Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

['CHARD]

I'm currently building a standard gauge terminus of a preserved line because being tied down to one era or railway company isn't any fun to me, it's like going into a sweet shop and only tasting the one kind of sweet no matter how much you may like that sherburt lemon at first after a few months eating only them it gets boring.

I would agree with that sentiment for plenty of present day BLTs, because that accurately sums them up.

 

However, it's grossly incorrect for main line modelling - say - 1967 Scottish Borders (just to pick an example), where you have grimy late steam exotica, green and blue diesels all in transition - some of which didn't make it into TOPS - and a wide range of operational interest, with train formations so varied they provide hours of research interest even before you get to the acquiring/ building/ operating stage.

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Why is it preserved lines don't have models of their own line as it's intended to be once all the major work restoring buildings/Pway/stock and so on has been done? Good way to show people what they are helping to pay for and maybe get a little more cash flowing in if they stuck a donation box next to it.

 

I'm currently building a standard gauge terminus of a preserved line because being tied down to one era or railway company isn't any fun to me, it's like going into a sweet shop and only tasting the one kind of sweet no matter how much you may like that sherburt lemon at first after a few months eating only them it gets boring.

Quite a few preserved lines offer wagons finished in P.O. liveries appropriate to themselves. Locomotives are a different matter, few if any preserved lines would have the necessary funds to commission a specific locomotive unless it was already available in RTR form, indeed some such locomotives are copied from preserved examples.

One necessity for a preserved line would be a 'heritage' DMU, their use seems to be ubiquitous on all preserved lines except 'steam only' lines such as the Bluebell.

I am considering modelling a preserved railway based very loosely on the East Kent Railway. I have a mixture of kit built/bashed and RTR items that I can use as well as some rather battered rolling stock that I have picked up for pennies at swap meets ect.

 

 

[t-b-g]

I have seen some models based on preserved lines at exhibitions over the years. It seems to me that the usual reason for building them is "I can run almost anything I like". This is fair enough but if you run models of real locos that were never preserved, on a mythical preserved railway, you are well into "freelance" modelling. If you are going to go "freelance" (and I am not saying that this is a bad thing - done properly it is a very interesting branch of the hobby) then you are probably better off going the whole hog and modelling a "freelance" fully operational railway rather than a "freelance" preserved one. Even the best real preserved railway is very limited operationally. When was the last time anybody saw a goods train being shunted properly? 99% of the time operation consists of a number of fixed rakes of carriages going along a line, backwards and forwards all day.

 

I would be bored silly after a very short while.

 

I prefer the idea of modelling something like the private line of the "Duke of Somewhere". This still serves his private estate into the 1970s, with DMUs on passenger and Class 25s on the freight service to his quarry, where he has his private collection of locos bought straight out of service, which run up and down the "main" line with his ex royal saloon, while his industrial tanks and obscure diesel shunters work the internal quarry sidings.

 

A little imagination can give all the freedom of modelling a preserved line but with much more operational potential.

[f#m]

There can be a lot of interesting shunts on these layouts if you make the timetable as it were for operating the layout such that it starts when the railway is in its beginings with old battered stock and out of sevice locos and shunt them in and out of sheds and into trains to be put away into a siding to be waiting in the que for work and if you have multiple examples of most items of stock representing them at various stages of being restored or overhauled you can have a fantastic amount of interesting options for trains to run, shunts to do with the ever changing stock. I think operating it in this way would make it a pretty interesting exhibition layout.

[newbryford]

I prefer to model a fictional section of the real railway, but run "heritage" traction as a railtour.

 

Not easy to do on an end-to-end layout with the swapping of loco/support coach/tail-lamp coach, but when the roundy-roundy comes back onto the scene, the railtour with kettle or western or d*lt*c will be back with a vengeance!

 

Cheers,

Mick

[coachmann]

Every entry on here is a personal viewpoint, and mine is no exception. It looks to me like many layout owners cram far too much onto the baseboards so that one is looking at wall-to-wall products from Peco, Hornby, Bachmann, Corgi and Pocketbond. Owners have no problems running HSTs alongside steam and diesel trains in BR and other liveries, and to a certain extent they resemble preserved railways!

