RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted December 20, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 20, 2014 Well, considering that Hawksworth coaches are useless unless you are modelling the last year of the GWR or later (BR(WR)), there might be a reason why the GWR modellers are complaining about a lack of coaches. A 1930s GWR modeller can reasonably use some of the Staniers or the Maunsells on cross-country trains, but they can't use Hawksworths. You can't judge the popularity of GWR coaches based on sales when there are no sales to use as a comparison. Adrian Which LMS/SR/LNER RTR ones can we use specifically? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 I think the reason we got the Hawksworths (which are very useful to me of course) was because of the way they kept on scoring in wishlists and the simplicity they offered for a manufacturer looking for 'a GWR coach'. The jungle which is GWR coaching stock must present quite a headache for a manufacturer ... I agree, but the thing that confused me was that they were doing a like for like replacement of their existing coaching stock for the big four (Gresleys, Staniers, and Maunsells all replaced an existing line of coaches), and then they went off on a tangent with the Hawksworths. Now they are doing the K-type Pullmans they only have one type of old Hornby coaches to replace - the 1925 Colletts. (I suppose they could do the Thompsons and the Caledonian coaches first, and then go onto the ex-Airfix stuff... ). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Given that when Hornby's replacements for the Colletts appeared - the Hawksworths - they were pretty useless for anyone modelling the GWR prior to 1947, any suggestions for the most useless GWR suburbans Hornby could introduce I'll be taking bets - lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Which LMS/SR/LNER RTR ones can we use specifically? Based on the 1937-1938 Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains (Dragonwheel Books reprint), here are a few examples: 1. There were two trains a day each way between Brighton and Cardiff that had a core set of SR coaches (BTK-TK-FK-TK-BTK), and, depending on day, may have had up to three GWR thirds (on the front) between Salisbury and Cardiff. While they may have been other types of coaches, you could believably make a set out of Maunsells. 2. There was a Newcastle to Swansea (via Banbury) train that comprised BCK-TK-BTK-TK-TK-RC-BTK (all LNER stock) plus an LNER BG that was detached at Banbury 3. There was a Penzance to Crewe train that was: GW Van Third (Cardiff to Birkenhead, attached at Bristol) GW Van Third-Brake Compo (Cardiff to Liverpool, attached at Bristol) LMS BTK-CK-BG (Penzance to Manchester) LMS BG-CK-BTK (Penzance to Liverpool) LMS BG (Penzance to Liverpool, except Mondays) GW BG (Penzance to LMS line, runs as required) GW Siphon (Newquay to LMS Line, runs as required) GW Siphon (Newquay to Birmingham, runs as required) LMS BG (Cardiff to Manchester, attached at Bristol) LMS BG (Cardiff to Manchester, attached at Bristol, except Mondays) Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 I agree, but the thing that confused me was that they were doing a like for like replacement of their existing coaching stock for the big four (Gresleys, Staniers, and Maunsells all replaced an existing line of coaches), and then they went off on a tangent with the Hawksworths. Now they are doing the K-type Pullmans they only have one type of old Hornby coaches to replace - the 1925 Colletts. (I suppose they could do the Thompsons and the Caledonian coaches first, and then go onto the ex-Airfix stuff... ). Adrian I think the reasons for the Hawksworhs were very simple - 1. Wishlist skimming 2. They were a heck of a lot more straightforward than trying to get through the minefields of Collett vehicles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary hill Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Given that when Hornby's replacements for the Colletts appeared - the Hawksworths - they were pretty useless for anyone modelling the GWR prior to 1947, any suggestions for the most useless GWR suburbans Hornby could introduce I'll be taking bets - lol Hawksworth Non-Corridor stock to Diagrams C83, D132, E166 & E167 would be completely useless and might follow Hornby logic for coaching stock production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hornby is in the hands of its advisors. Hawksworth coaches was the advice and they made a damned good job of them right down to the rivets along the cantrail. You would never produce the like from currently available kits. I replaced the sides with brass ones but was careful to retain the aforementioned rivets. It was merely a test and decided the mods weren't necessary. I wish people would buy them instead of wanting all the things that AREN'T available, as this would likely encourage Hornby to produce more GWR coaches. If they were to ask me for advice I would say 1924-29 57' bow-ended Collett stock, not just because they could be found all over the system but because they would cover the longest period span from 1924 to withdrawal. Liveries would include the very attractive mock panelled choc & cream (1924-27), simplified choc & cream with coat of arms or roundel, , single and double waist livery for the post-war period, BR carmine & cream and finally lined maroon. I would not promote 'Toplights', one reason being Derek Lawrence and I were hardly ever asked for them and we were the most prolific producers of metal RTR coaches for 30 years. Okay, so I accept the plastic RTR market is a different beast and folk will buy anything that appeals to them, but the 1920's Colletts were the ones put into top GWR trains after Grouping so they would be the ones to hang behind your