Hornby Announce SR 4-6-0 Lord Nelson

[Ian Hargrave]

Perhaps this explains the lackadaisical approach to the H2. Four or five years after it was announced, the 2018 arrival date is still jumping about like a frog on a hotplate.

 

No.This is normal for Bachmann.

[dibber25]

Having worked on Model Railway Constructor in the early 1960s, with an Editor who was an avid Southern modeller and who handed over to a successor who also had strong Southern sympathies I can tell you it took a very long time to break the Hornby-Dublo 'Liverpool' influence that success lay in A4s and Duchesses. It was the profusion of Wills kits and 'toe-in-the-water' exercises such as the Tri-ang Winston Churchill that finally began to convince the trade that there were saleable prototypes south of the SNOW* line. (*I heard that a lot, too - Somewhere North Of Watford). To be fair, I think you have to look across all the ranges, now that couplings and electrical systems are largely standardised. Back then you couldn't mix the three main manufacturers because couplings and power supply were different, so choices were very limited to within your chosen range. Now, most regions are pretty well covered and manufacturers are having to look far and wide for potential new subjects, but what choice we do have! Personally, I'd like to see an SR EMU or two - bearing in mind it was the only one of the big four to run an extensive electrified main line system. We have BILs and BELs but whatever we have, it's never quite enough, is it? (CJL)

[Legend]

It wasn't all A4s and Duchesses . If we talk Triang you had the L1,West Country BoB, M7 and in 1976 a King Arthur . People moan about lack of Southern coverage in these days but forget that other regions were equally starved . You could argue that actually the Southern was the better off of the companies having tank engines through to Express Passenger locos. Remember the Triang Hornby catalogues where the GWR range was Lord of the Isles and a Hall? LNER was Flying Scotsman and a B12

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

.I heard that a lot, too - Somewhere North Of Watford ...Now, most regions are pretty well covered and manufacturers are having to look far and wide for potential new subjects, but what choice we do have! ...

 But then 'SNOW' slowly transitioned until quite recently into something more like 'Anywhere South of Watford Gap' ...

 

Now that we have improved coverage in RTR it must be more testing to spot the opportunities for new model subjects. The probe North - even unto Scotland - will hopefully open some new fields to exploit.

 

...."very useful engines" ...tank engines ...EMU's,...

 

...Much still to be done.

 Focus required though. The LN completes the heavy express steam traction for SR and BR(SR) and given the historic popularity of express namers it is rather surprising it has taken this long to get a current standard model.

 

ISTM the very obvious gaps in SR RTR steam provision in 'very useful engines' are a pregroup design Eastern division 4-4-0 and something mixed traffic with a tender for the Central division. There isn't a large indigenous SR tank engine, or a heavy 0-6-0T of pregroup or nearly so design, currently available: all the recent attention in SR group tank engines seems to have gone toward small numbers in class, restricted operating area, and ye anciente 'tiddlers', which is odd, or 'interesting'.

 

Goodness knows where to start on EMU's.

[Wickham Green]

 

 

ISTM the very obvious gaps in SR RTR steam provision in 'very useful engines' are a pregroup design Eastern division 4-4-0 and something mixed traffic with a tender for the Central division. There isn't a large indigenous SR tank engine, or a heavy 0-6-0T of pregroup or nearly so design, currently available: all the recent attention in SR group tank engines seems to have gone toward small numbers in class, restricted operating area, and ye anciente 'tiddlers', which is odd, or 'interesting'.

 

Goodness knows where to start on EMU's.

In Southern terms, I wouldn't describe the 'E4' or 'H' as 'small numbers' classes - nor the not-so-recent 'M7' ......... probably the most conspicuous tank engine omission - though it rarely seems to get a mention - is the Brighton 'E1'. The 'E2' and Wainwright 'R1' have been produced - after a fashion - and are probably better known among the toy train community .... but their numbers were somewhat lower.

Something with a tender for the Central Div. would have to be a 'K' or 'C2X' but there were barely two of the latter alike so that might be problematic ......... There's long been speculation about an NRM collaboration with somebody over a 'D' and I'll happily add my "YES PLEASE" to that - but numerically the other 4-4-0s were not very numerous - how about an 'L' ? ( and 'L1' on virtually the same chassis )

Electric unit ? - the 4COR has been mentioned but the other necessity would be a Bulleid 4SUB .......... mind you 4-car units are said to be poor sellers - so we'll not see either of them, will we !!?!