[rob D2]

tricky question,

Alot of 'preserved lines' don't have the most interesting infrastructure (single line, grotty portacabins, piles of scrap wating to be preserved) but some do.

I think the problem as hinted at before is that of interesting operation. I had considered doing something on the WSR to minehead - pretty line, through charter trains, the EWS freight as happened in the late 90s, but on an average day the operation would be a bit dull timetable wise.

[PhilH]

As someone who is involved with a preserved railway line I can see how it wouldn't make the best model operationally - but isn't that also true of 90% of any lines anywhere that have existed since railways began?

 

Surely every builder / operator has to invoke artistic licence when playing with their trainset - 1 train per hour or less as on a lot of prototypes doesn't make for much excitement.

[James]

Maybe it's because they aren't 'real' railways? They're almost like 'steam zoos' at times at many locations.

 

I recently read Rolt's Railway Advneture and you se in their he was determined to make sure the Talyllyn remained part of the community and not just for tourists - I doubt most 'preserved' railways really serve their communities as railways - mostly the benefit is from the money which their visitors spend when they are in the vicinity.

[Steven B]

I think at least one reason why preserved/heritage lines are less popular is that they don't run revenue earning services - either passenger or freight. They exist as partial historic preservation of certain items of stock and infrastructure, used mainly for the purposes of 'entertaining' the general public

 

 

Surely all the passenger trains on preserved railways are revenue earning otherwise the train ride would be free!

 

There have been many examples of real freight being hauled on preserved railways. One of the biggest recently was the use of the section of the East Lancs railway between Castleton and Baron St for the transporting of materials for the track relaying work on Metrolink.

 

 

I think the problem as hinted at before is that of interesting operation. I had considered doing something on the WSR to minehead - pretty line, through charter trains, the EWS freight as happened in the late 90s, but on an average day the operation would be a bit dull timetable wise.

 

Most of the larger lines with a mainline connection have run through trains onto the national network - The Royal Train running on the SVR is a very good, if unusual example.

 

As for a dull timetable, I'm guessing that the average gala weekend has many, many more trains than the line had in BR or big four days. How many of the GWR branchlines that often get modelled saw more than three or four trains a day?

 

If anything modelling a preserved railway is much more like the average model railway. How many model two platform branchline termini have a big glass canopy like that at Kidderminster compared to the number on the national network?

 

Don't forget Keighley on the list of preserved stations that are next to national rail ones.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[scots region]

Maybe it's because they aren't 'real' railways? They're almost like 'steam zoos' at times at many locations.

 

I recently read Rolt's Railway Advneture and you se in their he was determined to make sure the Talyllyn remained part of the community and not just for tourists - I doubt most 'preserved' railways really serve their communities as railways - mostly the benefit is from the money which their visitors spend when they are in the vicinity.

 

 

I have also read RAILWAY ADVENTURE but I argue preserved railway's can bring in tourism and serve the local community, in the case of the Talyllyn its preservation allowed the remote community's a more direct route to the main center of Towyn, otherwise they would have to rely on a longer and less substantial road. Incidentally I have been thinking of a 4MM model of Dolgoch (both the station and the Loco) I have also thought of modelling a fictional steam railway owned at first by BR and then, along the lines of Titfield, when the time of closure came a group of community members formed a new company and bought the line to run for the community, for this I was thinking of using Bachmann junior stock.

[coachmann]

Quantity isnt everything. We were living in a museum where time had stood still and pre-Beeching trains were indeed few and far between on many lines in steam days. Modernisation came in the form of newer coaches and BR built engines, followed by DMUs, but these were still real trains doing the jobs they'de done for almost 90 years, taking people to work, shopping and on holiday. Small wonder we went home fully inspired even by the quiet branchlines of the time. If a preserved brachline does it for you, then go for it!

[Butler Henderson]

A preserved layout done well can be popular - Dduallt and Goathland spring to mind. However there is too much tendancy for the anything goes on many which whilst acceptable as a one off can stretch credibility too far. I am working on a layout that can run as late 50s, mid 60s, late 80s and late 00s - the latter two being as a preserved line (the two periods due to trying run the correct locos at that date in contrast to anying goes). This will have a changeable scene across the front of the layout, a BR lorry depot with a small car dealers changing into it being entirely a car dealers and then it has been landscaped as a park with benches in which a vehicle rally is taking place.

