Great Model Railway Challenge - Channel 5

[Marcus-Jay]

One of the things you will all need to bear in mind is that last nights show wasn't the first to be filmed. It was, in fact, the last heat filmed. They are being aired in the heat order: 5, 2, 3, 1, 4. So last nights show is the most polished in terms of production and judging. Decisions made in what you saw on Friday night were based on the experience of 12 or so days of doing other heats and the production company learning what needs to be done, what to shoot, what to ask, how things work. So much stuff that was actually filmed has been left out and they were really cramming in the bits of the programme to make it all fit.  But as with all things commercial television based, you have 48ish minutes 

Most of the questions asked have had an answer. But a few notes I'll add as a competitor; The layouts were taken away after filming.

I would imagine that the winning layout will be exhibited at Warley as it is two weeks after the final airs, but that is an assumption. Mattford (our layout from the heats) will be appearing at the CMRA show in Stevenage January next year, along with Ealing from Missenden (as seen last night).

If you think Missenden interpreted the rules well you wait until you see some of the other scratch build offerings! It's not cheating as I can state the rules did not specify the size of the scratch build items.

 

I went on the show to try and portray modelling in a favourable light. It's all very well saying they will make a mockery of us and it will ruin the hobby. But unless you do something to try and change that view.... The layout we completed looks very much like a layout 5 people took 3 x 8 hour days building with a very small amount of prep work before hand and I am quite proud of what we achieved. I will properly stand by that in January,

 

Well done to all three teams on Ep 1, good luck to the rest of us.

[reevesthecat]

Just watched it, definitely thought Barry was edited to be the pantomime villain- how often were the other teams being shown asking if they were going to win- not as many as Barry I reckon however the judge was right when she said just how much modelling was done here rather than pre build?

Liked the show did feel very great British bake off but if that's the winning formula why not give it a copy.

Do like the fact it is prime time on a British tv channel (I know it is 5 but even so) look forward to next week.

Mark

[enginelane]

One of the things you will all need to bear in mind is that last nights show wasn't the first to be filmed. It was, in fact, the last heat filmed. They are being aired in the heat order: 5, 2, 3, 1, 4. So last nights show is the most polished in terms of production and judging. Decisions made in what you saw on Friday night were based on the experience of 12 or so days of doing other heats and the production company learning what needs to be done, what to shoot, what to ask, how things work. So much stuff that was actually filmed has been left out and they were really cramming in the bits of the programme to make it all fit.  But as with all things commercial television based, you have 48ish minutes 

Most of the questions asked have had an answer. But a few notes I'll add as a competitor; The layouts were taken away after filming.

I would imagine that the winning layout will be exhibited at Warley as it is two weeks after the final airs, but that is an assumption. Mattford (our layout from the heats) will be appearing at the CMRA show in Stevenage January next year, along with Ealing from Missenden (as seen last night).

If you think Missenden interpreted the rules well you wait until you see some of the other scratch build offerings! It's not cheating as I can state the rules did not specify the size of the scratch build items.

 

I went on the show to try and portray modelling in a favourable light. It's all very well saying they will make a mockery of us and it will ruin the hobby. But unless you do something to try and change that view.... The layout we completed looks very much like a layout 5 people took 3 x 8 hour days building with a very small amount of prep work before hand and I am quite proud of what we achieved. I will properly stand by that in January,

 

Well done to all three teams on Ep 1, good luck to the rest of us.

 

The shows are indeed out of sequence but as such does not really matter. Likewise Team Wakefield’s Layout will live on and was an experience I certainly would not missed. A production company, TV channel, railway modelling manufacturers, retailers put money and time into this our hobby. It is they who have the most to lose. I applaud their vision in giving the hobby air time and if others think it does not represent the hobby get round the production companies, get a budget and I look forward to seeing the shows.

[bodmin16]

One point that occurred to me was that model railway terms and techniques were mentioned without any attempt being made to explain them. In 'Bake Off' type programmes, they often go to great lengths to explain a Bain Marie or a Roux sauce, but Malcolm says about adding static grass to a grass mat, and we see an airbrush being used in a spray booth without any further explaination.

Sounds like there is a position on the production team for you on series 2!

[Ian Morgan]

I am sure they filmed enough footage for a Jack Bower '24' type series.

