O Gauge 08

[Kickstart]

Copied from the Dapol website page.

 

"We are now pleased to confirm that the O gauge 08 Shunter is now in tooling and we expect first shots soon.

We would also like to apologise to all our customers for the unfortunate delay in getting to this stage of the product cycle. There have been lots of reasons behind this hold-up but the biggest is that in hindsight, we announced the model too early before we fully appreciated the issues fully involved behind producing the model. We are now confident that all is now organised as it should be and we do not anticipate any further delays."

 

Doh !!!

 

I wonder whether this isn't only specific to the 08, but also covering the Terrier and the various bits of rework they have carried out. Delays to the Terrier will have pushed the 08 further in to the future.

 

With O gauge small changes to a prototype through its life are far more obvious on the model.

 

Possibly Dapol have been pushed in to this by having taken on the experience of Richard Webster.

 

Hopefully it comes out as a good model.

 

All the best

 

K

[delticfan]

I totally agree on the if it looks right comment, quality is the key so long as the things work. I took a lot of flack buying the Heljan 40 with stories that the jltrt model was more accurate, it Probably is but to me the overall model seems ok I know there are errors but who cares really it works it looks good and I'm sure someone would pick fault with any number of things like it's made of plastic aren't the real ones made of steel! If the 08 is well built looks ok and is cheap enough it'll fly off the shelves. If you're that worried about accuracy go scratch build and take a couple of years out to build it, each to their own.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Issues can be all the extra details included because of size as each part requires design. Where'd they'd previously use one piece in smaller scales maybe having to split it up to reduce mould costs (bigger machines cost more so you use what you have). Weight issues, you don't simply scale up a OO chassis as it'd be very heavy and waste money.

Lots of other things as well, Heljan are being similarly cautious with their first foray into 009 because they are learning too. Even 3D printing require wall thicknesses etc to be modified for changing scale. Looks like Dapol thought it would be a simple new model and I suspect Dave Jones leaving meant they had to go through and learn all that he'd done on it to understand why, this seems to have lead to a redesign from the experience of their new teams way of doing things. Better to stick to what you understand than gambling on what a predecessor did for an unknown reason as I don't think it was the happiest of splits at the end on the Dapol side judging by the cancelling of special editions for Kernow etc.

My understanding is that everything was good to go back in 2012 - inc laser scans. RW et al are experts so why the long wait?

 

Also why has the Terrier got 'electrical interference' problems when manufacturer is the same factory that Ixion et al have successfully used - isnt one of the new design team members and electronics expert?

 

A lot of clever people on here who know nothing of the real market .It is the fact people buy what they fancy not what may be accurate .The few people on here  to whom total accuracy is important are not that important in real life ,only on here to themselves .I suspect fewer than a dozen punters have not bought a J15 because of the handrail issue .

In real life most buy model trains because they like em and it looks roughly like the model it is intended .I doubt even the working location and region bothers them  .Many  will be plonked on some appalling track to whizz round at huge speed while others wont even be removed from the packaging .

I do (LOL!) Seriously, I do see what you are saying, but judging by your comments perhaps we should have stuck with O gauge tinplate if punters are inclined to buy anything and everything put in front of them?! 7mm is a building doing, fettling scale/gauge but as markets and skill-sets change many want reasonable accuracy RTR at a fair price (ie get that basics right and super-detail/fettle if required/desired). If a manufacturer gets the basics right then small tweaks or added details can be added by the purchaser or not as the case may be - yet look at Dapol's POW's some were figments of pure imagination (yes I have said it again  ), why when Dapol are the subject matter experts and why did so many reviewers miss such, the info is out there and we have a plethora of books? I agree about the appalling track issue (OO) and playing trains etc. No offence intended and as always each to their own interests.

 

This is a very good point.

 

there seems to be a lot of froth being generated in this thread, and a lot of criticism about the product that Dapol have produced to date.

 

I understand that people want accurate models - really, I do, and in some ways I'd count myself among them  But in reality,it's not actually that many people.

 

I'd say probably 80-90% of customers don't care!

basically, to most people,  If it looks right, it is right.   

 

It is in the manufacturer's best interest to get a model as prototypically accurate as possible, but where do you stop?  It must be obvious that there are commercial considerations in play with regard to pricing points, manufacturing capability, assembly costs and re-use, and that means a balance must be found between accuracy and price.

 

So the Private Owner wagons are a work of fiction...  Who really cares?  probably every PO wagon to come out of Hornby, and a large number from Bachmann are fictional or adapted in some way or another. 

 

Dapol are making a reasonable model for a reasonable price - a fully built and decorated wagon for much the same cost as a kit (Once paint, glues and transfers are factored in) but without the expense of time and the burden of having to learn kitbuilding skills.   what more could you expect?

 

Yes I'm sure the wagons could be more accurate, I'm sure a hundred variations of PO wagon could be tooled, but no-one would buy them at £100 or £120 each.