[Ian J.]

Surely all the passenger trains on preserved railways are revenue earning otherwise the train ride would be free!

While that is a 'truism', I think you know I meant revenue earning as in 'A to B' as a means of transport, not a leisure activity

[James]

I have also read RAILWAY ADVENTURE but I argue preserved railway's can bring in tourism and serve the local community

 

But take the NYMR for example, it does bring in a lot of visitors to the cummunities through which is runs, but someone in Pickering can no longer go to their local station and catch a train which could take them to York and then catch a connection to, say, London.

[scots region]

But take the NYMR for example, it does bring in a lot of visitors to the cummunities through which is runs, but someone in Pickering can no longer go to their local station and catch a train which could take them to York and then catch a connection to, say, London.

 

 

But my point was that a preserved railway can allow locals to serve their needs without the need of a longer trip, in the case of the NYMR it provides services to Whitby which surely must provide services for the locals. Anyway the point of this topic is WHY ARE PRESERVED RAILWAYS (seemingly ) UNPOPULAR AS LAYOUT SUBJETS?.

[oldshutterbug]

Thank Goodness I am not a perfectionist and model for fun, I well remember steam around Birmingham in the 1950s and enjoy watching DVDs of preserved railways back home, sadly being in Oz its a long way to visit, just running Kings, Jubilee's, Coronations, Panniers, Jintys, Patriots and a few older diesels is a total pleasure, I am building a preserved railway of my own imagination set in the High Peak area of Derbyshire modelleing the village of Castleton that never had a train running through it, what the heck this hobby is about using your own imagination and having fun, having the best preserved railways on your doorstep in the UK you are truly Blessed.

[coachmann]

Anyway the point of this topic is WHY ARE PRESERVED RAILWAYS (seemingly ) UNPOPULAR AS LAYOUT SUBJETS?.

Hello.... Wot are layout subjets?

[James]

But my point was that a preserved railway can allow locals to serve their needs without the need of a longer trip, in the case of the NYMR it provides services to Whitby which surely must provide services for the locals. Anyway the point of this topic is WHY ARE PRESERVED RAILWAYS (seemingly ) UNPOPULAR AS LAYOUT SUBJETS?.

 

THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT

 

Have you not considered that the discussion here is a reflection of why they are unpopular as subjects for layouts? I am sorry for trying further intellectual discussion.

 

With reagrds the NYMR's Whitby service being there for the community - what happens if someone in Pickering wants to travel on a Tuesday in February? The railway isn't running then. Plus the train takes and hour and a half, Yorkshire Coastliner will get you there in an hour, and out of season too, and the car will do it in much less than that too if it's quiet and for less than the £21.00 fare on the NYMR.

 

Hertiage railways are tourist attractions; they may add to their communities economies but they aren't there to serve local passengers. Tourists, daytrippers and holidaymakers are the target groups; these people are happy to pay £21 for an adult fare and take three times longer on the train than in the car. For them it's about the overall expereince and not just a means of travel.

 

I'm not criticising heritage railways for surving tourists and not locals, after all there were reasons why many of them closed.

[scots region]

THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT

 

Have you not considered that the discussion here is a reflection of why they are unpopular as subjects for layouts? I am sorry for trying further intellectual discussion.

 

With reagrds the NYMR's Whitby service being there for the community - what happens if someone in Pickering wants to travel on a Tuesday in February? The railway isn't running then. Plus the train takes and hour and a half, Yorkshire Coastliner will get you there in an hour, and out of season too, and the car will do it in much less than that too if it's quiet and for less than the £21.00 fare on the NYMR.

 

Hertiage railways are tourist attractions; they may add to their communities economies but they aren't there to serve local passengers. Tourists, daytrippers and holidaymakers are the target groups; these people are happy to pay £21 for an adult fare and take three times longer on the train than in the car. For them it's about the overall expereince and not just a means of travel.

 

I'm not criticising heritage railways for surving tourists and not locals, after all there were reasons why many of them closed.

 

I'm sorry I wasn't targeting this shout at anyone I was reinforcing the original question and I am sorry if you took offense I do appreciate extra debate just so long as the original query is not lost. I would like to close on this debate with saying 'some preserved railways are obviously intended purely for tourism and some play a deeper role in community's, it is simple a matter of individual prefernce'.