Hornby Castles and Kings. They were also the coaches one would most likely come across when travelling over the ex GW network right up to the early 1960's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 I don't suppose you have any photos of what you produced back then Coachmann. On another subject,I was taken by this Mike Roach photo and wondered if anyone can ID the coach diagrams please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I wish people would buy them instead of wanting all the things that AREN'T available, as this would likely encourage Hornby to produce more GWR coaches. I'd buy them if I could use them, but I'm not spending that sort of money on something that I won't use. I have bought examples of the other big four mainline coaches because they are useful - presumably this is encouraging Hornby to produce more coaches for everyone except the GWR. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I don't suppose you have any photos of what you produced back then Coachmann. On another subject,I was taken by this Mike Roach photo and wondered if anyone can ID the coach diagrams please. 5573 at Gara Bridge 61.jpg I'd go for D95 as the nearer one. Four compartment bow-ended brake third, and as it has the 7' bogies most likely a 57ft-er.But I could be wrong. Second one is a Hawksworth non-corridor Brake Composite E167. One of those mentioned as useless in a previous post! They were built post-nationalisation, and the very last of a line of coaches which ran as pairs in B-Sets, although obviously not here. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The leading corridor brake third has recessed door handles and recessed guards door, but the single window luggage doors throw me! Maybe it's a left-hand van 61' D115 corridor brake third with new luggage doors. The other is non-corridor and probably a D132 Hawksworth Brake Third. I am no GW expert. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebirduk Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I would not promote 'Toplights', one reason being Derek Lawrence and I were hardly ever asked for them and we were the most prolific producers of metal RTR coaches for 30 years. Okay, so I accept the plastic RTR market is a different beast and folk will buy anything that appeals to them, but the 1920's Colletts were the ones put into top GWR trains after Grouping so they would be the ones to hang behind your Hornby Castles and Kings. They were also the coaches one would most likely come across when travelling over the ex GW network right up to the early 1960's. That leaves a large minority? who have gone back in time to pre Great War, in my case July 1914 and who would very much like to see accurate main/secondary coaching stock running at that time. I KNOW that a lot of the Top Lights were taken by the WD and used as ambulance stock but that still leaves others that were not. If good models of 57' C28, D47 and E83? were manufactured and sold then surely that would leave a decent after market for conversion to later stock? Partly playing Devils Advocate but time is running out for a lot of us to complete their stock requirements. On a seperate note I have enjoyed your coach building over the years and in particular the gloss you have advocated to stock - I have vivid memories 1962-66) of sitting on top of the cutting short of Redhill Junction watching the South Wales Expresses passing with Brit's, Castles, Warships and Westerns with shiny maroon stock pass all day long especially Saturday Specials. The hydraulics were almost always gleaming as was the stock. I have not seen a representative model with Desert Sand today that D1000 was running in in those early years! Mike Spence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn T Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 My period of interest is late twenties early thirties so there is not much out there for me. To be honest I have been enjoying building some of the Parkside vans and wagons and would quite like it if someone were to produce some carriages in kit form (plastic) that we modellers could finish to our taste and ability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I don't suppose you have any photos of what you produced back then Coachmann. Several on eBay at present http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUPERB-LAWRENCE-GODDARD-BRASS-KIT-BUILT-GWR-1ST-CENTENARY-RESTAURANT-CAR-/381111208898?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item58bbff8bc2 Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I don't suppose you have any photos of what you produced back then Coachmann. I took very few photos in those days of film stock. Below are a few that passed through the paintshop many moons ago. All the scans from slides had to be sharpened and this has tended to make the lining rather more pronounced than it is....... A 19th Century Clerestory GWR Dining Car.... The ever popular Bullied Tavern Car as built with part-brick and plaster paintwork..... A WCJS/LNWR 12-wheel diner.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hawksworth Non-Corridor stock to Diagrams C83, D132, E166 & E167 would be completely useless and might follow Hornby logic for coaching stock production. Depends on who/what you model. I have a Hawksworth non corr compo to build for a mate with requests from others to build the same for them (which I had to decline). Why? Many operated on the LMR, particlularly in Manchester. coachmann, on 04 Jan 2015 - 13:02, said: I would not promote 'Toplights', one reason being Derek Lawrence and I were hardly ever asked for them I agree with Coachmann. I often build for close friends (with requests, usually declined, from others). Top of the list is Dreadnoughts, followed by Collett 1925 stock to provide the many different types other than the brake third and compo produced by Hornby, followed by South Wales stock (which are just 70ft version of the 1925 Colletts). From photographs some of us have been working on a 3-2-1 rule for a mix of stock in GWR trains. 