Bachmann /LT Museum 66/7's

[159220]

Sentiment agreed. Shame we can't gift-aid such things too, to get them some more.

 

 

I am delighted at read you are proud to support a superb charity (and Locomotion). When they call to confirm my card details around late August/early September I shall ask them about gift aid and ask whether I can donate the additional £16.04 as otherwise they shall be losing that money. Which in the end might hinder further model rail projects from them to support the fundraising of the charity. I never thought to ask them about gift-aid, thanks for the suggestion

Edited July 13, 2016 by 159220

[jjb1970]

I’ve been as cynical as any over some of the price rises but in this case I think LTM (and to a degree Kader) are getting unfairly blamed. Not that long ago the pound was reasonably stable at around 1.65-ish, over the last year it went from nudging 1.6 down to just above 1.4 before recovering to 1.5 when it looked like we would stay in the EU. And it is not that long ago that it was over 2. Even if we take a step back from the last couple of weeks the pound had lost a lot of value over the last couple of years. The drop of the last couple of weeks is too early to be affecting prices of models on shelves or in transit to the UK but it’s be a hammer blow to the prices of models going forward.

Really it is not the fault of LTM or Kader if people would like to buy every release but can’t afford to. The alternative would be to slash the range of models they release which would penalise modellers looking forward to the particular releases cut. The commissioners may be a little different but my experience is that most Bachmann regular releases hang around long enough that you don’t need to rush out and buy them when released. For example models like the 350, 85, some of the 47’s lingered for what feels like forever. Even some commissioned models hang around long enough not to have to panic buy. So spread the purchases out or as others have said just buy less rather than trying to buy everything.

[ruggedpeak]

I wonder if the LTM will have to ask for the difference for those who have already paid the lower price?

No, nothing in their T&C's allows them to do that for those of us who have been charged already.

[Budgie]

Doubt away, but either LTM or Bachmann will be paying Kader in USD which has just got significantly more expensive. That is reality.

If that's the case why did they not buy a forward contract with their bankers as soon as they knew how much they would need to pay, which would fix the exchange rate for that batch of models.

[rob D2]

I completely agree with you both!

 

There is no way I can afford £340 for two Class 66s no matter how unique or special the liveries are.

 

If I'm honest I wasn't willing to pay £154 each because I just don't see that amount of money in them either. The only difference compared to any other Class 66 Bachmann have produced is the livery. I would pay £145 each for these two models at the most.

 

I was originally going to buy five or six of the Bachmann Freightliner Powerhaul 66416 models to renumber but they too increased in price by nearly £10 each per model. Again I can't afford to bulk buy Class 66s at £127 each now when they were originally £118 each. Bachmann are certainly losing a lot of custom and money from me at the moment.

 

I wish Dapol all of the best with their Class 68s because I feel that these are worth every penny of £123 each for the initial batch of six. Hard to think that Dapol can produce and tool a brand new model of the Class 68s and only be charging £123 each but yet Bachmann are churning the same bog standard Class 66 out but just with different liveries and are now charging £170 each!

 

Too true! At this rate 66779 will probably be £200+!

 

Do you ever actually buy anything ?. You don't need " 5 or 6 " really, and no one needs to " bulk buy " class 66s, after all they are not toilet roll from macro.

 

And if you were really going to spend £1000 or so on these I don't think £10 -20 price rise would bother you.

 

It all sounds very much like when I was ten years old and wrote out the entire Hornby catalogue in my letter to Santa.

[Revolution Mike]

If that's the case why did they not buy a forward contract with their bankers as soon as they knew how much they would need to pay, which would fix the exchange rate for that batch of models.

 

For the same reasons that many small businesses don't do that - it is too difficult/expensive/time-consuming etc or just ignorance that such a thing exists or that it would be necessary.

 

It sounds so simple but in reality it is often not the case. I looked at forward contracts for some of our projects - our bankers make it difficult to execute such transactions and to be honest even the banks didn't really believe that the UK would vote to leave the EU so question was the time/cost necessary.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

[WILLIAM]

Doubt away, but either LTM or Bachmann will be paying Kader in USD which has just got significantly more expensive. That is reality.

Something was clearly 'going on' well before the referendum when the LTM suspended pre-orders. Hence why I suspect a price rise was planned/needed before Brexit was even contemplated.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Do you ever actually buy anything ?. You don't need " 5 or 6 " really, and no one needs to " bulk buy " class 66s, after all they are not toilet roll from macro.

 

And if you were really going to spend £1000 or so on these I don't think £10 -20 price rise would bother you.

