When and how did BR decide to stop building corridor coaches?

[montyburns56]

I've always wondered what was the process when BR decided to stop building corridor coaches. Was there ever an official decision/announcement made or was there just a gradual move away from designing/building them?

[hexagon789]

2 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

I've always wondered what was the process when BR decided to stop building corridor coaches. Was there ever an official decision/announcement made or was there just a gradual move away from designing/building them?

 

The last to be built would be the Mk2d (both First Corridor and Brake First Corridor types) for loco-hauled coaching stock and the six first class compartments in the DTFoL driving trailers of the Class 442 EMUs for units.

 

The prototype HST was originally going to have a corridor first trailer but this was changed before construction commenced.

 

I think this may have coincided with the decision to serve meals at-seat in first class on some trains, the Harris Mk2 book gives this as the reason why the Mk2e and 2f stock was built as all open saloon types.

[jim.snowdon]

Wasn't one of the cars in the 442 sets provided with side corridor and compartments?

 

Jim

[andyman7]

Yes, see post above!

 

[dvdlcs]

Would criminal acts such as vandalism have been a factor, considering the gradual decline in civilisation?

 

Or is the answer as prosaic as you can fit more seats in an open coach without all those pesky partitions getting in the way? And no doubt simpler/cheaper to build too.

[jim.snowdon]

18 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Yes, see post above!

 

Doh! Missed that. 

 

Jim

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, dvdlcs said:

Would criminal acts such as vandalism have been a factor, considering the gradual decline in civilisation?

 

Or is the answer as prosaic as you can fit more seats in an open coach without all those pesky partitions getting in the way? And no doubt simpler/cheaper to build too.

Air con is a major factor too, as air flow is much more efficient in an open vehicle.

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, dvdlcs said:

Would criminal acts such as vandalism have been a factor, considering the gradual decline in civilisation?

 

Or is the answer as prosaic as you can fit more seats in an open coach without all those pesky partitions getting in the way? And no doubt simpler/cheaper to build too.

Certainly, issues of public safety and vandalism were, I believe, instrumental in the removal of compartments from much of the suburban emu stock.

 

Construction costs for new stock would have been lower, simply due to the reduction in work involved, but at the time it probably had negligible effect on the seating capacity as the seating layout and pitch was largely unaltered (face to face bays, 2+2 seating). It was only later, after BR that train operators started squeezing more in by adopting face to back seating and minimal tables.

 

Jim

[keefer]

When the mk2 programme got underway it was intended to have the same range of coach types as with the mk1s (14 types), but this was knocked on the head by the Govt. Going forward, there would have to be better utilisation of stock (through better diagramming of coach sets) and any new builds would have to be financially justified.

As a result, only 5 mk2 types would be built and the decision was made to have all 2nd class accommodation as open stock. Compartments were retained for 1st class.

What resulted was BSO, TSO, SO (2+1 seating for dining on LMR trains), BFK and FK.

The FO first appeared with the mk2c and as stated above, by the time of the mk2e, all stock was open.

Certainly by the time of the Modern Image plan in 1965, there was also a desire to encourage the family/leisure/tourist market with new light and airy passenger stock instead of the dark 'old-fashioned' compartments. 1st class continued to be more 'business' driven where there was a preference for compartments. 1st class open dining was catered for with mk1 FO or RUO

[Legend]

I think it was simply that society had moved on . No doubt at seat dining was part of it, but I think a lot of people were feeling isolated in compartments , young ladies etc . And maybe most of all it just appeared old fashioned and had to be swept away in the 70s!  How many old TV programmes do you see where train scenes are in a compartment (I'm thinking Likely Lads, Two Ronnies etc) . It just wasn't the image the new BR wanted to portray, it had to go , along with the stale BR sandwich.

 

 

[D826]

Mark 2 compartment stock   Sheer luxury in the early 70s for me and the family as a lad.  A Mark2a or c and a compartment from Dawlish for a day out in Plymouth.  Even better if there was a western on the front.

 

When did the last compartment stock go ?  My last trip in one must have been circa 88/89 travelling back to London from Leeds. There was Sunday engineering and there was a 47 on a pretty knackered load of Mark 1s from Doncaster to KingsX.  Memory might be playing tricks, but I'm sure the carriage had  steam heat controls (out of use as it was summer and obviously anything which could have supplied steam heat was long gone - when was the last steam heat passenger train I wonder)?  Final hurrah of non aircon Mk2s for me was during bad flooding in 89/90, and a 47 on non aircon Mk2 opens - from Cheltenham- blasting through Yatton and across the Somerset levels.  Great seats, great view and legroom.  

 

I love Mark 2s of whatever flavour.  

 

Best regards happy weekend and stay well all.

 

Matt W

Edited March 27, 2020 by D826
Sense

[woodenhead]

I reckon corridor stock went out with the Merrymaker excursions, they were what always turned up on the mystery tour trains.

[Steamport Southport]

Corridor stock was still being used on Regional Railways  "Oop North" until well into the 1990s. Seemed to disappear from service with the Class 31 loco hauled trains.

 

Used to travel on them virtually daily, but never really took much notice apart from realising what they were. Not enough notice to jot down numbers, formations, etc.

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

........    Construction costs for new stock would have been lower, simply due to the reduction in work involved, but at the time it probably had negligible effect on the seating capacity as the seating layout and pitch was largely unaltered (face to face bays, 2+2 seating)  ..........