3 steel sides - 2 toplights - 1 clerestory. With all this talk of toplights, there is a huge variety of post 1920 steel sided stock that are just a relevent as toplights. Equally there were many 'modernised' clerestories in frontline service until the 1940's. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Depends on who/what you model. I have a Hawksworth non corr compo to build for a mate with requests from others to build the same for them (which I had to decline). Why? Many operated on the LMR, particlularly in Manchester. I think you will find that they were to a Collett design [E156]. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2015 I think you will find that they were to a Collett design [E156]. Chris Agreed According to Michael Harris: M16797-16841 (Lot1749 dated 24/1/1953) and M16842-76 (Lot 1772 dated 26/12/1953) (First ones to this diagram for the GWR were Lot 1567 of 7/8/1937) Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If they were to ask me for advice I would say 1924-29 57' bow-ended Collett stock, not just because they could be found all over the system but because they would cover the longest period span from 1924 to withdrawal. Liveries would include the very attractive mock panelled choc & cream (1924-27), simplified choc & cream with coat of arms or roundel, , single and double waist livery for the post-war period, BR carmine & cream and finally lined maroon. Larry's suggestion for late 1920s 57' bow-ended Collett stock is an excellent one. It is well reasoned and a sensible choice for a manufacturer to make. Any announcement by a manufacturer intending to produce the 57' bow-ended Collett stock to a level of quality even close to the Maunsell or Hawksworth stock would be gleefully acclaimed by most of us looking for GWR coaches. Having said that, I will keep wishlisting for Churchward toplights (despite their complexity as a subject) and I will continue to wishlist for Collett coaches too, though not the later 1930s stock. As Larry points out, earlier stock is a better choice for manufacturers in terms of the liveries they carried, particularly in the RTR market, liveries consistent with the popular "GREAT <arms> WESTERN" locomotive livery. A wide range of GWR liveries is of course the primary argument people use regarding the Hawksworth coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2015 Larry's suggestion for late 1920s 57' bow-ended Collett stock is an excellent one. It is well reasoned and a sensible choice for a manufacturer to make. Any announcement by a manufacturer intending to produce the 57' bow-ended Collett stock to a level of quality even close to the Maunsell or Hawksworth stock would be gleefully acclaimed by most of us looking for GWR coaches. Having said that, I will keep wishlisting for Churchward toplights (despite their complexity as a subject) and I will continue to wishlist for Collett coaches too, though not the later 1930s stock. As Larry points out, earlier stock is a better choice for manufacturers in terms of the liveries they carried, particularly in the RTR market, liveries consistent with the popular "GREAT <arms> WESTERN" locomotive livery. A wide range of GWR liveries is of course the primary argument people use regarding the Hawksworth coaches. Call me old fashioned, but I would much prefer "GREAT <garter> Western" myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted January 10, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2015 From Hornby's website: "Suitable rolling stock: R4669, R4670"": Those are the clerestory coaches in the early 1920s livery. Err... not quite suitable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted May 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hornby have just announced five types of Collett bow-ended coaches, the brake third and composite both in RH and LH configurations, together with a third class coach. These are all corridor coaches with gangways. Let's hope they announce some non-gangwayed coaches to go with them at some time in the future. More details are available from http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/happy-birthday-frank-Hornby/ and you can pre-order them on http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/wagons-coaches/passenger-coaches/collett-bow-ended-standard-57-corridor-stock-coaches.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 15, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hornby have just announced five types of Collett bow-ended coaches, the brake third and composite both in RH and LH configurations, together with a third class coach. These are all corridor coaches with gangways. Let's hope they announce some non-gangwayed coaches to go with them at some time in the future. More details are available from http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/happy-birthday-frank-Hornby/ and you can pre-order them on http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/wagons-coaches/passenger-coaches/collett-bow-ended-standard-57-corridor-stock-coaches.html Excellent news, let's hope the old GWR coaches get relegated completely to Railroad. Just need a close coupled B set and some other non-corridor coaches. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Can I dream that these some day get shrunk to N Gauge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Can I dream that these some day get shrunk to N Gauge? "I close my eyes, pull back the curtain ..." Just don't ask me to sing it. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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