 

Episode 6, day one of the build between 2pm and 3pm. Pete is outside in the sun spray painting something and starting to shout and swear at himself as he keeps dropping it and getting finger prints on it. In the modelling room Rob has superglued his fingers together again and John C is administering the freeing solution again. In the main hall, Robin wants to cut a hole in the baseboard with his jigsaw and keeps being shushed by the runner girls because they are trying to interview someone on the next layout. It is the sixth take as the peacocks keep shrieking, jumbo jets are taking off from nearby Heathrow and Tim keeps fluffing his lines. Meanwhile John S is being mic'ed up ready to give a 'hurry up' talk to the team. Ian is at the tea urn again, snaffling some Bourbons ...

[clecklewyke]

<curmudgeon mode on>

It might have been “good family entertainment” but it did nought for me. I think a smaller proper diorama format would have reflected railway modelling as a really adult hobby. Hepton Wharf it wasn’t. This was a layout built by Iain Rice, Don Leeper et al during a Scaleforum weekend. It has subsequently been developed further, see https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibheptonwharf.html

 

I was surprised at the lack of focus on railways proper, even on the Missenden group’s depiction of The Ladykillers. A circulating tank engine with two corridor coaches was an unlikely train on the approaches to Kings Cross and where were any signals?

 

But I did like their “illegal” buildings with forced perspective. How did they make them?

 

<curmudgeon mode off>

 

Having said all that I recognise that I am hardly an average viewer. I come with a strong view of the type of model railway that I like. I know that others have different likes, at which point I duck for cover...

 

Ian

Edited October 7, 2018 by clecklewyke

[Golden Fleece 30]

<curmudgeon mode on>

It might have been “good family entertainment” but it did nought for me. I think a smaller proper diorama format would have reflected railway modelling as a really adult hobby. Hepton Wharf it wasn’t. This was a layout built by Iain Rice, Don Leeper et al during a Scaleforum weekend. It has subsequently been developed further, see https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/hepton/

 

I was surprised at the lack of focus on railways proper, even on the Missenden group’s depiction of The Ladykillers. A circulating tank engine with two corridor coaches was an unlikely train on the approaches to Kings Cross and where were any signals?

 

But I did like their “illegal” buildings with forced perspective. How did they make them?

 

<curmudgeon mode off>

 

Having said all that I recognise that I am hardly an average viewer. I come with a strong view of the type of model railway that I like. I know that others have different likes, at which point I duck for cover...

 

Ian

As has been mentioned many times this is not for just scale railway modellers but the general public.

 

Ask everyone in the country what they know about the WR Ashburton branch, JurrasicPark or James Bond and I know which will be the least known, even a lot of modellers wont know much about the Ashburton branch (I am not a WR fan). It was aimed at the people who could relate things too. Some talk regarding Ian Rice etc speaks of Eliteness to me which is was certainly not to be and I for one would not want to see. Everyone is different and do things differently. Ian Rice, David Jenkinson etc are not the b all and end all of model railways.

 

Garry

Edited October 7, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30

[Richard Jones]

Apologies if this has been said already, but having just found this thread I am not going to wade through 10 pages of contributions.

 

For what it's worth, the contrived nature of the whole thing put me off.

Railway modelling can hardly be considered a competitive sport and trying to turn it into one for entertainment purposes made me wonder - 'just what's going on here?'

I don't think the programme does anything positive for the hobby, but then sadly I don't think that was the intention.

 

A far more positive spin was the appearance of Bruce Hunt's Bere Alston on "walking Britain's Lost Railways" (also on channel 5)

 

I would suggest that an interesting TV programme could be made with a "then and now" approach, visiting real, possibly no longer, railway locations and comparing them with the model representation - Rolvenden (Robin Gay), Weston Clevedon and Portishead (Andrew Ullyot) Retford (Roy Jackson) Leamington Spa (Pete Waterman) are a few that spring to mind.

 

You could mix in railway/social history with model research and construction techniques

 

Any TV channels want to buy my idea/format?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[ruggedpeak]

I am sure they filmed enough footage for a Jack Bower '24' type series.

 

Episode 6, day one of the build between 2pm and 3pm. Pete is outside in the sun spray painting something and starting to shout and swear at himself as he keeps dropping it and getting finger prints on it. In the modelling room Rob has superglued his fingers together again and John C is administering the freeing solution again. In the main hall, Robin wants to cut a hole in the baseboard with his jigsaw and keeps being shushed by the runner girls because they are trying to interview someone on the next layout. It is the sixth take as the peacocks keep shrieking, jumbo jets are taking off from nearby Heathrow and Tim keeps fluffing his lines. Meanwhile John S is being mic'ed up ready to give a 'hurry up' talk to the team. Ian is at the tea urn again, snaffling some Bourbons ...

