Peterborough North

[Fat Controller]

Gilbert , regarding the deterioration in cleanliness of Grantham engines at the start of '59 , I have'nt offered my thoughts so far,as I thought others would offer more feasable answers.However,as you jolted me into action with your PM,I will now tell you my own experience at that time which could well have influenced things.In late Dec.'58 ten of us Grantham passed cleaners were sent "on loan"to Top shed,along with 15 from New England.There was a shortage of passed cleaners at Top shed due to the diesel training program,as of course passed firemen took the place of drivers in training,and more passed cleaners were needed to replace the passed firemen.more on the suburban than main line workings initially,I remember,So it may well be that engine cleaning was rather neglected I feel.Although by the time I was sent back to Grantham exactly 2 years later,there were a fair number of new lads been "taken on",but when they all started I don't know.<br />As for national service,as suggested by someone,it had been gone 3 or 4 years before that.I was 16 in'57,and missed it by 3 years at least,I would suggest.So I'm sure no influence on labour.<br />Equally,the idea that passed cleaners were immune from cleaning is not true.Sorry "fat controller",I'm not picking on your theories deliberately;and as for 1 engine being allocated to 2 sets of men;This practice had been abandoned by '59 I'm sure,at least at top shed.I don't think it affected cleaning anyway.maybe in the cab,but not all over.Top shed engines were cleaned very well of course anyway,especially in P.N.Towneds's tenure,as we all know,even when all main line drivers would drive any of the engines,and others of course.there was no letting up on the pride of the A4s and A3s at top shed.<br />I once had to go for a rollicking off Mr.Townend,cap in hand,of course.I had called my driver back into the shed,and the point blades I had swiched were'nt right over due to a lump of coal I think;the tender therefore bumped along the sleepers before the driver quickly braked.(It was an A4 as well!!!)My fault of course.P.N.T.told me I'd soon be back at Grantham if there were any more incidents.(Just a snippet of useless information I thought might be interesting to some...at my expense).<br />Regards,Roy.<br />

Roy,

Glad to see you escaped National Service; apparently the last batch of people due for call-up were those who reached consciption age in 1957, with a possible deferment until 1960 for those who had to finish courses etc. So the reason for the lack of cleaning was that drivers were being put through conversion courses for diesels, so that Passed Firemen became Drivers, and Passed Cleaners became Firemen, leaving no-one to act as Cleaners?

I was very little in 1957; so I'm afraid all I know about these matters is what I gleaned from my elders.. One thing I do know is that the road to promotion was so lengthy in earlier times that my father decided a seven-year apprenticeship in a steel works was a better proposition.

Out of interest, you didn't know Peter Paine, did you? I know he was at Grantham, then Top Shed, but I'm not sure of the timescale. His family were 'Old Railway', I believe, as he'd been brought up in a house attached to a station. He's one of the few people I've met who was sent into the right sort of job during his National Service- he worked on the railway at Base Ordnace Depot, Kineton.

[great northern]

LNER 4492,

I don't want to criticise your photography and I don't want to dig up the pros and cons of lens, f. stops etc. but I noticed your first high level photograph of Peterborough North seems to have distorted Gilbert's quivering 'six pack'! Other than that small over sight the rest of the shots were first class.

 

Dave S.

Yes, of course Dave. I should have known that you would have the answer. Camera distortion again, that's what it was.

[great northern]

Gilbert , regarding the deterioration in cleanliness of Grantham engines at the start of '59 , I have'nt offered my thoughts so far,as I thought others would offer more feasable answers.However,as you jolted me into action with your PM,I will now tell you my own experience at that time which could well have influenced things.In late Dec.'58 ten of us Grantham passed cleaners were sent "on loan"to Top shed,along with 15 from New England.There was a shortage of passed cleaners at Top shed due to the diesel training program,as of course passed firemen took the place of drivers in training,and more passed cleaners were needed to replace the passed firemen.more on the suburban than main line workings initially,I remember,So it may well be that engine cleaning was rather neglected I feel.Although by the time I was sent back to Grantham exactly 2 years later,there were a fair number of new lads been "taken on",but when they all started I don't know.<br />As for national service,as suggested by someone,it had been gone 3 or 4 years before that.I was 16 in'57,and missed it by 3 years at least,I would suggest.So I'm sure no influence on labour.<br />Equally,the idea that passed cleaners were immune from cleaning is not true.Sorry "fat controller",I'm not picking on your theories deliberately;and as for 1 engine being allocated to 2 sets of men;This practice had been abandoned by '59 I'm sure,at least at top shed.I don't think it affected cleaning anyway.maybe in the cab,but not all over.Top shed engines were cleaned very well of course anyway,especially in P.N.Towneds's tenure,as we all know,even when all main line drivers would drive any of the engines,and others of course.there was no letting up on the pride of the A4s and A3s at top shed.<br />I once had to go for a rollicking off Mr.Townend,cap in hand,of course.I had called my driver back into the shed,and the point blades I had swiched were'nt right over due to a lump of coal I think;the tender therefore bumped along the sleepers before the driver quickly braked.(It was an A4 as well!!!)My fault of course.P.N.T.told me I'd soon be back at Grantham if there were any more incidents.(Just a snippet of useless information I thought might be interesting to some...at my expense).<br />Regards,Roy.<br />