[Baby Deltic]

For me, there's just something about modelling the true setting that just cannot be captured anywhere else. You can't 'preserve' the atmosphere of dereliction and foreboding of the North London Railway in the 1960's for example, when stations were being pulled down and tracks torn up in a 'modern' era 'the one that got away and was preserved' context.

 

Maybe in a modeling context preserved lines are too 'twee' for my liking.

[Ian J.]

Re preservation lines running for tourism versus running for local communities, I seem to remember that the West Somerset Railway was set up to keep that line open as a communitiy resource, but it seems to have become a heritage line instead. The Swanage line has also had a community purpose somewhere in its operational brief, but until it is able to properly connect back to the mainline at Worgret, I'm not sure how well that brief has been kept to (apart from the Park & Ride scheme at Norton).

 

So it may be that in the future some models of heritage lines could have an aspect of revenue earning service represented on them quite accurately. But in most instances that seems not to be the case at the moment.

[coachmann]

Not for nothing were the branchlines in heavily populised areas such as industrial towns and cities the first to face closure when forced to compete with tram and bus stops at 'every lamp post'. Country branchlines lasted a bit longer because it was not profitable for a small bus operator to compete with the railway. Beeching offered these lines on a plate to bus operators, but many greedy operators wanted rid of their newly acquired services when they discovered there was no profit in it for them either! The one thing that would make a preserved branchline of limited public service today is if it is in an area where difficult car parking and traffic chaos is making people consider alternative means of getting into town. Even so such an advantage would be cancelled out if bus operators had bus lanes and other favourable facilites to avoid traffic snarl-ups.

 

Another advatage for a preserved line is if it it rail connected to the main system. If the Llangollen line had pushed eastwards towards Ruabon, it might have benefited from passengers travelling to and from Chester. In model form, this is perfectly feasable!

 

I've wandered of course a bit here but i thought it might be a useful bit of food for thought.....

[Andy C]

Judging by some of the comments I'd say models of preserved railways are possibly more popular than we may think - its just that we never actually see them very often at shows and in the mags. The reason? well I think many have already touched on it, in that generally they are just an excuse for lowest common denominator "modelling" or ready to plonk stuff.

 

Ive seen a couple of creditable examples done, but generally speaking, even when Ive seen them done in conjunction with a bigger "normal" railway layout (and for some reason usually in N gauge) they have looked incongruous and to be quite frank, bl**dy awful.

 

Lets face it as well unless you are modelling a preserved station where there are activities going on, ie loco sheds / workshops etc then they are operationally boring with just maybe two, or three at the most, trains in operation . When we were at the GCR the other week for Leander's birthday bash, even at Loughbrough there was no or little movement other than the service trains. Stand on the platform to watch and its boring. Get down amongst the stock and poke and prod around the yard and then it comes to life.

 

Decide to build a preserved layout and the modelling challenge is extreme - as someone else has pointed out all the rusting hulks, bits of junk, partly dismantled locos, waggons, carriages, bits of signals, quite odten run down infrastructure alongside refurbed stuff etc - to do it right and make it look good is probably beyond the capabilities of most people who use it as an excuse to "run my new class 66 alongside my LNER liveried O2". So therefore they remain in darkened rooms as a secret guilty pleasure

 

Which now makes me think - theres someone lives on Sandy Lane in Rochdale almost next to the Football ground who obviously has a layout in their front small bedroom (you can see it through the window when you are waiting for the lights to change) Ive never discovered the identity of who lives there and I thought I knew most modellers in rochdale - I wonder if they are a secret preserved line modeller .

[sunshine coast]

Of course some preserved railways have been in existence longer than some original lines lasted,so does that not make some of them more "real" than real railways ...this thought came up when a group of us were discussing wether a particular narrow gauge engine could be classed a being of local importance as it had never worked in industry in this area but had actually been "working" at Tinkers Park railway longer than in industry....

It all makes for interesting speculation ...but I personally think that preserved railways are a good subject for a layout ..if done well..(most do try to get as much local stock as possible ,so it is not always a case of running anything) ....with an eye for the detail ...the mix of "historic" items and modern day can give a very plausible scene...

 

Regards Trevor...