 

Dapol are doing a great job of making O Gauge accessible.  I'm praying that the Terrier and 08 are good - and I mean in terms of build QUALITY, rather than ACCURACY.   If they are, then they will be the catalyst for a big shift in the numbers of people modelling O.  

 

Price is now a key driving factor for a lot of customers - and if the models provide a good base to work from, at a fair price, then more people will dip their toe in the water and start in O, and surely this can only be a good thing for the specialist manufacturers as their potential market will have expanded.

I see what you are saying and yet....I say again, lets all revert to tinplate and a circle of track, or go back to motor cars without heaters or cars without anti-freeze etc etc    I dont think Dapol are doing a great job. The models they have produced are at best 'trainset models' (ie a step up from Triang) but at Ixion/Lionheart prices. If they were cheap then that's a different matter is it not as then the punters pay their monies and takes their choices? There is also the matter of Dapol's cynical duplication. One or two mags have said such duplication is inevitable - but I would suggest that duplication is foolhardy and wont help anyone in the medium to long term. Im hoping the 08 will be great in terms of accuracy and quality, surly both are required in equal amounts (ie fit for purpose of a satisfactory quality etc?). Me? Im praying for an end to mindless capitalism, consumerism and monetary policies that only favour the elite. True some modellers may come over the 7mm, but not if it aint right.

 

Look how many Hudswell Clarke locos Ixion have sold - I believe the first run was 1500 and most of those have gone with another 500 in the alternative green livery followed by the Fowler diesel and expected by the end of the year is the Minerva Peckett.

 

There were many comments on here at the time the HC was introduced about that loco being just what modellers needed to make a start in 7mm which until then had been regarded by many as too expensive.

 

The offerings from Dapol may not be up to ABS standards (!) but as Gareth said above, the majority don't care about that level of accuracy.

Please see above...why bother to strive for continuous improvement, why let manufacturers off of the hook? Why not go back to Triang standards?  If the majority dont want accuracy then perhaps there are two market segments for Dapol to fill? Ie Toy trains/train-sets in 'O' gauge and RTR for the discerning modeller of fine-scale 7mm?

 

I wonder whether this isn't only specific to the 08, but also covering the Terrier and the various bits of rework they have carried out. Delays to the Terrier will have pushed the 08 further in to the future.

 

With O gauge small changes to a prototype through its life are far more obvious on the model.

 

Possibly Dapol have been pushed in to this by having taken on the experience of Richard Webster.

 

Hopefully it comes out as a good model.

 

All the best

 

K

IMHO the Terriers are a bit of a prototypical minefield and it seems like Dapol has bitten off more than it can now chew? Perhaps thats the excuse with he electronic issues with the Terrier are just a ruse?? Then the delays in the 08? Something doesnt add up though.

 

I totally agree on the if it looks right comment, quality is the key so long as the things work. I took a lot of flack buying the Heljan 40 with stories that the jltrt model was more accurate, it Probably is but to me the overall model seems ok I know there are errors but who cares really it works it looks good and I'm sure someone would pick fault with any number of things like it's made of plastic aren't the real ones made of steel! If the 08 is well built looks ok and is cheap enough it'll fly off the shelves. If you're that worried about accuracy go scratch build and take a couple of years out to build it, each to their own.

Lets hope that Heljan have sorted the problem with the gearsets splitting - weve all suffered that one, then made to fix it ourselves, would we do that with a £500 TV? Why is such acceptable with our toy trains and not with any other consumer goods? Why pay for something that isnt right? Some of the Mags dont help, either, as they are compromised due to a conflict of interests between manufacturers (advertisers) and punters (readers) - thus ineffective reviews of new models? Do we really want 'cheap and cheerful' or VFM from a well thought out cost effective model - ie as with Ixion's superb locos or Lionhearts fantastic wagonry?

 

Hi chaps,

 

nope, not as far as i'm aware.

 

Cad/cams should be almost finished in a week or so and its almost straight on to metal cutting.

 

I'm hoping for something tangible at Telford.

 

Hope this helps.

cheers

Dave

Im also sure I read that the 08 had been benchmarked and laser scanned?

 

It seems like the 08 was ready to go in 2012! As good as DJ was, are we saying that within the whole of Dapol there was no one to take up the reins and get the 08 finished? If we are then we can see why such was delayed ie lack or core competency within the remainder of Dapol?

 

Kindest to all whatever your/our POVs

 

CME

[Kickstart]

IMHO the Terriers are a bit of a prototypical minefield and it seems like Dapol has bitten off more than it can now chew? Perhaps thats the excuse with he electronic issues with the Terrier are just a ruse?? Then the delays in the 08? Something doesnt add up though.

 

It seems like the 08 was ready to go in 2012! As good as DJ was, are we saying that within the whole of Dapol there was no one to take up the reins and get the 08 finished? If we are then we can see why such was delayed ie lack or core competency within the remainder of Dapol?

 

 

Possibly RW has more experience in the model arena rather than the more toy arena that Dapol have pandered to with some of their N and OO models, and he has delayed things to get things right.

