegant to my eyes!

[Loconuts]

This one?

 

S89027.jpg

 

This is what the PLM were about in 1900 - semi-streamlined 4-4-0s with "wind cutter" cabs.  Quite elegant to my eyes!

 

That reminds me of a Citroen 2CV, cheap and cheerful. 

[Davey]

This one?

 

S89027.jpg

 

This is what the PLM were about in 1900 - semi-streamlined 4-4-0s with "wind cutter" cabs.  Quite elegant to my eyes!

 

That's the one.

 

Davey

[jessy1692]

Funniest post this year

Second that! Ill happily take D200, just note sure if i park it on the drive and register it off road/rail itl wash with the council

[bike2steam]

Huh, just a pity the NRM hadn't got a 'Small Hopper' to offload as well !!

[Dava]

This matter has now been covered in Steam Railway with an inadequate response from the NRM as to why the disposal toolkit was not followed. The photo show the loco as delivered with rust tarnish already evident on former bright steelwork. The loco is to be stored outside until examined for possible restoration to working order - fantasy, I suspect.

 

The policy question of why steam loco exhibits ar being de-accessed from the NRM collection really needs to be raised as a Governance issue with the NRM Advisory Board, several of whom should be able to ask the right questions:

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/aboutus/advisory-board

 

Dava

[Dorsetmike]

Update in response to an email enquiry, I did enquire about the possibilty of restoration to running condition, the reply does not define the level or restoration, one can but hope!

 

 

It will be on display at Corfe Castle once the official handover has taken place later this month.

It will be restored, there is no timescale on this at present.

[bike2steam]

Update in response to an email enquiry, I did enquire about the possibilty of restoration to running condition, the reply does not define the level or restoration, one can but hope!

Thanks Mike, but I should think an independent engineering report on it's mechanical condition would take a while, but I wouldn't expect it to be much more than a cosmetic exercise when you take into account the cost, and the availability of man power.

[avonside1563]

This matter has now been covered in Steam Railway with an inadequate response from the NRM as to why the disposal toolkit was not followed. The photo show the loco as delivered with rust tarnish already evident on former bright steelwork. The loco is to be stored outside until examined for possible restoration to working order - fantasy, I suspect.

 

The policy question of why steam loco exhibits ar being de-accessed from the NRM collection really needs to be raised as a Governance issue with the NRM Advisory Board, several of whom should be able to ask the right questions:

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/aboutus/advisory-board

 

Dava

The NRM have already made the disposal procedure they have to follow known in a lengthy discourse in an earlier Steam Railway when NSR No2 was transferred to Foxfield last year. The NRM are part of the umbrella Science Museum Group and as such any disposals have to go through a lengthy and detailed process. I would respectfully suggest that anyone wishing to know more regarding the disposal of the T3 actually contacts the NRM directly, as has already been done by a member of the National Preservation forum in response to a similar debate on there. The NRM are quite happy to reply to sensible enquiries regarding their activities and plans.

[Robin Brasher]

 

T3 563 is now on display by the goods shed cattle dock at Corfe Castle station with a notice board showing its history.

 

I am sorry that I do not know if the Swanage Railway intends to restore it to running order and to store it in covered accommodation.

[bike2steam]

Given that it's on display outside at the moment, my concern would be for the non-ferrous parts with so many pikeys living in this part of Dorset.

[Nick Gough]

In another photo I have seen, in the last couple of days, the gauges have been removed from the cab.

[Killian keane]

At least now she has a chance of steaming again, which is a lot more than she had at the nrm! Theres really no need to be so pessimistic about this 'spelling the end' etc, engines have moved about all over before now, usually into museums, not out, I think it great that engines that have either not steamed in preservation or have not steamed in decades are being given a sporting chance, wouldn't it be great to see the midland compound or caledonian single no. 123 run again?

[Steamport Southport]

But why does it need the ownership transferred to return it to steam?

 

Plenty of NRM locomotives have steamed whilst in the care of societies. It should have gone on long term loan.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Dava]

At least now she has a chance of steaming again, which is a lot more than she had at the nrm! Theres really no need to be so pessimistic about this 'spelling the end' etc, engines have moved about all over before now, usually into museums, not out, I think it great that engines that have either not steamed in preservation or have not steamed in decades are being given a sporting chance, wouldn't it be great to see the midland compound or caledonian single no. 123 run again?

I just can't see any of these historic locos steaming again. Caley 123 and the other 3 historic Scottish locos had a golden retirement in the 1960's, operating under much more liberal boiler regulations than are in force now. Both Glen Douglas and Gordon Highlander had the chance of being restored in recent decades and it proved not feasible for financial and egineering reasons. I recall Midland 1000 and GNR No.1 running in the 1980's, again trading on the last of their boiler lifetimes from overhauls decades before that. I'd love to see them back but it won't happen. Maybe Butler-Henderson has a chance when it's back at the GCR in a few years time. But 563 is a very old and very tired loco, look at the tyre tread depth for example. It's restoration is just not technically or economically feasible for the Swanage Railway, in my view.

 

Dava

[Killian keane]

I just can't see any of these historic locos steaming again. Caley 123 and the other 3 historic Scottish locos had a golden retirement in the 1960's, operating under much more liberal boiler regulations than are in force now. Both Glen Douglas and Gordon Highlander had the chance of being restored in recent decades and it proved not feasible for financial and egineering reasons. I recall Midland 1000 and GNR No.1 running in the 1980's, again trading on the last of their boiler lifetimes from overhauls decades before that. I'd love to see them back but it won't happen. Maybe Butler-Henderson has a chance when it's back at the GCR in a few years time. But 563 is a very old and very tired loco, look at the tyre tread depth for example. It's restoration is just not technically or economically feasible for the Swanage Railway, in my view.

 

Dava

Again, I would not be so negative, welsh pony was also deemed to be "past it" or "knackered", but here she is with a significant amount of progress made to her inevitable return to steam, and shes older than any of those locos you mention