Sounds more like 'Model Railway Big Brother' - MRBB

[James Harrison]

I was pleasantly surprised; I was expecting something cringeworthy and it wasn't.  Could have been better- I would have liked something along the lines of Scrapheap Challenge, where you have somebody explaining what needs to be done and why and how.  But, oh well.  It didn't leave me thinking I'd wasted an hour, nor am I on the edge of my seat for the next episode- which is more can be said for the 'walking lost railways' show which follows it, of which I watched two episodes and decided it wasn't worth it. 

 

I'd like to see more of Fawley Hill, which looks a really interesting sort of a place and 1:1 layout. 

[NIK]

Hi,

 

In the first espisode it says the winner will appear at a major model railway show and then they showed a layout at what looked like Warley.

I only spotted this on my second viewing as the editing is so fast.

 

So if the aim is Warley then the final has to be aired before it (ie not too many postponements of episodes - unlike the Ryder cup clash which saw the series delayed a week - the second Radio Times edition to mention the series mentions the wrong episode).

 

I don't know how the scaling of the forced perspective terraces was done on the Missenden team's layout but they may have used downloadable kit artwork such as Scalescenes and scaled accordingly. Or they could have scanned Metcalfe (one of the sponsors) kits when they arrive flat and done the same.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[Bonafide]

You could mix in railway/social history with model research and construction techniques

 

Any TV channels want to buy my idea/format?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

I doubt that TV channels will be rushing to buy your idea/format.  They want something that will appeal to a much larger audience, and Channel 5 appears to have been successful with the Great Model Railway Challenge. 

[TheQ]

I've only just watched the show, as yesterday (with Friday setting up) was our exhibition. Which is a pity, maybe if the series was finished just before our show, we might have gained more guests..

 

The show was better than expected but worse than it could be.

 

It appeared they showed less muddling time shown than preparation time on the cake off.

There was too much time talking heads, too much time repeating what was done before after adverts.

 

The modeling Was The best that could be expected it the time allowed..

[Pacific231G]

One of the things you will all need to bear in mind is that last nights show wasn't the first to be filmed. It was, in fact, the last heat filmed. They are being aired in the heat order: 5, 2, 3, 1, 4. So last nights show is the most polished in terms of production and judging. Decisions made in what you saw on Friday night were based on the experience of 12 or so days of doing other heats and the production company learning what needs to be done, what to shoot, what to ask, how things work. So much stuff that was actually filmed has been left out and they were really cramming in the bits of the programme to make it all fit.  But as with all things commercial television based, you have 48ish minutes 

Most of the questions asked have had an answer. But a few notes I'll add as a competitor; The layouts were taken away after filming.

I would imagine that the winning layout will be exhibited at Warley as it is two weeks after the final airs, but that is an assumption. Mattford (our layout from the heats) will be appearing at the CMRA show in Stevenage January next year, along with Ealing from Missenden (as seen last night).

If you think Missenden interpreted the rules well you wait until you see some of the other scratch build offerings! It's not cheating as I can state the rules did not specify the size of the scratch build items.

 

I went on the show to try and portray modelling in a favourable light. It's all very well saying they will make a mockery of us and it will ruin the hobby. But unless you do something to try and change that view.... The layout we completed looks very much like a layout 5 people took 3 x 8 hour days building with a very small amount of prep work before hand and I am quite proud of what we achieved. I will properly stand by that in January,

 

Well done to all three teams on Ep 1, good luck to the rest of us.

I wondered about the recordong order. It's long been common practice in factual series, especially with new formats, to not make programme one first. Even when programmes did have to be shown in order, I've often directed programme one after one or two others have been made and the production has settled down. In any case we tended to make one programme per studio day so had thinking time between them. There was a trade-off between the flexibility that came with making programmes well in advance and being able to tweak later episodes in light of early audience reaction when recording closer to transmission. In this case there's clearly no particular order to the heats so they can be shown in whatever order gives the series a good start and the best overall flow.

 

Thankfully., the days of TV programmes treating people with passions and hobbies as targets for mild amusement at best or ridicule at worst seem to have largely waned. I never quite understood why railway modelling was treated that way for so long given the number of people in the "creative industries" including producers and directors who are railway enthusiasts and modellers. I will continue to watch this series with interest.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Richard Jones]

I doubt that TV channels will be rushing to buy your idea/format.  They want something that will appeal to a much larger audience, and Channel 5 appears to have been successful with the Great Model Railway Challenge.

 

Funny that, neither do I! (but if you don't say it, they might think they can use it for free, and I don't get my state pension for a few years yet)

 

ps - tounge firmly in cheek!

