Is there a surprising lack of RTR GWR Coaches?

[gwrrob]

The K38 does seem very popular. there have been several kit versions available over the years and now another kit one about to hit the market despite there only ever being six built.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Its not a coach you could have more than one of is it.

[Adrian Wintle]

Its not a coach you could have more than one of is it.

There is a photo in one of the GWR in the 1930s books with two K38s in a train.

 

Discussion here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53570-k38-full-brake-liveries/

Adrian

[Coach bogie]

My friends and I have a sort of game when going to shows etc of how many 'Ocean Mails' K38's on one layout. The record is eight. Owner assumed they were built in large numbers. (says he who is running two and has an unbuilt BSL in stock)

 

Mike Wiltshire

[chrisf]

To answer the OP's question, the lack is not surprising.  Disappointing, yes, but not surprising.  It must be very difficult for a prospective manufacturer to decide what to makeb so they look elsewhere. Even Collett was building three different body profiles at the same time!

 

Now if someone were to announce a selection of GW suburbans from those built in the 1930s I would be very happy.  There are two different profiles and two different quarterlight sizes from which to choose, with flush glazing and different body lengths.  They lasted into the early 1960s so could have sported chocolate and cream, all-over brown, lined crimson, unlined crimson, unlined maroon or lined maroon depending on the period favoured.  This suggests to me that the manufacturers would prefer to make something a bit easier!

 

Chris

[Mallard60022]

This is an interesting thread. I suppose this is why there is (still) a wide range of kits available from several sources as many people (still) want GWR coaches?

How about we try to persuade the nice man at Hobby Holidays to run a coach kit building day or  weekend workshop? Perhaps then more folk, having attended, would feel confident about getting a Comet or similar and 'having a go'.

Part of the 'course' could be replacing sides on a plastic RTR body; Mr Comet could show how to do that in less than half an hour (as could Coach, TW et.al.) as one can see if you visit his stand at an exhibition.

Drake @ 36E

[Coach bogie]

Mr Comet could show how to do that in less than half an hour

 Half an hour - I wish. I cannot decide if this time scale is tongue in cheek or not.

 

I appreciate I am not the fastest worker but at least a couple of hours to sort the body out ready to accept the new sides, including cutting, sanding remaining detail off etc - much longer if the roof needs altering. The very last job is to attach the sides. I usually paint and line them before attaching. Much easier on a flat surface and no masking to paint the roof.

 

Three to four evenings is not unusual and it allows for drying/setting time at the various stages.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[coachmann]

 My January target is 22 days to build 22 coaches. Missed today though through painting one of them. It's interesting work becasue they are remainders from previous runs and differ. Run out of roofs now (Mr.Comet please note) so I'm building 54ft coaches to use up off-cuts too short for 57ft coaches. I had better mention the GWR so I wont be off-topic........None are GWR.

[Dunsignalling]

 

This suggests to me that the manufacturers would prefer to make something a bit easier!

 

Chris

Not all that much more complex than what Hornby took on with their Maunsells. They pragmatically settled on the 9' wide stock (R4) out of the three available but have (so far) under-exploited the livery options on the low-windowed stock.

 

"My" patch is R4 anyway but kits are available for R1 (8'6") or R0 (8'). I suspect many are willing to put up with R4s at least until they get round to building what they really want purely because they are such good models.

 

I think a similar decision would be have to be made whoever chose to produce the GWR stock.

 

John

[81E]

With all these lovely new tooled GWR locos recently and the Star just pre-ordered I have no decent new tooled pre-war GWR coaches for it to pull.

 

i can only wish..........

