Is there a surprising lack of RTR GWR Coaches?

[coachmann]

Yes it is true that the Bow ended stock was much longer lived with a greater variety of liveries but that is not the whole story. For much of the 50s, Hawksworth stock made up some of the most consistent rakes on the WR. Bow ended stock would frequently be mixed in with a variety of other stock types. Doing the Hawksworth makes it easier for Hornby to sell complete rakes.

And that my friend betrays a lack of knowledge of coaching stock....Hawksworths rarely ran in complete rakes. They ran exactly as you described for 57' bow enders.... indicriminately, although one did find rakes of them in BR days probably because they were brought out of winter storage in blocks for the summer timetabled trains.

[rovex]

As I understand the position, except for special trains (Cornish Riviera for example) most trains were made up of a mix of stock. Even then trains like the Cornisch Riviera was only made up of the same stock for limited periods.

 

Photographs often show a mix of trains, Collet 57 footers mixed with toplights, mixed with centenary stock.

 

Its only modellers that seem to have this fixation with running complete trains of the same stock.

[chrisf]

There were no Hawksworth restaurant or buffet cars so the 'best' trains could not have been wholly formed of Hawksworth stock.

 

The latest issue of Steam Days has a useful article on these vehicles.

 

Chris

[Ozexpatriate]

... my guess is that Hornby went with what they perceived to be a "safe bet" with the Hawksworth stock. In any case, don't knock it, I would love some Hawksworth coaches in N gauge.

If I recall correctly, the Hawksworth coaches were the highest polling (Western) coaches in the MREmag poll at the time.

 

There was some speculation that this voting included some less informed enthusiasts who saw them listed as GWR, together of course with nationalised western region fans.

[Ozexpatriate]

Photographs often show a mix of trains, Collet 57 footers mixed with toplights, mixed with centenary stock.

 

Its only modellers that seem to have this fixation with running complete trains of the same stock.

Indeed so. (Well they do look nice.)

 

As expressed rather entertainingly here:

Wishlists based on coach style types always miss the mark. RTR, the smart move would be one new Clerestory, one new Toplight, and one new 1925 Collett. It would then be possible to make up a train looking like a real GWR train.

 

[ThePipersSon]

I have just been browsing 'Western Region Steam 1950 - 1965'. 

 

The first photograph is of the down Cornish Riviera on 25th June 1955.  Of the thirteen coaches, most seem to be Hawksworth.  Three in the middle are not, so I assume they are catering coaches.  Also, there seems to be strengthener on the back which isn't Hawksworth, but I cannot be sure.

 

Inside, there is a picture of a diverted Cornish Riviera going through Bristol in 1954.  All the visible stock (7 coaches?) are Hawksworth design.

 

So, for a brief time period, you could be justified running mostly Hawksworth stock on named trains.

[coachmann]

I have just been browsing 'Western Region Steam 1950 - 1965'. 

 

The first photograph is of the down Cornish Riviera on 25th June 1955.  Of the thirteen coaches, most seem to be Hawksworth.  Three in the middle are not, so I assume they are catering coaches.  Also, there seems to be strengthener on the back which isn't Hawksworth, but I cannot be sure.

 

Inside, there is a picture of a diverted Cornish Riviera going through Bristol in 1954.  All the visible stock (7 coaches?) are Hawksworth design.

 

So, for a brief time period, you could be justified running mostly Hawksworth stock on named trains.

It's your trainset....

[Coach bogie]

 

So, for a brief time period, you could be justified running mostly Hawksworth stock on named trains.

Challenge with Hawksworth stock is that Hawksworth never designed a Diner. Even the slip coach came much later. The uniform rake of Hawksworths was always broken by a Collett diner somehwere in the train with completely different profile. There is no rtr diner suitable as the Hornby Collett has the earlier windows and the MK 1 diners were not used with Hawksworth until much later due to incompatable gangways.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Budgie]

Going back to the question that forms the title of this thread, I have just got off the phone from Comet Models. My next order (of several non-gangwayed coaches) is being held up because they have been selling so many kits that they have run out of underframes. Obviously they wouldn't be selling so many if more were available RTR, so Yes, there is a surprising lack of RTR GWR coaches.