 

Ah, but there was an economy when the MkIIIs came along : you could squeeze the lower classes into a First Class bodyshell - and hope they didn't complain to loudly when they got a view of a window pillar !

[The Johnster]

The XP64 set is pivotal to this, the first coaches built in the blue/grey livery.  Several ideas were trialled on this set and the public asked for it's comments and views.  The second class expressed a preference for open stock and first, no doubt wanting to read their Financial Times in peace, wanted compartments.  Another popular innovation was the double hinged wider doors, which materialised eventually in the mk2 series as wrap around.  Another thing often talked about in the 60s was aircraft type seats, recliners with fold down tables, and these were tried on the XP64 and mk2s as well.  I never thought they were a good idea on a train, where comfort is a major selling point in comparison with coach or aircraft travel.

 

The mk3 was IMHO a backward step as it broke the convention that each seating bay or compartment had it's own window; still did in 1st, of course, and the aim was a standard bodyshell.  I get the need for it but still think it was a backward step and introduced more cramped aircraft type seats.  IMHO the best stock ever build for main line long distance traffic in the UK was the various air conditioned mk2s, which exceeded Pullman standards in both classes and rode superbly.  

[H2O]

I think the last corridor coaches built were much later than the Mk2.  The Mk5 built 2016-2018 are corridor sleepers - something to do with privacy I think! :-)

 

I too remember the Mk1 and Mk2 corridor coaches fondly.  Was only a kid but it used to allow you to run up and down the train away from your parents but also not annoy anyone.  Couldn't do that with an open coach and with lots of bags and feet to trip over moving up and down in modern stock to go to the toilet or find a seat is a right pain for those moving and the people crammed in with no luggage space causing bags to overflow into the walking space, grrr.

[andyman7]

CIGs and VEPs each had one standard class compartment per driving coach following declassification of part of the 1st class. So until 2005 it was still possible to use a compartment even in standard class if you knew where to go.

[montyburns56]

Thanks for everyone's replies, so it seems to have been due to a combination of costs, capacity, aircon efficiency, meal serving & safety.

 

Jason's comment about the 90s RR trains in the North West does also raise the question of when was the last regular loco hauled train that still used any corridor coach and when was the last one scrapped/sold?

[keefer]

There were also quite a few mk2-2c FK and BFK declassified to SK and BSK (inc. 6 mk2c to CK in Scotland).

Don't know when they lasted until though.

[H2O]

Joking aside there are issues with evacuating passengers from a corridor coach in the event it overturns. I think there was an accident involving a sleeping car where the emergency services found it very difficult to get through the carriage as the corridor became a wide but very low access route. I'm unsure if the new build corridor sleepers give a better solution than the older coaches?

[adb968008]

Eurostars class 374’s have some compartments in passenger use.

 

ive used them for phone calls while travelling.

Edited March 27, 2020 by adb968008

[newbryford]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The XP64 set is pivotal to this, the first coaches built in the blue/grey livery.  Several ideas were trialled on this set and the public asked for it's comments and views.  The second class expressed a preference for open stock and first, no doubt wanting to read their Financial Times in peace, wanted compartments.  Another popular innovation was the double hinged wider doors, which materialised eventually in the mk2 series as wrap around.  Another thing often talked about in the 60s was aircraft type seats, recliners with fold down tables, and these were tried on the XP64 and mk2s as well.  I never thought they were a good idea on a train, where comfort is a major selling point in comparison with coach or aircraft travel.

 

 

 

Another distinguishing feature was the staggered corridor.

Quite odd walking down one and finding that the corridor finished halfway and then crossed over to the other side........

I think the last regular use of XP64 stock was in the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Bristol overnight services. (A favourite service when I was doing all-line rover tickets in the late 70s.) Pretty certain I travelled in one of the FKs downgraded to second in it's last year or so.

 

[47513]

11 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

Jason's comment about the 90s RR trains in the North West does also raise the question of when was the last regular loco hauled train that still used any corridor coach and when was the last one scrapped/sold?

DRS had a Mk2 BFK that found its way into the Greater Anglia class 37 operated ‘short set’ a couple of years ago. Unfortunately the compartment end was locked out of use, something to do with platform lengths at some of the stations I believe. 
 

I don’t know if they still have the vehicle now. 
 

I generally travel alone and I don’t like compartments unless I can get one to myself. Even in first class that would make for very inefficient use of space. Far better to have an open coach with a mix of ‘seating unit’ sizes ie. four around a table, one/two in airline seats etc. 

[Right Away]

Not actualy pertaining to the corridor coach itself, but the operation of EPB stock on the Southern Region underwent some changes, IIRC during the '80s.

Essentially, stock were rearranged whereby the compartment only vehicles where exchanged between units, the idea to form trains with all-open seating for the safety and security of passengers.

The units which retained the compartment vehicles were then supposed to be restricted in use and not operate beyond 8pm.

 

The compartments of corridor coaches were obviously not so isolating for the occupants as those of non-corridor stock, allowing movement within vehicle and train should the need arise (avoiding obnoxious or threatening persons) but the all-open vehicle had won the day in this respect.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Right Away
Hard skin on fingertips - naff typing!!!

[caradoc]

In August 1993 I had a ride on the 1138 Preston-Barrow service in ex-BFK 17097, formerly 14097, and now declassified to a BSK but not yet renumbered in the 355xx, series, as happened to a number of BFKs.