In "The Great Western Railway 150 Glorious Years" there is nice colour picture of Knight of St Patrick with an SR Maunsel brake coach behind it at Shrewsbury station on a through working to Birkenhead (I think) in the 30's. Sadly I do not know what made up the rest of the train but I think its a bit sad that this is the only coach up to modern standards that would fit the location and period of my model railway! (Welsh boarders north of Shrewsbury, ideally not later than 1935)

[Coach bogie]

In "The Great Western Railway 150 Glorious Years" there is nice colour picture of Knight of St Patrick with an SR Maunsel brake coach behind it at Shrewsbury station on a through working to Birkenhead (I think) in the 30's. Sadly I do not know what made up the rest of the train but I think its a bit sad that this is the only coach up to modern standards that would fit the location and period of my model railway! (Welsh boarders north of Shrewsbury, ideally not later than 1935)

Another regular was the Brighton/Portmouth - Cardiff via Salisbury & Bristol. Stars hauled all Southern stock/mostly Southern with one or two GWR vehicles on a daily basis in the 1930's Soole collection published in Great Western in the 1930's vol I & II covers this interesting working. Should be Ironclads but the Hornby's are an alternative. Same books show the Shrewsbury workings at Patchway with Southern and LMS stock in the formations.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

In the winter 1937-1938 workings there were three trains each way a day on the Cardiff-Brighton route (although the first one is diagrammed to Portsmouth, the balance working is from Brighton).

The 10:33 am Cardiff to Portsmouth was diagrammed as a Van Third-Third-Compo-Third-Van Third made up of GWR coaches with the vans outboard. This one also ran on Sundays. The return working was the 4:0 pm Brighton to Cardiff with the same set, plus a GWR third from Salisbury to Cardiff on Saturdays and a Siphon G from Bristol Stapleton Road to Neyland Mon-Fri (both were attached at the front). On Sundays this working was at 2:33 pm.

 

The remaining 4 trains all had a core set of Van Third-Third-First-Third-Van Third made up of SR stock, again with the van ends outboard. The 12:30 pm Cardiff to Brighton also conveyed one GWR Third to Salisbury on Mondays and three on Saturdays. The 11:10 am Brighton to Cardiff picked up a GWR Third in Salisbury on Saturdays. The 4:35 pm Cardiff to Brighton was just the SR set, and the 7:50 am Brighton to Cardiff balanced the GWR coaches (one third from Salisbury on Mondays and two on Saturdays). All GWR coaches were attached at the front.

 

The 9:30 am Bournemouth West to Birkenhead was diagrammed for SR and GWR stock on alternate days (with the exception of 2 GWR Brake Compos every day).

Formation:

Van Third (not indicated, but must be van laeding based on the return working)

Compo

Dining Car

Compo

Third

Van Third (van trailing)

Van Third (van leading, to Manchester, detached at Wellington)

Compo (to Manchester, detached at Wellington)

Brake Compo (Portsmouth Harbour to Manchester, detached at Wellington)

GWR Brake Compo (Cardiff to Birkenhead, attached at Shrewsbury)

GWR Brake Compo (Plymouth to Birkenhead, attached at Shrewsbury)

 

The reverse working (9.43 am) was the same coaches although the GWR Brake Compos were between the (reversed) Birkenhead section and the Manchester section (order Compo - Van Third - Brake Compo)

 

There were also Deal-Birkenhead, Birkenhead-Deal, Wolverhampton-Portsmouth Harbour, Portsmouth Harbour-Wolverhampton, and Birmingham-Bournemouth West trains on the schedule.

 

Adrian

[Coach bogie]

btw, Mike, I thought most Cities had acquired that form of strengthening (what the RCTS volume calls stage 3) by 1909?

I agree. Truro/ (and the Bachmann model) has stage 3 frame reinforcements on the fireman's side. On the drivers side, COT (and the mdel) have a later stage 5 modification. To this day COT is different on each side.

 

Although I do not have access to the record card, a fellow Great Western Study Group member suggested to me the stage 5 modifications were fitted in 1915 when new bolier and valves were fitted and in response to continued excessive wear on the right hand cylinder.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[81E]

I would like some RTR coach stock that would reasonably time up with if I bought the Bachmann City of Bath (last seen in 1927 ish).