 

Doubt the electronics issue is much of a ruse. Why bother when so close to the product being available when they could have just kept quiet for the couple of extra weeks.

 

As to the 08 and having someone to take over the reigns. If the Terrier has had that much rework, how close was the 08 to being finished, let alone production ready.

 

All the best

 

K

[40126]

Just add My 2 peneth,

 

I would rather have the 08 spot on than not looking right. I model with a limited budget, so I would rather not have to do too much to get it looking the bizz. I have one on order.

 

Steve

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Possibly RW has more experience in the model arena rather than the more toy arena that Dapol have pandered to with some of their N and OO models, and he has delayed things to get things right.

 

Doubt the electronics issue is much of a ruse. Why bother when so close to the product being available when they could have just kept quiet for the couple of extra weeks.

 

As to the 08 and having someone to take over the reigns. If the Terrier has had that much rework, how close was the 08 to being finished, let alone production ready.

 

All the best

 

K

Hi K,

 

I thought that Dapol had turned out some good locos in 'N' and 'OO'?

 

Also as the Terrier is from the same factory as used by Ixion, so why would there - suddenly - be problems with motors and interference (there are a myriad of reasons of course, but, so I am told by those in the know, its a reliable factory).

 

I understand/led to believe that the factory had everything that they needed for the 08 a long time back - perhaps its down to T&Cs? Ie payment terms etc??

 

Just add My 2 peneth,

 

I would rather have the 08 spot on than not looking right. I model with a limited budget, so I would rather not have to do too much to get it looking the bizz. I have one on order.

 

Steve

Hi Steve,

 

I agree - yet I havent pre-ordered, choosing instead, to keep my powder dry until Dapol proves themselves   

 

ATVB to all,

 

CME

[chaz]

Hi K,

 

I thought that Dapol had turned out some good locos in 'N' and 'OO'?

 

Also as the Terrier is from the same factory as used by Ixion, so why would there - suddenly - be problems with motors and interference (there are a myriad of reasons of course, but, so I am told by those in the know, its a reliable factory).

 

I understand/led to believe that the factory had everything that they needed for the 08 a long time back - perhaps its down to T&Cs? Ie payment terms etc??

 

Hi Steve,

 

I agree - yet I havent pre-ordered, choosing instead, to keep my powder dry until Dapol proves themselves   

 

ATVB to all,

 

CME

 

If there are any bits missing, too big, too small, the wrong shape etc you can be sure that forum members will soon let us know!   If it's a poor runner that will invite a torrent of criticism. We can be certain that it will sell, some people will buy one even if there are known faults. However it would be nice if it's accurate and runs well and thats the way Dapol will get maximum sales. Obviously the price is an important factor but if it sells for less or the same as the Ixion models I think most people will be happy.

 

When it comes to variations of the prototypes through their long service life it would be good if this is catered for, but I for one could contemplate a bit of detailing.

 

Every potential customer will have to decide for themselves if they want one. Cards on the table - I will buy one if it runs well and if it looks convincing. I used to have a Bachmann Brassworks 08 which ran well but had a number of inaccuracies - they didn't really bother me as to me eye it looked like a BR standard 350hp 0-6-0 DEJ4 (I painted mine black and numbered it in the 13xxx series). Like you I will not pre-order - keeping your powder dry seems a good idea - and if I miss out because they sell out fast then I will rely on my Bachmann DMS1 (11135 - also in black) to shunt Dock Green yard.

 

 

Chaz

[Kickstart]

Hi K,

 

I thought that Dapol had turned out some good locos in 'N' and 'OO'?

 

Also as the Terrier is from the same factory as used by Ixion, so why would there - suddenly - be problems with motors and interference (there are a myriad of reasons of course, but, so I am told by those in the know, its a reliable factory).

 

I understand/led to believe that the factory had everything that they needed for the 08 a long time back - perhaps its down to T&Cs? Ie payment terms etc??

 

 

They have, but also had some unreliable ones (the number of n gauge praries being sold at Tings last year might demonstrate that). And with O gauge people want more accuracy.

 

Dapol have done many private owner wagons in the smaller scales which even if prototypical are probably not using an accurate moulding of the wagon.

 

Dapol are a bigger company that Ixion, and possibly a bit more fearful of being chased for any such interference. Suspect their production quantities are larger, and quite possibly going on for longer.

 

Having everything they need is different to having everything the new development bods want to make a model they are happy with.

 

A lot of people have had goes at Dapol for poor detailing (and many on this thread seem to be basing their view on the as yet unreleased 08 on such a reputation) while they are also getting it in the neck for delaying things to hopefully improve things. We have no real way of knowing how close to finished (to the standard we have seen in the prototypes) the Terrier was when RW took over.

 

All the best

 

K

[CME and Bottlewasher]

 

If there are any bits missing, too big, too small, the wrong shape etc you can be sure that forum members will soon let us know!   If it's a poor runner that will invite a torrent of criticism. We can be certain that it will sell, some people will buy one even if there are known faults. However it would be nice if it's accurate and runs well and thats the way Dapol will get maximum sales. Obviously the price is an important factor but if it sells for less or the same as the Ixion models I think most people will be happy.