[57xx]

Watched it on catch-up last night and it made for an entertaining hour. I certainly think the best team won, well done Malcolm and co! It's a shame there weren't better intros to all the members of all the teams instead of just focusing on the captains.

 

The Missenden team certainly stretched the rules, at what point does a "pre-built" item stop being within the intent? "We've only brought 1 pre-built item - the layout". Claiming 5 row of houses that sprawled across over half the layout was one pre-built item may have been creative interpretation, but not in the spirit of the actual competition IMO. The quality of the "modelling" they did in the actual 3 days certainly seemed to be lacking compared with the the other teams, but they got called out for it and paid the penalty.

 

I'm looking forward to the following episodes.

[The Stationmaster]

I was pleasantly surprised; I was expecting something cringeworthy and it wasn't.  Could have been better- I would have liked something along the lines of Scrapheap Challenge, where you have somebody explaining what needs to be done and why and how.  But, oh well.  It didn't leave me thinking I'd wasted an hour, nor am I on the edge of my seat for the next episode- which is more can be said for the 'walking lost railways' show which follows it, of which I watched two episodes and decided it wasn't worth it. 

 

I'd like to see more of Fawley Hill, which looks a really interesting sort of a place and 1:1 layout. 

 

Going slightly OT but the Fawley Hill Railway and museum etc are on the private MacAlpine Estate and is not normally open to the public although the railway station is licensed as a wedding venue.  in the past societies and clubs etc could have prearranged visits but i don't know if this is still the case since Sir William's death.  Lady McAlpine has in the past organised occasional public shows/events on the estate with the railway open to the public but she hasn't arranged on this year and I don't know whether such ideas will continue in view of Sir William's death.  It has been said that his son who has inherited the title is not particularly interested in railways.   But it's a great place to visit if you do hear of any public event going on there or are a member of a society which can arrange a private visit.

 

http://fawleyhill.co.uk/about-fawley-hill/

[queensquare]

Going slightly OT but the Fawley Hill Railway and museum etc are on the private MacAlpine Estate and is not normally open to the public although the railway station is licensed as a wedding venue.  in the past societies and clubs etc could have prearranged visits but i don't know if this is still the case since Sir William's death.  Lady McAlpine has in the past organised occasional public shows/events on the estate with the railway open to the public but she hasn't arranged on this year and I don't know whether such ideas will continue in view of Sir William's death.  It has been said that his son who has inherited the title is not particularly interested in railways.   But it's a great place to visit if you do hear of any public event going on there or are a member of a society which can arrange a private visit.

 

http://fawleyhill.co.uk/about-fawley-hill/

 

There have been a couple of open days this year and, as far as I know, this is set to continue for invited groups and societies. We were there in September this year and, as on previous visits, had a superb day out. The museum has some wonderful artifacts and its without doubt the most impressive garden railway I've ever seen!!

The good looking one in the middle is Kim, the two fat blokes are myself and Gascupboard Dave

 

 

 

 

Jerry

 

Edit to add that the climb to the upper station from the dear park where there are two more small stations is 1 in 13 - check out youtube ,its full regulator stuff bouncing around in a 4 wheel wagon - -marvelous.   

Edited October 7, 2018 by queensquare

[Captain Kernow]

most modellers should realise it's your hobby it's meant to be FUN.

I suppose it depends on how you define 'fun'.

 

I really don't like being told that I should be having 'fun'.

 

But I do expect most of what I do in my hobby to be 'enjoyable to me'. That might not constitute 'fun' to someone else.

 

Tant pis.

[Captain Kernow]

 

I know Ian Rice and others did attempt this with a P4 layout at ScaleForum in 1993. But P4 (or even EM) is probably a too-hairy shirt for a fun project that would resonate with the wider public.

 

 

As far as I can recall, there was a more recent attempt to build a layout during the two days of a show, either at RailEx or Scaleforum. Either way, it was in that sports hall at Stoke Mandeville.

[Captain Kernow]

I will just reiterate that I am now persuaded that this show is a Good Thing.

 

I also hope that there will be a further series or even more.

 

In the future, what would also be nice to see, could be:

 

- short videos demonstrating certain techniques (as mentioned by several others already in this thread), together with an explanation of technical terms

 

- some coverage of the work that the judges do, both the excellent modelling by Kathy Millatt and perhaps some sequences showing the life of the RM editor?