 

It all sounds very much like when I was ten years old and wrote out the entire Hornby catalogue in my letter to Santa.

 

Yes. I have 36 diesel locos at the moment. Well if your layout is based on Freightliner and DRS traction mainly then yes I might want to buy five or six of the new 416 model.

 

I have always respected the prices set by manufacturers although at some stage you have to think is £127 for a standard Class 66 or £170 for a Limited Edition Class 66 financially viable? I have no issue with manufacturers increasing their prices but when you consider that a few years ago you could buy a Class 66 for £80 brand new maybe less and now it's £127 for one standard model and that's the cheapest of the newer models. I just don't see how these new Class 66s are worth £127 or £170. The tooling hasn't changed, their have been no modifications or improvements/attention to detailing on the chassis of the Class 66s and they have had directional lighting and cab lighting for a number of years. Therefore all you are paying the extra money for is the livery.

 

As I have previously mentioned these are my personal opinions and whilst I know that some will agree I know that some will disagree. The way I see it Bachmann are increasing their prices not by a little with an explanation but by a good margin without an explanation. We just have to accept this and yet they are still wanting us to buy their products. They are restricting their target market because I know that a good margin of people won't be able to buy the Class 66s that they want. It appears as if they are trying to force people out of the hobby especially when I have been buying their locos for well over a decade and I have always paid the price for models because I knew that they would fair and you were getting high quality models for a good and affordable price. But with no change to the Class 66s except their liveries these years later it does make you think that Bachmann are just using their Class 66 tooling at every opportunity. To be producing nine Class 66s within a year or just over I think that quite clearly tells us that they are not bothered what people can afford and what they can't and that the Class 66 tooling is been used wherever possible without considering the affordability of the consumer.

Edited July 13, 2016 by DRS Crewe On A Mission

[Shoey]

I can't understand why these have been done in 2 batches? The first being a pre-order sell out then to re-open the pre-order at a higher price. They knew how many models were being produced so why advertise them in batches?? Has any other manufacturer/model/company done this to any other pre-orders? I could understand if it were a standard release model, had sold out then another production or re-run was released at a later date. For example the Colas Rail class 37 by Bachmann. These have already been released and are due another run later on - here you would expect an increase in price. (Whatever that increase may be) I can appreciate and understand that prices will increase and will continue to do so but its just frustrating when you see them for one price and miss them and can't pre-order one either via email, telephone or visiting the shop.

 

All of the above is just my opinion and how I feel. I have ordered 'Harry Beck' but just disappointed that I can't afford them both. That's my problem and NOT Bachmann or the LTM's.... Hopefully I will be able to source 'Sir Peter Hendy' at a later date.

[rob D2]

Yes. I have 36 diesel locos at the moment. Well if your layout is based on Freightliner and DRS traction mainly then yes I might want to buy five or six of the new 416 model.

 

I have always respected the prices set by manufacturers although at some stage you have to think is £127 for a standard Class 66 or £170 for a Limited Edition Class 66 financially viable? I have no issue with manufacturers increasing their prices but when you consider that a few years ago you could buy a Class 66 for £80 brand new maybe less and now it's £127 for one standard model and that's the cheapest of the newer models. I just don't see how these new Class 66s are worth £127 or £170. The tooling hasn't changed, their have been no modifications or improvements/attention to detailing on the chassis of the Class 66s and they have had directional lighting and cab lighting for a number of years. Therefore all you are paying the extra money for is the livery.

 

As I have previously mentioned these are my personal opinions and whilst I know that some will agree I know that some will disagree. The way I see it Bachmann are increasing their prices not by a little with an explanation but by a good margin without an explanation. We just have to accept this and yet they are still wanting us to buy their products. They are restricting their target market because I know that a good margin of people won't be able to buy the Class 66s that they want. It appears as if they are trying to force people out of the hobby especially when I have been buying their locos for well over a decade and I have always paid the price for models because I knew that they would fair and you were getting high quality models for a good and affordable price. But with no change to the Class 66s except their liveries these years later it does make you think that Bachmann are just using their Class 66 tooling at every opportunity. To be producing nine Class 66s within a year or just over I think that quite clearly tells us that they are not bothered what people can afford and what they can't and that the Class 66 tooling is been used wherever possible without considering the affordability of the consumer.

 

Well, that's a bit simplistic I think. The prices haven't gone up because of paint jobs.

 

To Bachmann, models are not a ' hobby' , it's a business.

 

If they decide they need to make 10 % return on each 66 that's what they will pitch it at, and hope it sells at that point.The purpose of their enterprise is profit - otherwise they become a charity.