 

When it comes to variations of the prototypes through their long service life it would be good if this is catered for, but I for one could contemplate a bit of detailing.

 

Every potential customer will have to decide for themselves if they want one. Cards on the table - I will buy one if it runs well and if it looks convincing. I used to have a Bachmann Brassworks 08 which ran well but had a number of inaccuracies - they didn't really bother me as to me eye it looked like a BR standard 350hp 0-6-0 DEJ4 (I painted mine black and numbered it in the 13xxx series). Like you I will not pre-order - keeping your powder dry seems a good idea - and if I miss out because they sell out fast then I will rely on my Bachmann DMS1 (11135 - also in black) to shunt Dock Green yard.

 

 

Chaz

 

 

They have, but also had some unreliable ones (the number of n gauge praries being sold at Tings last year might demonstrate that). And with O gauge people want more accuracy.

 

Dapol have done many private owner wagons in the smaller scales which even if prototypical are probably not using an accurate moulding of the wagon.

 

Dapol are a bigger company that Ixion, and possibly a bit more fearful of being chased for any such interference. Suspect their production quantities are larger, and quite possibly going on for longer.

 

Having everything they need is different to having everything the new development bods want to make a model they are happy with.

 

A lot of people have had goes at Dapol for poor detailing (and many on this thread seem to be basing their view on the as yet unreleased 08 on such a reputation) while they are also getting it in the neck for delaying things to hopefully improve things. We have no real way of knowing how close to finished (to the standard we have seen in the prototypes) the Terrier was when RW took over.

 

All the best

 

K

Interesting points K.

 

My understanding is that the Terrier being made now could be a different version to the one first proposed - hence the delays?

 

Did Dave J work on the Terrier or was that after his time - I have the feeling that it was the latter?

 

The trade are upset that there are problems with the '00' Cl73 paint/liveries...

 

Makes me wonder if there are funding issues (lack of R&D or Project Development funding?) behind all of these problems - as I said elsewhere it seems that Dapol's supplychain n supplier management is lacking, with poor leverage and T&Cs. Why is that Ixion, a smaller company, can get it right, when smaller than Dapol, who by rights should have more leverage?

 

Since DJs departure Dapol have had a lot of time to gen. up, makes me wonder if they are no longer 'subject matter experts'

 

Chaz's comments sum it up pretty well. As I have written before, if with the 08 it can be the right shape and dimensions (or the best modelled interpretation of such), perhaps with 'plug-in' or removable tool boxes etc (for different versions) then even if short on detail, if it is basically right and runs well then it can be super-detailed by those of us that wish to.

 

I want Dapol to succeed with the 08, yet Im not holding my breath.

 

Kindest to all,

 

CME

[Kickstart]

Interesting points K.

 

My understanding is that the Terrier being made now could be a different version to the one first proposed - hence the delays?

 

Did Dave J work on the Terrier or was that after his time - I have the feeling that it was the latter?

 

The trade are upset that there are problems with the '00' Cl73 paint/liveries...

 

Makes me wonder if there are funding issues (lack of R&D or Project Development funding?) behind all of these problems - as I said elsewhere it seems that Dapol's supplychain n supplier management is lacking, with poor leverage and T&Cs. Why is that Ixion, a smaller company, can get it right, when smaller than Dapol, who by rights should have more leverage?

 

Since DJs departure Dapol have had a lot of time to gen. up, makes me wonder if they are no longer 'subject matter experts'

 

Chaz's comments sum it up pretty well. As I have written before, if with the 08 it can be the right shape and dimensions (or the best modelled interpretation of such), perhaps with 'plug-in' or removable tool boxes etc (for different versions) then even if short on detail, if it is basically right and runs well then it can be super-detailed by those of us that wish to.

 

I want Dapol to succeed with the 08, yet Im not holding my breath.

 

Kindest to all,

 

CME

 

Don't think there are those kinds of changes there that have delayed it. But fairly sure both the Terrier and the 08 both predate DJM leaving Dapol. Think he left mid 2012 and there is a thread here from around then with 3d pictures of both models.

 

I am not sure that it is fair to compare the industrial locos that Ixion have mainly produced (which make no attempt to cover particular examples of long lived and often changed prototypes - something many of their customers will customise the models to do) and the Dapol Terrier where there is a relatively small number of prototypes which are well known and which changed many times over their lives, with many liveries which people want to be accurately represented. This isn't meant in any way as an insult to Ixion who who producted some lovely models.

 

They have had the time to gen up, and perform redesigns, find more differences between prototypes, and get regularly attacked.

 

While you are happy with a basic model that looks right to be customised to your tastes, it would seem that many on here wouldn't be and want a specific prototype. Neither position is wrong.

 

I have a Terrier on order, and once we get a few more details on the 08 then I will probably order one of those. They are far better than I have a chance of producing from a kit!