I agree. I've got mine pulling some of coaches split from the Hornby 1908 Olympic train pack (not ideal but it looks nice from a distance if you squint) and an old Airfix/Mainline Siphon G or a rake of Siphon G's and H's with a 'Mailcoach' Monster and K's 6 wheeled siphon. However, I need an apropriate brake vehicle.

 

The main problem with this is that the detail level on the loco far outstrips that of the coaches. I would also add I would like to see some GWR coaches in GWR maroon.

[Coach bogie]

I agree. I've got mine pulling some of coaches split from the Hornby 1908 Olympic train pack (not ideal but it looks nice from a distance if you squint) and an old Airfix/Mainline Siphon G or a rake of Siphon G's and H's with a 'Mailcoach' Monster and K's 6 wheeled siphon. However, I need an apropriate brake vehicle.

Mailcoach also produced a K22 full brake of 1922 vintage, though it is not in the current Cooppercraft list.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[81E]

Mailcoach also produced a K22 full brake of 1922 vintage, though it is not in the current Cooppercraft list.

 

Mike Wiltshire

That's a shame. I could do with a full break (other than the Hawkesworths which I use in my "later period" sets. Was it as easy to build as the monster?

 

I have to admit I am working on som Slaters Toplights (though not for about a year now). As my only skill with etched brass seems to be ruining a perfectly good etching (!) I have substituted the plastic monster bogies for the etched brass ones from the kit. I know this is not strictly accurate (the toplights used the shorter American Bogie) they dont look too out of place so far. I will however need to add the underframe detail before I cabn be sure. I 'm just not looking forward to drilling all the holes for door handles etc and then painting.

 

It is the painting stage that fills me with worry since I have never had much luck with cream. So freight stock and brown vehicles no problem but coaches... 

[Coach bogie]

That's a shame. I could do with a full break (other than the Hawkesworths which I use in my "later period" sets. Was it as easy to build as the monster?

 

I have to admit I am working on som Slaters Toplights (though not for about a year now). As my only skill with etched brass seems to be ruining a perfectly good etching (!) I have substituted the plastic monster bogies for the etched brass ones from the kit. I know this is not strictly accurate (the toplights used the shorter American Bogie) they dont look too out of place so far. I will however need to add the underframe detail before I cabn be sure. I 'm just not looking forward to drilling all the holes for door handles etc and then painting.

 

It is the painting stage that fills me with worry since I have never had much luck with cream. So freight stock and brown vehicles no problem but coaches... 

Alternative for the bogies are cast ones from 247/David Geen etc. Glue construction and add valuable weight lower down.

 

As for painting, I have always primed the coach body with car spray primer first (before door handles etc). You can then spray the cream on or several brush coats of thinned cream.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[kandc_au]

That's a shame. I could do with a full break (other than the Hawkesworths which I use in my "later period" sets. Was it as easy to build as the monster?

 

I have to admit I am working on som Slaters Toplights (though not for about a year now). As my only skill with etched brass seems to be ruining a perfectly good etching (!) I have substituted the plastic monster bogies for the etched brass ones from the kit. I know this is not strictly accurate (the toplights used the shorter American Bogie) they dont look too out of place so far. I will however need to add the underframe detail before I cabn be sure. I 'm just not looking forward to drilling all the holes for door handles etc and then painting.

 

It is the painting stage that fills me with worry since I have never had much luck with cream. So freight stock and brown vehicles no problem but coaches... 

 

There is a Comet K4 60ft  Full brake on that sales site everyone either loves or loathes.

170973401771

 

No connection to seller whatsoever, just saw it this morning.

 

Khris

[Coach bogie]

 

 

It is the painting stage that fills me with worry since I have never had much luck with cream. So freight stock and brown vehicles no problem but coaches... 