They don't want to force people out - that would be strange , but then again they will cease to exist if they sell models for cost !

 

The simple answer is - don't buy 6 buy 2 !

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Well, that's a bit simplistic I think. The prices haven't gone up because of paint jobs.

 

To Bachmann, models are not a ' hobby' , it's a business.

 

If they decide they need to make 10 % return on each 66 that's what they will pitch it at, and hope it sells at that point.The purpose of their enterprise is profit - otherwise they become a charity.

They don't want to force people out - that would be strange , but then again they will cease to exist if they sell models for cost !

 

The simple answer is - don't buy 6 buy 2 !

 

Yes I can understand what your saying and yes Bachmann are a business and the price needs to allow them to make a profit according to what needs to be made per model but from my point of view as a consumer the increase in price is a bit too much.

 

Yes I am planning on buying two of the 416 models. At the end of the day I can only afford what I can afford and that applies to everyone. I suppose it's where different people draw the line as to how much money they spend and how many models they want to acquire. I am probably slightly more annoyed by the price increases because 66s feature a lot on my layout and I did want to acquire some of the latest models. Like you say I can still do that but just buy less than originally planned. The price increases have just narrowed the bar and margin of how many I can afford to buy. Credit to Bachmann though because from all of the pictures I have seen of 416 it looks like a fantastic model with a well applied livery.

[shunny]

Bachmann's standard class 66 costs £149.95 with no discount, nobody sells Ltd editions at a discount unless trying to clear old stock and usually there is a premium for the short run or unusual livery. There is a real possibility that the LTM were under charging from the first batch especially with the difficult liveries on these. Bachmann may have advised them as with Olivia's 37402 that the price will have to go up and they have had to adjust the price to make the expected profit to help the museum maintain its collection. LTM are not producing these to help us modellers out but as a product they see a demand for that can generate income.

 

This topic of pricing is a choice we can buy what we like/want or choose not to buy and miss out but whinging will not change the fact Bachmann have decided to choose making a profit over loosing money. Hornby are no better a class 56 or class 50 is £154.99 before discount and the retailers give much less discount on a Hornby model.

 

My way of looking at modelling now is do I want it, can I afford it and do I feel its worth the money to me. For the answer was yes I want them, can I afford both no, do I feel its worth getting 1 yes so I opted for 66721 am I happy? Ask me in September when my package arrives

[newbryford]

Yes. I have 36 diesel locos at the moment. Well if your layout is based on Freightliner and DRS traction mainly then yes I might want to buy five or six of the new 416 model.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I am planning on buying two of the 416 models.

 

Dan.

Have you actually bought any of your proposed five or six (or is it two) 66416s yet?

 

They've been on the shelves for at least a month or two - either that or the one I've got is a work of fiction.....

 

Either get on and buy one or two or five or six and give up banging on about price rises.

 

As an aside, my local model shop quickly sold it's allocation of 66416 - there may not be six or five or two or one left soon to buy and then you'll be at the mercy of eBay..........

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited July 13, 2016 by newbryford

[YesTor]

...all within a couple of months the following models are/due to be released: 66416, 66418, 66434, 66718, 66720 and 66721. For someone who would even like just one of each that is still a whopping £909 at least excluding DCC Decoders, so lets say including DCC Decoders just over £1000!

 

How on earth do Bachmann expect us to find this sort of money for six Class 66s!

 

You don't have to buy them all; and in fairness to Bachmann many of the 66s are commissioned by outside parties, and let's face it if a commissioner approaches Bachmann requesting an exclusive model whilst simultaneously waving their cheque book around, then what are Bachmann going to do?  The answer to that is simple, they are going to produce the models for them whilst the offer is on the table, as indeed any sensible business would. 

Edited July 14, 2016 by YesTor

[eric709]

Can we stop banging on about price rises, brexit, how many we all "need", it's getting tiresome to read the same posts again and again..... This thread is about the models themselves or has that been lost in the ether

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Don't get me wrong I know that when I do buy said Class 66s they will be well worth the money and the livery will be well applied.

 

Like I say their is personal opinion as to how much people are willing to pay for specific models. For example I don't begrudge paying money for models but at times like this when prices are increasing you have to draw the distinction between what a model is worth and if you are willing to pay that for the model in question. For me 416 and 434 are just within that category but their is no way that I can afford £340 for 718 and 721. It's nothing personal towards any specific manufacturer or retailer who commissions any models to be produced it's just what I see as been value for money.