 

All the best

 

K

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Don't think there are those kinds of changes there that have delayed it. But fairly sure both the Terrier and the 08 both predate DJM leaving Dapol. Think he left mid 2012 and there is a thread here from around then with 3d pictures of both models.

 

I am not sure that it is fair to compare the industrial locos that Ixion have mainly produced (which make no attempt to cover particular examples of long lived and often changed prototypes - something many of their customers will customise the models to do) and the Dapol Terrier where there is a relatively small number of prototypes which are well known and which changed many times over their lives, with many liveries which people want to be accurately represented. This isn't meant in any way as an insult to Ixion who who producted some lovely models.

 

They have had the time to gen up, and perform redesigns, find more differences between prototypes, and get regularly attacked.

 

While you are happy with a basic model that looks right to be customised to your tastes, it would seem that many on here wouldn't be and want a specific prototype. Neither position is wrong.

 

I have a Terrier on order, and once we get a few more details on the 08 then I will probably order one of those. They are far better than I have a chance of producing from a kit!

 

All the best

 

K

Hi K,

 

Mmm not fair? Not sure that I agree.

 

Here's what I see as the main issues, taking into account, what those in the trade are saying;

 

1) Lack of R&D/Development funding;

2) Lack of Core Competence;

3) Poor communications etc;

 

Thus Dapol are struggling and not listening either.

 

BTW I wasnt comparing the Terrier per se with Ixion's models, merely the processes and the factory and its competencies etc, ie the factory are, so it would appear, subject matter experts, perhaps it is Dapol that is not (any more)?

 

The initial 'Terrier' that was muted isnt the same one, AFAICT,  that is being produced now. My understanding by reading Posts here and elsewhere is that DJ had, for the 08, provided the factory with laser derived data, prototypical data, benchmarked examples (everything needed to produce a good model) etc etc. when he was at Dapol, thus is was 'good to go' a few years back. So why the long wait? Funding?

 

If so many want a generic model then as I say why didnt we stop with Tinplate or Triang standards, why improve? I would be happier with an accurate model that works well at a fair price, my suggestion was just that, a suggestion to get the basics right, so as to get the model that everyone wants.

 

I empathise re the building and painting of models, yet if loco kits were made ala Heljan's MO, then one could even have pre-painted components (akin to some of Revell's aircrft kits) that go together like a traditional Airfix kit. Heljan supply their models RTR (when they used to be a manufacturer of injection moulded kits) as such adds 'value' or more importantly, 'perceived value' (eg. ala Perfume) which = bigger profits.

 

As the hobby, is a hobby, ie of doing and making for eg. therapeutic purposes and pleasure etc, why is there a sudden race to the bottom to have ready made models that either dont look right or work well?

 

As I said perhaps yourself and others here have identified a new market segment which is akin to eg. some of the Lionel coarse scale plastic models, whereby 'playing trains' is more important?

 

True to say that I aim for, to paraphrase the late, great Jack Ray; 'a recognisable model of the prototype running in a credible background' or the saying; ' if walks like a duck looks like a duck, it's a...' may equally apply. BUT Dapol are a commercial enterprise and I believe that your comments are letting them off of the hook somewhat as Dapol have to date, short changed the hobby with it's output of 7mm finescale models, in other words, the models to date haven't been, to date, all that finescale/accurate and they have been supplied at a certain price point.

 

As a hobby, I believe, we need to strive for continuous improvement for the sake of VFM, credibility and gaining support (new recruits) for 7mm FINESCALE.

 

In this world of planed obsolescence and monetarism, whereby even a moderately priced known brand CD player, stops working in year two of its life (ie out of warranty), we need to keep striving for better/more from manufacturers, in any market sector/walk of life.

 

If everyone is so keen for a generic 08 then why not just plump for the US made 'O' gauge 08, with its Thomas the Tank Engine looks?

 

I WANT Dapol to succeed in 7mm, yet their output thus far has been an awful compromise, when, in regard to the 08, all the data is there to run with but Dapol hasn't

 

As I always say, each to their own, I make no value judgements about others' interests or modelling and I often see a great deal of good in others' works. As I say for many this is a 'doing/making' hobby, and RTR and persihable skills is an issue I believe needs addressing if the hobby is to flourish - that's if most of us grey-beards want it too? The mags are filled with layouts with RTR and RTP models and often look toy like or generic and I dont think that's good for the hobby in the long run (but its the same re 1:16 scale RC tanks et al too).

 

I would ask, how many loco kits have you attempted to build and paint to date as I am keen for everyone to have a go at at least one kit?

 

Also why pre-order when one doesnt know what one is getting - caveat emptor surely?

 

ATVB to one and all,

 

Kindest,

 

CME

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

 

If there are any bits missing, too big, too small, the wrong shape etc you can be sure that forum members will soon let us know!   If it's a poor runner that will invite a torrent of criticism. We can be certain that it will sell, some people will buy one even if there are known faults. However it would be nice if it's accurate and runs well and thats the way Dapol will get maximum sales. Obviously the price is an important factor but if it sells for less or the same as the Ixion models I think most people will be happy.

