DJM, the end.

[Colin_McLeod]

I have difficulty reconciling the micro accounts with what we have been told.

 

I would have thought that the crowdfunders future payments would be included in "debtors" and the value of the models to be supplied would appear in the "creditors".  The numbers in the accounts are too small for this to be the case.

[Scottish-Exile]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

About the £250 none of us ever expected it back so none of us is short of planned cash.  What we expected was to have to pay another £750 and then get a model train in return.

 

Substitute appropriate figures for the King and the 92.

 

The model train will not now appear but our cash box is £750 better off.

 

The point I am making is that none of us have suffered a cash problem because of the collapse of DJmodels, unlike Dave who presumably had reckoned on getting back the much larger sums of money he invested in the company.

 

Just saying this to put relative "losses" in perspective.

 

Yup. This sums it up perfectly for me.

 

I put down £150 for the Class 92 (5 x £30) and £250 for the APT.

 

Over the past year or so I started telling myself that should the oft quoted imminent 2nd Invoice arrived, that I was probably going to bail out. I had lost all confidence in DJM being able to deliver.

 

Am I happy at losing £400 ?. Not really, but I'm a whole lot happier in the knowledge that I am saved from spending considerably more and throwing good money after bad. As Colin says, that money was spent along time ago and was budgeted for at that time.

 

In a small perverse way, I'm comforted that the decision was taken out of my hands. It wouldn't have been a nice feeling if I (and others) bailed which then became the cause of the company failing or others losing money. The fact that the company has folded prior to those 2nd invoice requests is a small personal comfort.

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

25 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

 

I actually found this post pretty well balanced. Whilst I wouldn't necessarily agree with everything that's written, I didn't view it as a "gloat" or an "I told you so". I think it eloquently sets out the position and view that many of us are in and have, respectively.

 

It offers sympathy for the main protagonist, whilst providing a view  of the reason for the company demise. It separates the actions of the company, from the aims and intentions of the individual, something many posts on this thread have failed to do, whether intentional or not. 

 

As such I don't see much wrong with it, other than the bits I disagree with (which after all, is merely a difference of opinion)

 

My view, for what it may be worth, speaking as someone who has potentially lost money, and more importantly (for me), the opportunity of multiple Class 17s - A King, was really a Rule 1 altruistic punt.

 

Best

 

Scott

 

It wasn't so much that post as the pervious one which suggested anybody who ordered had fallen for hype and should have known better. There was no acknowledgement that when the APT was launched, by DToS (with DJ as the manufacturer), it was a very different situation. There was no mention of crowdfunding as such - it was an order, and if the numbers were reached then a deposit required.

 

Quote

To order the OO Gauge APT-P click on the model you wish to purchase and enter your name and contact details.

When you get to the postage section just click on the store collect and this will reserve that model for you.

Providing we get to the target number you will be notified about any progress and deposits to take this forward.

 

Yes, the situation changed thereafter, but that was later.

Roy

[scottystitch]

1 minute ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

It wasn't so much that post as the pervious one which suggested anybody who ordered had fallen for hype and should have known better. There was no acknowledgement that when the APT was launched, by DToS (with DJ as the manufacturer), it was a very different situation. There was no mention of crowdfunding as such - it was an order, and if the numbers were reached then a deposit required.

 

 

Yes, the situation changed thereafter, but that was later.

Roy

Roy, that's a fair point.

 

Best

 

Scott

[JSpencer]

Check to see if the credit card has insurance. Gold and Platinum types should have at least.

[Phil Parker]

30 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

400 crowd-funders for the OO APT, (same as N ) @£250 and

1000 crowd- funders for 92 in OO @£30 and

1000 crowd-funders for 92 in N @£30 and

1000 for King in N  @ £30 (same as the target for the 63xx in N) , 

 

we get a notional £190K of crowd-funding, if these projects were fully funded (and if they weren't they shouldn't have proceeded...)

 

Please do not pull figures out of the air and then do maths on them to prove a point. Unless the numbers have a basis in verifiable fact, it proves nothing. 

[Phil Parker]

Right - If you feel the need to post racist comments on here about the Chinese then I will first delete them, and then throw you off RMweb.

 

Final warning. I've got better things to do than try to hide posts faster then people can react to them.