Thanks Roy. That shows that we should always ask the people who were there. I do also recall that later on the standard of cleaning at Grantham improved again, which may have coincided with you and others returning from Top Shed. As to National Service, a friend of mine was in the last ever group that had to do it, and he was born in 1939. Please don't hesitate to tell us these stories Roy, they are absolutely fascinating, and the rest of us will keep learning from them.

[ROY@34F]

Many thanks for kind replies Gents.I can't recall Peter Paine I'm afraid.I rather think he must have been before my time,as I spent a few months as Time office runner after passing out for passed cleaner and before going to KX,and I thought I knew just about everyone in the loco.

Interesting re.nat.service,the group of'39 were the last.Sounds about right to me.As for cleanliness of engines improving again,well yes,most of the lads were homesick and allowed home.I think all the Grantham ones were back home in 6 months,EXCEPT me.I think they forgot about me,and I was quite happy firing at KX,instead of cleaning or shovelling ash out of ashpits and up into a wagon at Grantham,which is what happened if not firing of course.We did'nt have the luxury of wet pits like New England Gilbert!or a mechanical dredger thing like at Topshed.Indeed at Topshed we firemen rarely had to clean fires even.There was a gang of,how can I put in these "pc"days,coloured gentlemen to do such things.

Regards,Roy.

[Mallard60022]

I can vouch for the cleanliness of Grantham's A3s (probably some of Roy's work) in May 1962! Also I think I was thrown out of Top Shed by Mr Townend once but I can not be absolutely certain! Top shed, along with some other London sheds, had some of the first black shed staff in the country.

P

[ROY@34F]

I can vouch for the cleanliness of Grantham's A3s (probably some of Roy's work) in May 1962! Also I think I was thrown out of Top Shed by Mr Townend once but I can not be absolutely certain! Top shed, along with some other London sheds, had some of the first black shed staff in the country.

P

I was'nt doing any cleaning by then Duck bird ! thankfully

But to carry on ,if I may , with Fat Controllers post regarding slow promotion . Yes it was very slow at Grantham . When I started as a cleaner in'57 , a gang of 4 of us would clean a couple of engines a day , mostly our A3s , above the footplate or smetimes below footplate level , i.e. wheels and motion and tender frames/axleboxes . So we became well familiar with everything . The Inspector would come from New England on thursday afternoons in the classroom , a wooden building on the west side of the "new shed".Bill Buxton was almost always the one who came . Of course we went through the innards of the engines , signalling and the rule book . I used to really enjoy these sessions . We also spent a week with the firelighter on a shift , and I think a week with the boilersmiths . When passing out some 4 or 5 months later I went with Bill on a J6 from Grantham to Colwick , me firing of course , and the Colwick fireman going in the train "on the cushions" , where we returned on another train with another cleaner passing out , Peter (spike) Hughes firing . We had been cleaning together in our gang of 4 . I seem to think Colwick was as far as we could go , as that was the limit of the G.N.section , being midland territory from there to Nottingham Vic. and beyond . Spike had his trip on a J39 I remember . An unforgettable day on the road of course . We then had to see Cyril Richardson , the Shedmaster , individually . I well remember him saying to me that the inspector had given me top marks all round and all he asked me was to tell him rule 55 , which of course was the "fireman's rule" regarding protection of the train when stopped at signals .On passing out I was then "time office runner" on a shift , Fred Banchard was the shift foreman,in "the chair" and one time moyor of Grantham Bill Heath , the "outside" foreman , and my number of firing jobs I think only about got into double figures , until sent on loan to Top shed the following december , and a whole new world , slung straight onto L1s and N2s on the suburban an empty stock in an out of KX , and even "down the hole"to Moorgate . I well remember being on an early morning trip , probably my first , from Welwyn Garden City to KX , in dark midwinter remember . I'd not a lot of idea of the road of course , hit the firehole door a time or two , coal all over the place . you have to get a grip dam quick ! those l1s were terribly rough at speed , but of course you soon get used to things , no choice . Of course on returning to Grantham exactly 2 years later ,the same L1s were then shedded there , and I had a number of trips to Derby on them . I was firing all the time at KX , and very little cleaning on return home , but was not a regular fireman 'til 63 I think . Promotion at Grantham WAS slow . That's all for now folks , hope you find it interesting .