 

When it comes to variations of the prototypes through their long service life it would be good if this is catered for, but I for one could contemplate a bit of detailing.

 

Every potential customer will have to decide for themselves if they want one. Cards on the table - I will buy one if it runs well and if it looks convincing. I used to have a Bachmann Brassworks 08 which ran well but had a number of inaccuracies - they didn't really bother me as to me eye it looked like a BR standard 350hp 0-6-0 DEJ4 (I painted mine black and numbered it in the 13xxx series). Like you I will not pre-order - keeping your powder dry seems a good idea - and if I miss out because they sell out fast then I will rely on my Bachmann DMS1 (11135 - also in black) to shunt Dock Green yard.

 

 

 

Chaz

Couldn't agree more Chaz, I had a Bachmann brass 08 visit my railway recently & despite the criticism by the armchair critics it looked great to my eyes........so much so that I will probably get the Dapol model if it EVER does arrive! lol

 

 

Great layout BTW..........funny how those who accept compromise tend have layouts & those by & large who don't,erm ....... 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Couldn't agree more Chaz, I had a Bachmann brass 08 visit my railway recently & despite the criticism by the armchair critics it looked great to my eyes........so much so that I will probably get the Dapol model if it EVER does arrive! lol

 

20150725_121125.jpg

 

Great layout BTW..........funny how those who accept compromise tend have layouts & those by & large who don't,erm ....... 

 

Phill  (Garden bodger & proud!)

Hi Phill  ,

 

I thought that you told me that you didnt need an 08  

 

I like Marc Smith's weathered Bachmann 08 and with some of the MMP parts they do make a credible recognisable model of the prototype running in a credible background.

 

All models are a compromise. As I said the model-makers skill is to transpose prototypical dimensions and characteristics into model form, thus far Dapol has fallen short in that regard.

 

I have my suspicions that the Dapol version - judging by previous performance - wont be as 'good' as the Bachmann version. Time will tell.

 

Keep an eye out for a Bachmann BW version or build the MMP kit with a Steph Dale gearbox etc.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

Hi Phill  ,

 

I thought that you told me that you didnt need an 08  

 

 

ATVB

 

CME

I know, but it looked so cute trundling round the garden 

[brianthesnail96]

I don't think any of us can really say what Dapol were left with after Dave left them, nor how suitable those that replaced him found it (not a reflection on Dave's work- different people work in different ways and CAD/ CAM processes don't change that). I will say that CAD makes it (relatively) easy to make it look like you've progressed a long way in a fairly short time period should you so wish, translating that CAD into something suitable for manufacture and then actually making it is a rather more long winded process and one where it can very easily seem that you are getting nowhere. I do think (and unlike some I'm not a well connected expert in the field, so it's exactly that) that Dapol promised a lot of things under Dave and the new team didn't hit the ground running fast enough to keep up with those promises- by now they are hopefully getting there.

 

There's got to be a realistic balance in there between perfect accuracy and building to a price- I don't think it's asking too much for the basic shape and dimensions to be pretty close, and certainly not for liveries to be accurate (Dapol have proved many times that they can do a fine job of livery application, so it's a bit of a shame that they seem to keep getting it wrong) but the calls for fine detail and the precise combination of details as fitted to a particular engine at a particular time just isn't viable at the price point they are aiming for.

 

I was going to comment that the incessant, unnecessary and at times downright arrogant bashing will only serve to break down communications with them (in both directions) but that happened long ago, net result being that it's now much harder to communicate with "sensible" feedback (mistakes on livery samples etc). It's come to something when Facebook is a more productive means of communication than the premier model railway forum, and says a lot about the attitude and communication skills of a few of those forum members (mostly, it has to be said, now ex forum members...). It's not so much the complaints- I can't really argue with the grumbles about going for a "generic" milk tanker when they had most of the ingredients in place for a realistic one for example), but I can with the way they were presented. Some of the errors are downright silly but somehow I don't think it's a deliberate choice to be late on every promised model, and consistently whinging about it ain't going to change it.

 

 As a footnote- I think Ixion have done very well to resist the temptation to promise the moon on a stick, which is probably why they've consistently made good models on target and to budget- they are a rather smaller company than Dapol- Lionheart are probably in a similar category in being almost a "hobby" business- not meant in any way to be an insult, between the two of them they have done wonders for 7mm/ft RTR.     

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I don't think any of us can really say what Dapol were left with after Dave left them, nor how suitable those that replaced him found it (not a reflection on Dave's work- different people work in different ways and CAD/ CAM processes don't change that). I will say that CAD makes it (relatively) easy to make it look like you've progressed a long way in a fairly short time period should you so wish, translating that CAD into something suitable for manufacture and then actually making it is a rather more long winded process and one where it can very easily seem that you are getting nowhere. I do think (and unlike some I'm not a well connected expert in the field, so it's exactly that) that Dapol promised a lot of things under Dave and the new team didn't hit the ground running fast enough to keep up with those promises- by now they are hopefully getting there.