 

If this becomes a significant problem, this thread will be locked again, and stay locked. 

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, LaGrange said:

 

I just hope people are not as quick to grab their wallets in the future when an unproven company announces crowdfunding

 

The problem is, every company is unproven when they first set up.

Roy

[LaGrange]

Just now, Roy Langridge said:

 

The problem is, every company is unproven when they first set up.

Roy

 

Hence why you need capital, or at least a few quid to show a completed 3D print of the model you propose to make

 

If it was that easy to set up a RTR manufacturing company why does everyone not do it

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Just now, Roy Langridge said:

 

The problem is, every company is unproven when they first set up.

Roy

 

I would argue that in this case, DJM wasn't unproven.  A history of issues was there, perhaps not in plain sight but easy enough to do due diligence and make an informed decision based on prior achievements.  

[Ryde-on-time]

4 minutes ago, LaGrange said:

 

Hence why you need capital, or at least a few quid to show a completed 3D print of the model you propose to make

 

If it was that easy to set up a RTR manufacturing company why does everyone not do it

Perhaps it is? Looking at the KRModels GT3 thread, the second installment is already being asked for with only an incomplete CAD shown

 

Lots of enthusiasm and positive spin from the person behind it though (although not many answers to difficult questions)

[Roy Langridge]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

I would argue that in this case, DJM wasn't unproven.  A history of issues was there, perhaps not in plain sight but easy enough to do due diligence and make an informed decision based on prior achievements.  

 

To be fair DJM WAS unproved when it set up - Dave Jones himself may have had issues in the past, but to be honest who would usually go hunting for the background on company directors and their employment in other companies as a matter of course? As for ordering the APT, DJM had at that point delivered several models - yes some people don't like some aspects, many loved them.

 

As I have said before, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

Roy

[Roy Langridge]

10 minutes ago, LaGrange said:

 

Hence why you need capital, or at least a few quid to show a completed 3D print of the model you propose to make

 

If it was that easy to set up a RTR manufacturing company why does everyone not do it

 

I don't disagree with that at all - just not sure what the relevance was to your previous comment about unproven companies.

 

I have a CAD for a Ffestiniog Prince that have been working on in Blender. I could show that, but I sure as hell hope you don't want to give me money to build it for you because I couldn't do that!

 

To me being proven means delivering something, not just showing some pretty pictures.

Roy

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

1 minute ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

To be fair DJM WAS unproved when it set up - Dave Jones himself may have had issues in the past, but to be honest who would usually go hunting for the background on company directors and their employment in other companies as a matter of course? As for ordering the APT, DJM had at that point delivered several models - yes some people don't like some aspects, many loved them.

 

As I have said before, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

Roy

 

I did go hunting.  The quality and tone of DJM communications made me uncomfortable, so I decided to see whether it was me being unduly suspicious, or whether there was an issue. 

 

I didn't have to dig far, a couple of hours on various forums and I had enough information to inform my thoughts on this matter.

 

It was definitely not hindsight, just caution and what turned out to be an appropriate level of scepticism.

[Damo666]

2 hours ago, DavidH said:

 

He did say this, and it was repeatedly used on here to silence critics. But it depends what everyone thinks his house is worth. According to Zoopla the house is worth around £100k. Still not what crowdfunders may have risked on the company.

I risked £30.

If what you (Zoopla) estimate is correct, he's risked his:

Family house.

Lost his business

Damaged his reputation

and severely hampered his employment in this industry.

 

It's happened. Nothing here will change the history of DJM, and nothing here will influence the outcome to make it different.

I think we need to give the guy a break.

[truffy]

28 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

I have a CAD for a Ffestiniog Prince that have been working on in Blender. I could show that, but I sure as hell hope you don't want to give me money to build it for you because I couldn't do that!

Funny you should say that. I only recently noticed that the CAD images on DJM were created with a free version of whatever software package was being used. Doesn’t seem too professional IMO. 

12 minutes ago, Damo666 said:

he's risked his:

Family house.

I have no idea what DJ put up as collateral but if the house is in his partner’s name, and she ceased to be a director last year IIRC, then he still has a roof over his head. Despite the builders. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by truffy

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Damo666 said:

I risked £30.

If what you (Zoopla) estimate is correct, he's risked his:

Family house.