Regards , Roy

[Guest 2750]

That's all for now folks , hope you find it interesting .

Regards , Roy

 

Interesting? I think that is an understatement.

I love reading about what life was like working with ex LNER motive power, and have a number of those small books written by engine men (puplished in the 70s I think).

Keep them coming Roy. I was born far to late to know of working BR steam, but hearing these stories gives me that slight insight into what it might have been like.

 

Cheers

Edited August 18, 2013 by 2750

[great northern]

I can vouch for the cleanliness of Grantham's A3s (probably some of Roy's work) in May 1962! Also I think I was thrown out of Top Shed by Mr Townend once but I can not be absolutely certain! Top shed, along with some other London sheds, had some of the first black shed staff in the country.

P

Is that because you have been thrown out of so many places that they all merge into one Phil?

[great northern]

Another visit from Peter Leyland yesterday - we are trying to get as much as possible done while the evenings are still light, and before winter weather, as it is a 200 mile plus round trip for him every time.

 

This time we decided to concentrate on platform surfaces, so out came all the photographs. It is typical of this idiosyncratic station that nothing was simple, and no two bits are alike. It looks as though originally all surfaces were flagstones, but most of them have had a skim of tarmac put over them, so in some places the original surface was still there, in most it could not be seen at all, and occasionally it could still be faintly discerned.

 

Next train due was the 8.17am New England - Ferme Park Class F, which our dear departed friend Andy Rush recently told me would have been composed of coal and loco coal wagons. I've used the train to illustrate the progress made, and look! we even have some white lines now!

Very cleverly, I have got the train masking the bit I want you to see on this one, but it is a slightly different view to that which you are used to seeing, so I left it in. I also left in the shaft of sunlight creeping through a gap in the blinds, thinking it might add a bit of atmosphere, but it just looks rather strange, and of course the light is coming from entirely the wrong angle....

So here is a shot from the correct angle, showing the ramp and surface of the North end of the Up platform. This is where most of the original surface was still in situ. Both Peter and I had been looking at this, and thinking "Wish it all looked like this". It's much nicer visually, but it wasn't all like that, so that's that.

A helicopter view of the platform surface reveals more strange goings on. The fireman of the V2 pilot has had a premonition that the engine is about to be called on to take over from a failed loco, so he has already put up Class A lights. And who chucked those lamps in that brick wagon?

Progress down the South end too, though a lot less original paving to be seen. That horrible garish bit of green is only there to give me an indication of possibilities for a surface that can represent the hotel lawn. The texture is about right, but I shall be experimenting to tone the colour down.

This shows how abrupt the transition was between surfaces. It is the same on photo 3 - that really is how it looked, though the white line on that one, as on this, will eventually continue under the roof.

And a loco portrait to finish things off.

[Paul Cram]

Looking good as usual. What are you using to represent the tarmac?

[Mallard60022]

Lovely stuff G. thanks. Andy would approve.

P

Edited August 19, 2013 by Mallard60022

[hornbyandbf3fan]

I think you ought to replicate that first shot again, but with an express in the other platform to the WD. That'd be the perfect picture of your layout!

[great northern]

Looking good as usual. What are you using to represent the tarmac?

Just paint so far, Peter is the man to give you more detail if he happens to look in.

[great northern]

Can anyone please remind me of the name of the really good book about Pullman cars? Another senior moment I'm afraid. Still, I'm quite lucky to be here to have them. It goes like this, hmm, must hook this golf ball round that tree about five yards in front, hit tree, and get smacked in the face by the rebound, going rather fast, so no chance to react at all. Somehow, it just knocked my glasses off, not a  mark on my face at all, though it hit full on.  Anywhere else would have been much worse, and it could have finished me off. For some reason I didn't play very well after that either.

[Brass0four]

Can anyone please remind me of the name of the really good book about Pullman cars? Another senior moment I'm afraid. Still, I'm quite lucky to be here to have them. It goes like this, hmm, must hook this golf ball round that tree about five yards in front, hit tree, and get smacked in the face by the rebound, going rather fast, so no chance to react at all. Somehow, it just knocked my glasses off, not a  mark on my face at all, though it hit full on.  Anywhere else would have been much worse, and it could have finished me off. For some reason I didn't play very well after that either.

Hells Bells, Gilbert - that could have been bloody nasty! That velocity and the mass of a golf-ball! Sheesh...