 

There's got to be a realistic balance in there between perfect accuracy and building to a price- I don't think it's asking too much for the basic shape and dimensions to be pretty close, and certainly not for liveries to be accurate (Dapol have proved many times that they can do a fine job of livery application, so it's a bit of a shame that they seem to keep getting it wrong) but the calls for fine detail and the precise combination of details as fitted to a particular engine at a particular time just isn't viable at the price point they are aiming for.

 

I was going to comment that the incessant, unnecessary and at times downright arrogant bashing will only serve to break down communications with them (in both directions) but that happened long ago, net result being that it's now much harder to communicate with "sensible" feedback (mistakes on livery samples etc). It's come to something when Facebook is a more productive means of communication than the premier model railway forum, and says a lot about the attitude and communication skills of a few of those forum members (mostly, it has to be said, now ex forum members...). It's not so much the complaints- I can't really argue with the grumbles about going for a "generic" milk tanker when they had most of the ingredients in place for a realistic one for example), but I can with the way they were presented. Some of the errors are downright silly but somehow I don't think it's a deliberate choice to be late on every promised model, and consistently whinging about it ain't going to change it.

 

 As a footnote- I think Ixion have done very well to resist the temptation to promise the moon on a stick, which is probably why they've consistently made good models on target and to budget- they are a rather smaller company than Dapol- Lionheart are probably in a similar category in being almost a "hobby" business- not meant in any way to be an insult, between the two of them they have done wonders for 7mm/ft RTR.     

 

Hi Brian,

 

I cant comment in depth as time and confidentiality wont permit me.

 

Suffice to say that I am lucky(?) as a punter to be able to have friends and contacts within the trade and as far as I am concerned, I have been truthful and accurate in my comments, after receiving such from first hand sources.

 

You make some interesting comments.

 

I know, but it looked so cute trundling round the garden 

I knew that you would succumb LOL!

 

Kindest to all,

 

CME

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

Given the abuse some have heaped on them I am not surprised Dapol are loathe to indulge in much communication. If I were them would be inclined to try and improve and let the products do the talking.

 

I know there are issues with the PO wagons (although I would still put them FAR above the Skytrex PO wagons for example) and the tank wagon (which I think was done under DJs time - given I remember him displaying details of the prototypes when checking the buffers in points).

 

There is a lot of work to go between  a laser scan and a broken down set of components that can be reliably moulded and made in to a model at a reasonable price. That can be a major amount of work.

 

I think a while back Ixion did mention how much assembling one of their locos added to the cost, and from memory it was quite minimal.

 

I don't think that with the Terrier there is a race to the bottom (with the 08 I haven't seen anything like enough to know either way). To me it looks more like delaying things to get it right, even if the price point after the first batch is likely to jump up.

 

As to me building locos, I have one very nearly complete loco that just needs final work on the paint, and a brass loco kit that I started but put to one side as (hopefully just for now) it is beyond my abilities. Couple of brass wagons as well. To be honest I am far more at ease building from a plastic kit.

 

With the Terrier I pre ordered after seeing the unpainted prototype at Telford last year. To me based on what I had seen and at the price (around ~1/3 of the price of a Lionheart Pannier), it was a risk well worth taking.

 

All the best

 

K

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi

 

Given the abuse some have heaped on them I am not surprised Dapol are loathe to indulge in much communication. If I were them would be inclined to try and improve and let the products do the talking.

 

I know there are issues with the PO wagons (although I would still put them FAR above the Skytrex PO wagons for example) and the tank wagon (which I think was done under DJs time - given I remember him displaying details of the prototypes when checking the buffers in points).

 

There is a lot of work to go between  a laser scan and a broken down set of components that can be reliably moulded and made in to a model at a reasonable price. That can be a major amount of work.

 

I think a while back Ixion did mention how much assembling one of their locos added to the cost, and from memory it was quite minimal.

 

I don't think that with the Terrier there is a race to the bottom (with the 08 I haven't seen anything like enough to know either way). To me it looks more like delaying things to get it right, even if the price point after the first batch is likely to jump up.

 

As to me building locos, I have one very nearly complete loco that just needs final work on the paint, and a brass loco kit that I started but put to one side as (hopefully just for now) it is beyond my abilities. Couple of brass wagons as well. To be honest I am far more at ease building from a plastic kit.

 

With the Terrier I pre ordered after seeing the unpainted prototype at Telford last year. To me based on what I had seen and at the price (around ~1/3 of the price of a Lionheart Pannier), it was a risk well worth taking.

 

All the best

 

K

Hi K,

 

I havent noted any abuse of Dapol - just critiques thus far.

 

Re Brian's comments I dont see any 'bashing' arrogant or otherwise - just informed comment.

 

Perhaps we have some shills or Dapol apologists on-board?

 

Perhaps, as I said, the delays are due to finances and supplier management issues and not 'details' on models? I see that the Terrier has been hit into the long grass - again.