Lost his business

Damaged his reputation

and severely hampered his employment in this industry.

 

It's happened. Nothing here will change the history of DJM, and nothing here will influence the outcome to make it different.

I think we need to give the guy a break.

 

Yep. You've got to put it into perspective. If you can't afford to risk it then crowdfunding isn't for you.

 

It also doesn't help when individuals who weren't even part of the crowdfunding are putting the boot in for some obscure reason.

 

My sympathies go out to all that have been affected. Some others should be having a good look at themselves in the mirror.

 

 

 

Jason

[njee20]

10 minutes ago, truffy said:

Funny you should say that. I only recently noticed that the CAD images on DJM were created with a free version of whatever software package was being used. Doesn’t seem too professional IMO. 

 

Dave simply used the free version to show CADs, they’d have been designed with the “full fat” version. We’ve done this before multiple times. 

[Colin_McLeod]

9 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

I have no idea what DJ put up as collateral but if the house is in his partner’s name, and she ceased to be a director last year IIRC, then he still has a roof over his head. Despite the builders. 

It's not that simple. Putting assets in the wife's name no longer guarantees that they are out of the reach of creditors.

[truffy]

7 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Dave simply used the free version to show CADs, they’d have been designed with the “full fat” version. We’ve done this before multiple times. 

It would still look more professional if the images had been exported from the full fat version. Just my opinion, obviously. 

[njee20]

They were. Just not viewed on it. If Dave spent thousands on a CAD package to share some images people would be up in arms about that. Stop trying to find fault. 

[Legend]

31 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

I did go hunting.  The quality and tone of DJM communications made me uncomfortable, so I decided to see whether it was me being unduly suspicious, or whether there was an issue. 

 

I didn't have to dig far, a couple of hours on various forums and I had enough information to inform my thoughts on this matter.

 

It was definitely not hindsight, just caution and what turned out to be an appropriate level of scepticism.

 

Yes similar thoughts here .  Its difficult isn't it . Someone produces a model you want and you get carried away with enthusiasm , heart rules over head.  If someone offered a Caley Dunalastair in rich Caley Blue I'd be torn , but being naturally sceptical and a CA to boot ,sensible head does eventually take over .   I did fancy an APT , but something about the way it was presented rang alarm bells . First it was "N" then because so many people enquired he was going to do an "OO" one , then really I thought all the options were just too complicated , 5 car , 7 car ,14 car .  the whole project looked like it had been inspired over a drink down the pub and like topsy it just grew. I'm really amazed that there are so many people wanting a 14 car train .Do expressions of interest translate into orders, I had my doubts.  And now we are talking a complex train , tilting , coupling systems, lighting , from a relatively new company  and serious money .  Was it DToS  or DJ , what were the terms and conditions . By that time the red flags were emphatic and it was relatively easy to turn away .   But I mention this because for a while even sceptical me , really wanting one , was about to sign up.  I ended up with a Hornby one off of eBay. So I really sympathize with those that signed up and hope they may yet get at least a proportion of money back . That's up to the liquidators now .

 

As to DJ himself , he must be devastated . I note from the newspaper article about the assault that he is a designer  and I hope he can find employment doing that somewhere . Probably not in model railways . I think credibility has been blown irretrievably there. As well as potential customers there seem to have been issues with China and didn't he leave Dapol suddenly ?  It would probably be as well for him to find something else to do and leave model railways as a hobby which I hope someday he can enjoy again.

 

 

[Ouroborus]

1 minute ago, Legend said:

 

I note from the newspaper article about the assault that he is a designer  and I hope he can find employment doing that somewhere . Probably not in model railways . 

 

 

 

Apparently he is due to send his CV out in "the next few days"

['CHARD]

3 minutes ago, Legend said:

1 minute ago, Ouroborus said:

 

Apparently he is due to send his CV out in "the next few days"

.

I imagine this is one CV that will need adjusting.  

 

 

[truffy]

5 minutes ago, njee20 said:

They were. Just not viewed on it. If Dave spent thousands on a CAD package to share some images people would be up in arms about that. Stop trying to find fault. 

The images on DJM clearly were not because they’re marked. If the CAD designer is using the full fat version, as you stated, it would just look better if they had exported the images for web display. That’s all.