 

(Best pack it in. Your public needs you. ;-) )

 

Tony.

[Clive Mortimore]

Can anyone please remind me of the name of the really good book about Pullman cars?

Hi Gilbert

 

Could it be, "Pullman, Travelling in Style" by Brian Haresnape, Malaga Books 1987.

[great northern]

Hi Gilbert

 

Could it be, "Pullman, Travelling in Style" by Brian Haresnape, Malaga Books 1987.

Thanks Clive, that's the one. I've been doubling up my Tees Tyne Pullman rake to masquerade as the Yorkshire Pullman, because of lack of space in the fiddle yard. Now of course there are cassettes, and vacant roads have miraculously appeared. What I was doing was all wrong, TTP had 8 cars, but YP had 11, and the formations were very different, so I've now convinced myself YP must be done. Why is it that when it comes to spending money on the railway, I don't take much convincing?

[Oldddudders]

Can anyone please remind me of the name of the really good book about Pullman cars? Another senior moment I'm afraid. Still, I'm quite lucky to be here to have them. It goes like this, hmm, must hook this golf ball round that tree about five yards in front, hit tree, and get smacked in the face by the rebound, going rather fast, so no chance to react at all. Somehow, it just knocked my glasses off, not a  mark on my face at all, though it hit full on.  Anywhere else would have been much worse, and it could have finished me off. For some reason I didn't play very well after that either.

At age 16 I was hit on the wrist by a golf-ball, even though I saw it coming - and was expecting the shot. I just couldn't react fast enough. Nothing broke but it was awfully painful for a while. This was a morning practice session, where I was engaged to pick up the balls, while the Member and the Club Pro went through the lesson. The Member was Cliff Michelmore.

[Clive Mortimore]

As a teenager my friend and I would caddie for some golfers, well hang around the golf course hopping they would ask us to caddie.

 

I soon learnt from my friend (he could play golf) to anticipate which club would be needed and have it ready. Many of the not so good players welcomed our "knowledge". We also would have our pockets full of different makes of ball. Ever worked out how the caddie always finds the ball.

 

Today I walk my dogs over the local course, they are far better at finding balls than us humans.

[davidw]

Gilbert on the issue of Pullmans, are the Goldenage models too heavy for RTR?

[jukebox]

Gilbert on the issue of Pullmans, are the Goldenage models too heavy for RTR?

 

*contemplates the price of admission to assemble a full T-TP and YP from Golden Age products*

 

*Thinks*

 

For sale:

Kidney, one owner...

1st born. No papers...

1 right arm...

1 right leg...

1 left testicle...

 

Nope, still came up short. 

[great northern]

At age 16 I was hit on the wrist by a golf-ball, even though I saw it coming - and was expecting the shot. I just couldn't react fast enough. Nothing broke but it was awfully painful for a while. This was a morning practice session, where I was engaged to pick up the balls, while the Member and the Club Pro went through the lesson. The Member was Cliff Michelmore.

Well, you don't want to be hit by just any old nobody, do you? Think of the damages you would be able to claim these days.

[great northern]

Gilbert on the issue of Pullmans, are the Goldenage models too heavy for RTR?

Not much I can add to the admirably succinct reply above David, except that it isn't the weight that is the problem. I do have one which runs in my Queen of Scots rake, and it is very free running, though irritatingly although it has knuckle couplings they are reluctant to stay coupled to kadees. I have though recently sold my DJH A3, and the gentleman who bought it tells me that it is one of the few locos he owns which can handle his rake of nine Golden Age cars, which suggests to me that they may indeed be too heavy for RTR locos, unless they have been carefully and properly weighted of course. My Bachmann A1's wouldn't begin to cope with my eight car Queen of Scots as delivered, but with weight added they can handle it even though the formation has been increased to nine. Those cars are Hornby donors with Comet sides and correct bogies by the way.

[davidw]

*contemplates the price of admission to assemble a full T-TP and YP from Golden Age products*

 

*Thinks*

 

For sale:

Kidney, one owner...

1st born. No papers...

1 right arm...

1 right leg...

1 left testicle...

 

Nope, still came up short. 

 

Not a full rake in my case -thank goodness - but topping and tailing Bachmann Mk1 Pullmans with GA brakes. Still a pricy proposition

[Alister_G]

*contemplates the price of admission to assemble a full T-TP and YP from Golden Age products*

 

*Thinks*

 

For sale:

Kidney, one owner...

1st born. No papers...

1 right arm...

1 right leg...

1 left testicle...

 

Nope, still came up short. 

 

With apologies to Gilbert, I'm intrigued, why right arm and leg but left testicle?

 

Is it just to balance you up?