 

I realise how much work goes into a RTR model - you need to read between the lines of what I have written    

 

There are quite a few in the know K and it appears that Dapol are not very popular at the moment for a myriad of reasons.

 

I see what you are saying re the Terrier and your pre-order - as I have said I make no value judgements - from my POV though why give money to a company that doesnt deliver, falls short in its 7mm output and by some accounts arnt all that pleasant to do business with? As I say though, each to their own.

 

Everyone believes that brass is the be all and end all, yet it's a far from perfect material, yet it has its place, I empathise though (that's why it would would be nice to have some 'Airfix' style loco kits - as I implied).

 

True the Terrier is better than eg a Triang model of old - I kinda feel that when DJ left that the 'live, breath, eat, love model railways' ie the need to understand both the models and the market (business) almost as a vocation, left with him. RW et al may have put some of that back into Dapol, but isnt he only part time? Is it telling that it took two or more to replace the likes of Dave Jones? And still things aren't 'right'? That indicates a fly in the ointment. I wonder what the buyer/supplier relationships are like between Dapol and major shops - or wholesalers?

 

I dont want to fall out with anyone and I believe that people should 'vote' with their feet (wallets) thus far Dapol in 7mm, hasn't done anything to deserve patronage IMHO.

 

Best wishes to all, inc Dapol.

 

CME

[PaulRhB]

and I believe that people should 'vote' with their feet (wallets) thus far Dapol in 7mm, hasn't done anything to deserve patronage IMHO.

 

So why so much interest and going over it again in detail?

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

With the delays, a minor change in details of the model can lead to missing a production slot with the manufacturer. In such a case that would seem to cover both details changes and supplier management.

 

I haven't given any money to Dapol in 7mm yet (well, I did buy a wagon as a present for someone who had been down the mine in their youth that featured on the livery), but will do once they deliver. Similarly I have made no decisions on an 08, and won't until I see something more concrete (or plastic....) than some 3d computer graphics.

 

An airfix style O gauge loco would be good. Depends whether the tooling costs would be offset by high enough sales. The main advantage of brass seems to be how relatively cheaply it can be tooled up (although of course there is the cost of any required castings).

 

All the best

 

K

[Tricky-CRS]

CME I have typed 2 replies that have been deleted as I decide against getting involved, but I am sorry you are repeatedly Dapol bashing. Throwing liable accusations about fiances around telling people not to buy products based on CAD images before an engineering sample, livery sample and retail product hits the shops. You speak as an expert because you have spoken to a couple of retailers and formed and opinion from their that must be heard and adhered to. I believe it or not have contacts and get a different picture.

 

1: Dave was full time Richard and Andy are part time so you are wrong that it has taken 2 people to replace him and things still aren't right.

2: Where are your facts on financial issues at Dapol as my understanding is that this is not true.

3: Some of the delays date back to the amount items announced by Dave and George, Joel and Co. have announced very little to busy playing catch up.

4: DJ Models, Hornby and Bachmann are all experiences serve delays in new products coming through not only Dapol. Bachmann even own / control their own factory.

5: I dislike the suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is a Dapol apologist that is rude and bully boy tactic.

 

As a surveyor and CAD person with some knowledge of 3D laser scanning, I think it is very difficult to tell from the CAD cams as shown whether the body sides are right or wrong. There is far to much detail on the image distracting the eye, is the image rotated and set to perpendicular view or rotated by eye. These along with other factor's will deceive the eye in to believing the angle is to shallow or too great. It may be that the angle may be to shallow to show on the CAD Cam with all the other detail on but will be instantly reconcilable on the engineering prototype. I would wait and see if it is wrong on the EP then it will be open season but to advise against buying until then is Dapol bashing. 

 

Regards

 

Dapol Apologist

[BG John]

The first batch of Terriers are supposed to be available next week, so we don't need to wait long to find out what Dapol have achieved. Surely it's best to wait and see what they're like before getting too carried away with all this speculation. My pre-ordered one will be in the second delivery, so I'll have the advantage of all the feedback from the first lot.

[alfsboy]

Re the tinplate comments .I doubt few of us have had a better model railway experience than a tinplate layout in the garden on a sunny day  ,getting the whole lot demolished  by Britains  guards cavalry ,Lone Star Americans and Swoppet Germans and Mum coming out with orange juice and biccys  to round off a  perfect day before spoiling it by telling us to pack it all away before Dad gets home .Its all down hill from there ...like heroin  or HobNobs addiction .

[Mike Bellamy]

The first batch of Terriers are supposed to be available next week, so we don't need to wait long to find out what Dapol have achieved.

 

According to this post there is a further delay . . . .     

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87122-Dapol-o-gauge-terrier/?p=1977595

 

 

.

[BG John]

According to this post there is a further delay . . . .     

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87122-Dapol-o-gauge-terrier/?p=1977595

 

 

.

I saw that after I posted. I think it's time I joined the Dapol cynics!