 

Panelled toplight above is primed with grey Holts car primer then sprayed white (masking the lower part) then brush painted cream with three coats of thinned Precision cream. Lower only needed one coat of Precison brown. After transfers etc varnished with Ronseal Matt, applied by briush.

 

Lower shot steel toplight main colours all car spray.

 

If you see some brass sides cheap at a show etc, it may be worth while to buy and experiment to find a technique that suits you best. This is how i developed painting skills using some damaged/out of register brass sides, picked up for little money at a show.

 

Good luck

 

Mike Wiltshire

[lapford34102]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3395&start=50Hi,

Faced with the same problem and looking for a cheapish  and fairly simple solution made an attempt to improve the Hornby "Collett" coaches into something a bit closer looking.. I realise they are not that accurate but they do look more acceptable now when compared to more modern offerings. Mine are in Crimson and Cream done very nicely by Hornby and the mods only require a bit of touching up. The more about the work here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3395&start=50 but here's a couple of photo's

 

 

 

 

Hope this is of interest to some

 

Stu

[Rugd1022]

Stu - they really do look the part, nice subtle weathering too. Dare say they'd look great mixed in with other Colletts and some Hawksworths... ;-)

[coachmann]

Those Collett upgrades look really neat Stuart. I know keep saying it won't make it happen, but I do wish one of the RTR companies would realise these are the coaches to tool up for.

 

Right from starting out supplying metal RTR coaches in 1973 until ceasing painting them in 2004, the 1923-29 57ft bow-ended coaches were the top-selling GWR coach. From a builders point of view, two things mitigate against them, the 'G' grab handles and the end pipes that go up onto the roof via a loop. Getting these to all look alike calls for some jigging but this can take the form of a set of cheap pliers suitably modified to produce one item such as grab handles.

[The Stationmaster]

Those Collett upgrades look really neat Stuart. I know keep saying it won't make it happen, but I do wish one of the RTR companies would realise these are the coaches to tool up for.

 

Right from starting out supplying metal RTR coaches in 1973 until ceasing painting them in 2004, the 1923-29 57ft bow-ended coaches were the top-selling GWR coach. From a builders point of view, two things mitigate against them, the 'G' grab handles and the end pipes that go up onto the roof via a loop. Getting these to all look alike calls for some jigging but this can take the form of a set of cheap pliers suitably modified to produce one item such as grab handles.

And probably no problem for clever design either

[Karhedron]

I suspect it is more about perceived market. The era from nationalisation until the end of steam is still the biggest by market share and the Hawksworths sit squarely within that.

 

I agree that good cases can be made for other stock, particularly the early 30s Collett range but my guess is that Hornby went with what they perceived to be a "safe bet" with the Hawksworth stock. In any case, don't knock it, I would love some Hawksworth coaches in N gauge.

[coachmann]

I suspect it is more about perceived market. The era from nationalisation until the end of steam is still the biggest by market share and the Hawksworths sit squarely within that.

 

I agree that good cases can be made for other stock, particularly the early 30s Collett range but my guess is that Hornby went with what they perceived to be a "safe bet" with the Hawksworth stock. In any case, don't knock it, I would love some Hawksworth coaches in N gauge.

Hawksworth coaches 1948-1967.  (Basically useless for GWR. Majority BR blood & custard and BR maroon)

Collett 57' bow ended stock 1923-61. (GWR pre-28 panelled, 1930s simple livery, postwar livery, BR blood & custard and BR maroon)

The latter would have served a lot more than just the BR market. I agree the Hawksworths had to be done RTR at some time but putting the cart before the horse springs to mind in this instance.

[Karhedron]

Yes it is true that the Bow ended stock was much longer lived with a greater variety of liveries but that is not the whole story. For much of the 50s, Hawksworth stock made up some of the most consistent rakes on the WR. Bow ended stock would frequently be mixed in with a variety of other stock types. Doing the Hawksworth makes it easier for Hornby to sell complete rakes.