 

- some coverage of the kind of quality modelling that we all aspire to, given time, skill, patience, experience etc. - eg. Pendon, the work/layouts of the likes of Gordon & Maggie Gravatt, Geoff Kent and other, superb modellers

 

- some coverage showing the different scales and gauges available and how most of us should be able to find room for even a small layout in our respective homes (even if just a tiny 2mm 'shunting plank')

 

- some mention of the huge range of model railway exhibitions taking place around the country almost every weekend of the year and information on the model railway clubs that put such shows on.

 

 

Perhaps some of the above will appear in future shows in this current series.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Captain Kernow

[Ouroborus]

I came late to this and watched it on catchup.

 

I have a little experience in this type of thing and can tell you that the way Missenden were portrayed was no accident.  As has been touched upon, the production crew give you free reign to say too much, knowing that this can be edited down to make a story.  Not say enough?  Well a couple of careful questions may help solved that.  I noticed that when Strangers were announced as winners, the camera was tight on them, not wide to capture the faces of the others.  I took it from this that Barry(?) of Missenden must have been very gracious in defeat and not displayed the type of 'face' that the producers really wanted.  Fair play to him - it was a shame he was portrayed as a baddie - there were a couple of quips from the presenter that didn't help this negative portrayal.  As for the standard of the modelling, it was perfectly imperfect.  The whole point of these types of shows is to show the bumps, bulges and soggy bottoms and in many ways its better they do.  Perfect models are aspirational, but most of us will never have this skill (or time).  The models shown were built quickly and with rough edges - this is the PERFECT inspiration to get more people into model trains, just like bake off has done with the millennial generation.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I will just reiterate that I am now persuaded that this show is a Good Thing.

 

I also hope that there will be a further series or even more.

 

In the future, what would also be nice to see, could be:

 

- short videos demonstrating certain techniques (as mentioned by several others already in this thread), together with an explanation of technical terms

 

- some coverage of the work that the judges do, both the excellent modelling by Kathy Millatt and perhaps some sequences showing the life of the RM editor?

 

- some coverage of the kind of quality modelling that we all aspire to, given time, skill, patience, experience etc. - eg. Pendon, the work/layouts of the likes of Gordon & Maggie Gravatt, Geoff Kent and other, superb modellers

 

- some coverage showing the different scales and gauges available and how most of us should be able to find room for even a small layout in our respective homes (even if just a tiny 2mm 'shunting plank')

 

- some mention of the huge range of model railway exhibitions taking place around the country almost every weekend of the year and information on the model railway clubs that put such shows on.

 

 

Perhaps some of the above will appear in future shows in this current series.

Unfortunately most of what you mention are nothing really to do with this type of show. They are for a more specialised programme on model railways, which, I doubt I will want to watch as my interest is not full scale accurate modelling. I am more into the convert old rtr TT Dublo etc. You have to realise the time constraints on the aired programme. To me too much time on the outside areas and repeated sayings after breaks spoil it. We have alljust seen part 1 so why after the adverts in part 2 do we need telling what happend? That is not just this show though.

 

Garry

[TEAMYAKIMA]

May I defend the TV company here 

 

I have a little experience in this type of thing and can tell you that the way Missenden were portrayed was no accident.  As has been touched upon, the production crew give you free reign to say too much, knowing that this can be edited down to make a story. . 

 

Nothing personal against Barrie or anyone 'defending' him - but like it or not ................. Whilst the production company may have selectively edited things, at the end of the day he did say those things. I feel that he had the right to think those thoughts and I probably agree with him - it's just you might not want to actually say them out loud - and to a journalist with a TV camera turned on. And if you do say them out loud you have to take the consequences.

 

I noticed that when Strangers were announced as winners, the camera was tight on them, not wide to capture the faces of the others.  I took it from this that Barry(?) of Missenden must have been very gracious in defeat and not displayed the type of 'face' that the producers really wanted.  

 

On the contrary, if I remember correctly, Barrie was shown warmly congratulating the winners and smiling broadly.

 

Let me finish by making it clear that I was extremely impressed by the very advanced concepts of the Missenden layout and that in normal circumstances I would agree with Barrie. I think that the Missenden layout had what it takes to be the best layout, but only by ignoring the basic rules of the competition. In other words it became the best by, at the very least, bending the rules.

 

I look forward to seeing the Missenden layout completed.

Edited October 7, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Butler Henderson]

Obviously if their is a second series they will review the first series and see how they could have done things differently / better. As for non explaining what various terms meant that might have taken place but got left out of the final edit - what C5 do not seem to do in comparison to the BBC is back a program up with on line resources which would be a way of extending a viewers interest in the subject although its not too difficult to google static grass for example and find out what it is if someone wanted to.