 

I could expand my wish list if anyone one wants .............. maybe we should return to topic for the next post, though .............

[Dunsignalling]

It wasn't all A4s and Duchesses . If we talk Triang you had the L1,West Country BoB, M7 and in 1976 a King Arthur . People moan about lack of Southern coverage in these days but forget that other regions were equally starved . You could argue that actually the Southern was the better off of the companies having tank engines through to Express Passenger locos. Remember the Triang Hornby catalogues where the GWR range was Lord of the Isles and a Hall? LNER was Flying Scotsman and a B12

I'd be the first to give thanks for the increased Southern coverage we've been offered in the last couple of decades. We've come a very long way in that time. When I bought my first pair of Bachmann Ns, I expected more great things from them; things that would, in the main, eventually come from Hornby instead.

 

If anyone had told me in my youth that one day I'd own authentic looking T9s, S15s and Black Motors, plus a complete set of properly different Adams Radials (and much more) without having to make it all myself, I'd have predicted the imminent arrival of men in white coats, never mind Malachite!  Any suggestion of r-t-r Beattie Well tanks and Bulleid diesels would have initiated uncontrolled giggling.

 

One had to apply a copious amount of imagination to see 'Sir Dinadan' as anything more than a very rough approximation of an Arthur. With smaller wheels and a set of (IIRC) HD Duchess cylinders and valve gear, it did make a passable S15, though.

 

Back then the LMS was far-and-away the best served of all the big four in r-t-r.

 

John

Edited April 10, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[RFS]

We seem to have drifted way off topic again on this thread, which is specifically about the forthcoming Hornby Lord Nelson, and drifted into a Southern modellers wish-list ….

[phil-b259]

 There isn't a large indigenous SR tank engine, or a heavy 0-6-0T of pregroup or nearly so design, currently available

 

That might be because the Southern didn't have any!

 

The quick pace of suburban electrification, followed by its extension to the south coast meant that there simply wasn't the need for any such 'large indigenous SR tank' engines - while other railways may have been building such things the Southern equivalent were EMUs formed largely from rebuilt ex steam hauled suburban compartment stock.

 

What 'large' tank engines that did exist on the SR were either (i) immediately rebuilt as tender engines following the 1227 Sevenoaks derailment, (ii) Spent their lives trundling round London with transfer freights to / from Feltham yard or (ii) mostly got rebuilt as tender engines following the electrification of the Brighton mainline in 1933.

 

In rural areas the medium sized tank engines displaced by electrification and used in large numbers include the ex LSWR M7 (Hornby), the ex SECR H (Hornby) and the ex LBSCR E4 (Bachmann). While other classes were of course used, the fact is the main three ones have already been covered and models of other classes will thus be less profitable as potential products.

[adb968008]

I think much of the future lies in Wagons and Coaches.

 

The popular prototypes for Steam and Diesel are nearly done. Some scope for “new build”projects.. Saint, County etc.much as i’d love an 84xxx and 78xxx with so few liveries to do there’s not much chance.

 

But we’ve still scope for LMS/ LNER push pull stock.

Similarly if someone made a working Slip Coach.

We don’t have any pre-BR mail coaches, and only 1 sleeper (Gresley), pigeon van ?

There isn’t even an accurate Milk tank out there.

 

If it has to be a loco, there is still a gap for an industrial 0-6-0T.

[bigherb]

That might be because the Southern didn't have any!

 

T

Apart from the E2, G6, R/R1 or the sole S.

[phil-b259]

Apart from the E2, G6, R/R1 or the sole S.

 

Those are NOT 'Large indigenous SR tank engines' nor what I would call 'heavy 0-6-0T' locos

 

The G6 is, as I understand it is not significantly larger than its passenger counterpart, the O2 tank produced by Kernow.

The E2 is not particularly large either.

The R/R1 class are the same size and carried out much the same work as the H class produced by Hornby

The sole S class is a converted C class - itself not a particularly large loco as things go.

 

Large SR tank engines are things like the class L or class J Baltic / Pacific tank engines built by the LBSCR, the G16 / H16 tanks built for the LSWR, or the K (River) and W classes built by the SR - not the little things you have listed.