[jjb1970]

On the model, based on pictures it looks like Bachmann will do an excellent job with the livery application. The basic 66 tooling is good but showing its age next to what would be expected if it was newly tooled today and it is a sweet runner. Not sure there is that much to say really, especially since we haven’t received the LTM models yet. I’m with those that think the Bachmann 66 could be improved upon, the problem is that there may be limited space to do this. As long as the Bachmann model still sells then why would Bachmann spend a lot to re-tool. For another player it’d be a huge risk to invest a lot in making a better 66 when despite looking a bit past its best the Bachmann model is still good and will be more than sufficient for many (I’d say most) modellers. And at the lower end the Hornby model is a low cost alternative for people wanting to practice their modelling skills or looking for something up to a bit of rough handling for the trainset market.

[159220]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not see any of these posts being relevant to the LTM 66/7s specifically. There is actually nothing factual since I reported the facts from my direct telephone conversation with them: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105510-Bachmann-lt-museum-667s/?p=2368298

 

We were asked yesterday to follow the following:

 

This topic is not for grumbling about price rises of any other products and certainly isn't fair on the museum who have to make commercial decisions in a changing environment.

 

Please can we all remember the LTM is a charity, support it or don't. Either way, please do not ruin another thread by the circular discussion about price.

 

 

No, nothing in their T&C's allows them to do that for those of us who have been charged already.

 

No, that is correct, but is it morally acceptable to allow a charity to cover the price rise for you? Consider donating the additional £16 to the LTM with gift aid.

 

The LTM is a charity (number 1123122), donations can be made here: http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/support-us/make-a-donation

 

 

The Museum's charitable objectives are to:

• Preserve our transport heritage and interpret the vital role transport has played in the life of our city
• Deliver education programmes for schools, working with over 100,000 young people every year
• Work with communities throughout London on creative and educational projects both within and outside the Museum
• Raise awareness of future transport issues and opportunities to promote a sustainable London

http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/about-us/charitable-status

Edited July 14, 2016 by 159220

[knitpick]

Having seen samples at Covent Garden some while back, these models do look good.  However there do seem to be two issues here.  Firstly an initial batch would seem to have arrived and been sent out; a second batch seems to be scheduled for September.  This begs the question as to why two batches. 

 

Did LT Museum underestimate demand?  If so then a price differential between first and second batches is to be expected - even if it is unpopular.  However, Bachmann should be applauded for producing the second batch so quickly.  Albeit this does bring into question the concept of a Limited Edition,

 

On the other hand, if Bachmann only partially delivered on the LT Museum order then the price for both batches should be the same.  And Bachmann should have used currency hedging to guard against significant exchange rate movements.

 

Oops  did I mention price changes?   Mea Culpa.

[Ryde-on-time]

I believe there is only one batch and none have been despatched yet, the web site says they expect to send them out September

 

They did allow some people to preorder on the website a few months ago,  but that was for models from the same batch which is expected soon

Edited July 14, 2016 by Ryde-on-time

[SilvermanD]

hopefully when the locos are delivered people will focus more on the locos rather than grumbling about the prices and the museum.

[159220]

However there do seem to be two issues here.  Firstly an initial batch would seem to have arrived and been sent out; a second batch seems to be scheduled for September.  This begs the question as to why two batches.

 

I shall copy over 100% fact and not speculation as reported yesterday directly from a telephone conversation with the Exclusives team at the LTM:

 

They are not in stock, nor are they being dispatched. 

 

Latest indications of delivery is late August for early dispatch in September. All pre-orders online shall be after Warley customers.

 

These are only indication dates and we are encouraged to review the website for confirmed delivery times later in to August.

[YesTor]

You don't have to buy them all; and in fairness to Bachmann many of the 66s are commissioned by outside parties, and let's face it if a commissioner approaches Bachmann requesting an exclusive model whilst simultaneously waving their cheque book around, then what are Bachmann going to do?  The answer to that is simple, they are going to produce the models for them whilst the offer is on the table, as indeed any sensible business would. 

 

 

I would also add - and this is merely an educated guess - but generally speaking most of Kernow's exclusive models are around for quite some time (in fact quite a loooonnnng time in some instances), so I wouldn't mind betting a fiver that their 66418 will more than likely still be available 12 months from now, especially priced just shy of £175.  So there's plenty of time to pace those expensive purchases if you feel that you really need them all...

Edited July 14, 2016 by YesTor

[Purley Oaks]

I believe that they only allowed pre-orders online for a shortish time in order to keep stock for the shop

Mal

[trent]

Back to the models, here's my iPhone pic of a 66718 sample at DEMU. LTM (and Bachmann) really do have to be commended on attempting these as it certainly is an intricate livery expertly applied.

 

Martin