[Chuffed 1]

We seem to have drifted way off topic again on this thread, which is specifically about the forthcoming Hornby Lord Nelson, and drifted into a Southern modellers wish-list ….

It would appear that Lord Nelsons aren't that popular after all!  If this thread is anything to go by, people will be waiting for ever-more esoteric Southern types and Hornby will wind up dumping unsold LNs on the market at rock bottom prices.

 

 

 

Hopefully!

[GreenGiraffe22]

It would appear that Lord Nelsons aren't that popular after all! If this thread is anything to go by, people will be waiting for ever-more esoteric Southern types and Hornby will wind up dumping unsold LNs on the market at rock bottom prices.

 

 

 

Hopefully!

I must say I haven't been remotely excited by the Lord Nelson, it's just another samey looking 4-6-0, and I don't have much use for big express locos, more smaller SECR & LBSC prototypes would be welcome =)

[phil gollin]

"It would appear that Lord Nelsons aren't that popular after all!  If this thread is anything to go by, people will be waiting for ever-more esoteric Southern types and Hornby will wind up dumping unsold LNs on the market at rock bottom prices.

 

Hopefully!"

 

 

 

.

 

No, it was the interruption of the thread by somewhat biased "Northerners" trying to claim that the Southern (as has been shown many times NOT to be the case) are over catered for.

 

.

Edited April 10, 2018 by phil gollin

[Black 5 Bear]

It would appear that Lord Nelsons aren't that popular after all! If this thread is anything to go by, people will be waiting for ever-more esoteric Southern types and Hornby will wind up dumping unsold LNs on the market at rock bottom prices.

 

 

 

Hopefully!

Wishful thinking I think. Hornby now produce limited runs of each loco release, these readily sell out very quickly.

The days of plentiful stocks, such as we had with the King's, S15's and B17's are over.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Black 5 Bear

[JSpencer]

Those are NOT 'Large indigenous SR tank engines' nor what I would call 'heavy 0-6-0T' locos

 

The G6 is, as I understand it is not significantly larger than its passenger counterpart, the O2 tank produced by Kernow.

The E2 is not particularly large either.

The R/R1 class are the same size and carried out much the same work as the H class produced by Hornby

The sole S class is a converted C class - itself not a particularly large loco as things go.

 

Large SR tank engines are things like the class L or class J Baltic / Pacific tank engines built by the LBSCR, the G16 / H16 tanks built for the LSWR, or the K (River) and W classes built by the SR - not the little things you have listed.

 

Z class?

[JSpencer]

I must say I haven't been remotely excited by the Lord Nelson, it's just another samey looking 4-6-0, and I don't have much use for big express locos, more smaller SECR & LBSC prototypes would be welcome =)

 

It was not really high on my list especially as my Bachmann pair have given excellent service over the past 2 decades. So - unlike the Original Merchant Navies, i did not order 3 of them but only one and that is because it carries a lot of Maunsell elements into BR days that the Bachmann model never did.

Some people though find the Bachmann offering now outdated and indeed it does look that way compared to pics of the new Hornby one but probably not enough at normal layout viewing distances.

 

 

It would appear that Lord Nelsons aren't that popular after all!  If this thread is anything to go by, people will be waiting for ever-more esoteric Southern types and Hornby will wind up dumping unsold LNs on the market at rock bottom prices.

 

 

 

Hopefully!

 

This loco is bigger than Bachmann's H1 and H2 and about £40 cheaper. Hornby are cautious about over producing and even more cautious about deep discounting now. 

[robmcg]

It was not really high on my list especially as my Bachmann pair have given excellent service over the past 2 decades. So - unlike the Original Merchant Navies, i did not order 3 of them but only one and that is because it carries a lot of Maunsell elements into BR days that the Bachmann model never did.

Some people though find the Bachmann offering now outdated and indeed it does look that way compared to pics of the new Hornby one but probably not enough at normal layout viewing distances.

 

 

 

This loco is bigger than Bachmann's H1 and H2 and about £40 cheaper. Hornby are cautious about over producing and even more cautious about deep discounting now. 

 

Regardless of the size and value comparison, I too have been less than enthused about the Hornby LN  also the original Duchesses, given their similarity to earlier models, Bachmann or Hornby, but I usually weaken when I see the real models.

 

I find the Engineshed pics of the EP Duchess quite odd, off-putting even, with the small front wheels, and while the new chassis is great and the new body will undoubtedly have more detail (rather like the new non-streamlined Duchesses compared the 'old'), it is still going to be hard to shell out money when there are other delectable models in the pipeline, like the Bachmann Atlantics. But then I have an NRM Ivatt Atlantic and beautiful though the new models are, they are so far as I can see no better, just different, and NRM versions are still available new at Locomotion for comparable prices, it's not as if they are flying out the door.

 

To be honest I think Hornby's N15 is be very hard to beat, in simple modelling quality and value for money.  I wonder quite honestly i the market for new models is now a lot smaller than say ten years ago when new models were distinctly better than old versions. 

[phil-b259]

Z class?

 

While large, these were basically shunting engines that were unsuited to much else other than shunting (or banking trains up the steep incline between  Exeter stations IIRC). Not quite the same thing as machines built for longer trips.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...it is still going to be hard to shell out money when there are other delectable models in the pipeline... I wonder quite honestly if the market for new models is now a lot smaller than say ten years ago when new models were distinctly better than old versions. 

 Much greater choice in decent models now all competing for the same money, in short. Had Hornby gone with the LN instead of the N15 in circa 2006(?) then it would probably have generated much more excitement?  

 

I suspect it will sell well enough though, as an example of pushing the 4-6-0 format as far as possible within the UK loading gauge and track restrictions, simply by looking imposing in the display case or on the retailer's site. Good names too...

[Godfrey Glyn]

My copy of the first edition of the new Hornby Collector Club magazine has just dropped through my letterbox and it contains a four page article by Paul Isles looking at the decisions and processes behind the choice of a new model. Well worth a read, as is the new magazine which, IMHO takes the magazine to a completely new, and very much better level. Looking forward to finding time tonight to reading it from cover to cover.

 

all the best

Godfrey

[Wickham Green]

Those are NOT 'Large indigenous SR tank engines' nor what I would call 'heavy 0-6-0T' locos

 

...........................

The R/R1 class are the same size and carried out much the same work as the H class produced by Hornby

 

H and R/R1 were used for VERY different purposes - the former assorted local passenger workings and the latter various shunting tasks, Folkestone banking and, of course Canterbury & Whitstable ............. little, if any overlap.

 

Not sure what you would class as a 'heavy 0-6-0T' loco if the 'S' doesn't count ??!?

[Chuffed 1]

 

"It would appear that Lord Nelsons aren't that popular after all!  If this thread is anything to go by, people will be waiting for ever-more esoteric Southern types and Hornby will wind up dumping unsold LNs on the market at rock bottom prices.

 

Hopefully!"

 

 

 

.

 

No, it was the interruption of the thread by somewhat biased "Northerners" trying to claim that the Southern (as has been shown many times NOT to be the case) are over catered for.

 

.

 

   How could anyone claim the Southern is 'over-catered for' when there is no RTR S class or LCDR R1 on the horizon?!  And don't get me started on a Billington mogul!!

[Steamport Southport]

 

"It would appear that Lord Nelsons aren't that popular after all!  If this thread is anything to go by, people will be waiting for ever-more esoteric Southern types and Hornby will wind up dumping unsold LNs on the market at rock bottom prices.

 

Hopefully!"

 

 

 

.

 

No, it was the interruption of the thread by somewhat biased "Northerners" trying to claim that the Southern (as has been shown many times NOT to be the case) are over catered for.

 

.

 

 

Not all "Northerners", just those the wrong side of the Pennines.....

 

 

As for the idea that the SR had no large 0-6-0Ts. The E2 was bigger than both a Jinty and a GWR 57XX!

 

 

Lack of numbers maybe. But it did have a famous "brother".

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

Not all "Northerners", just those the wrong side of the Pennines.....

 

 

As for the idea that the SR had no large 0-6-0Ts. The E2 was bigger than both a Jinty and a GWR 57XX!

 

 

Lack of numbers maybe. But it did have a famous "brother".

 

 

 

Jason

Looks like the Great Northerners win on the big ( i.e. heavy ) 0-6-0T stakes with the J50 ( LNER designation ) closely followed by the small-in-number& late-period 15XX ........ I've not checked every other pre-grouping loco but of the engines most people would be familiar with only the 94xx seems to top the 'S' and 'E2'. ........... yes the J50 is the definite out and out winner but none of the other railways had "'heavy 0-6-0T' locos" in significant numbers !