 

No doubt after I have constructed my Cardiff district set, they will immediately feature in one of the manufacturers' forthcoming catalogues.

[Coach bogie]

If anyone is looking for easy build 70ft South Wales stock there are six all plastic MAJ kits with pre printed litho sides on eBay at the moment, including brakes and diner.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAJ-KIT-FOR-A-GWR-70-FT-CORRIDOR-THIRD-COACH-DIA-C44-C45-/380560725066?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item589b2fd44a

 

Mike Wiltshire

[gwrrob]

Theres plenty of Mallard models 70' toplights on there too.

[Adrian Wintle]

If anyone is looking for easy build 70ft South Wales stock there are six all plastic MAJ kits with pre printed litho sides on eBay at the moment, including brakes and diner.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAJ-KIT-FOR-A-GWR-70-FT-CORRIDOR-THIRD-COACH-DIA-C44-C45-/380560725066?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item589b2fd44a

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I'm not sure that ancient MAJ kits are the best way to go (I'm not even sure they were when they weren't ancient). My experience with them has led me to use then as a source of very rough spare parts. BTW, I paid about $5 a pop for the 57' kits I have. While they do have litho-printed sides (mostly pretty close to being in register), they are actually stickers that go onto clear plastic sides (with a reasonably nice tumblehome), so the windows end up being clear vinyl over clear plastic.

 

The plastic they are made of is resistant to some adhesives, brittle, and has a tendency to warp. It can also delaminate (presumably an age and/or reaction to adhesive issue).

 

Adrian

[Coach bogie]

I'm not sure that ancient MAJ kits are the best way to go (I'm not even sure they were when they weren't ancient). My experience with them has led me to use then as a source of very rough spare parts. BTW, I paid about $5 a pop for the 57' kits I have. While they do have litho-printed sides (mostly pretty close to being in register), they are actually stickers that go onto clear plastic sides (with a reasonably nice tumblehome), so the windows end up being clear vinyl over clear plastic.

 

The plastic they are made of is resistant to some adhesives, brittle, and has a tendency to warp. It can also delaminate (presumably an age and/or reaction to adhesive issue).

 

Adrian

 

I agree. As one who can build brass kits, I would not bother with them, but to the many who claim 'not to have the skill's', they are an excellent starter kit, requiring no more abiliity than is required with an Airfix kit, and a way to get GWR 70ft stock to those who are dependent on RTR.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[lapford34102]

but to the many who claim 'not to have the skill's'

 

I don't claim "not to have the skills" - I've got the pictures to prove it but suspect they might be a bit to distressing for some.  I've got a couple of bodged Mallard kits that are probably past redemption hence my efforts to improve the Hornby coaches.

Going to the brass option is a way getting what you want but for a variety of reasons it's not for everyone.

 

Stu

[Coach bogie]

 suspect they might be a bit to distressing for some.

But to other this may be a solution.....

 

OK. I give up.

 

I just thought the many posters who want different stock but to whom, brass kit building is not going to happen, the MAJ (glorified Aifix/Ratio build) may be an answer to run GWR mainline stock not readily available. If you an build a Ratio coach - you can build one of these in a couple of evenings using only glue and a craft knife, rather than waiting endlessly for the big two, to maybe produce stock for GWR modelers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[lapford34102]

OK. I give up

 

That's exactly what I did...  Partly because I didn't find the books, Wild Swan for one, on brass coach building particularly helpful - at least to me - and partly because it seemed to be becoming a fairly expensive learning curve.

 

I'll post the pics - on backup HD so will need to find - and we'll go on from there if it's any use. One kit was a Mallard Toplight Brake compo, I think the body was passable but got completely foxed by the roof.

 

Stu

[pete_mcfarlane]

That's exactly what I did...  Partly because I didn't find the books, Wild Swan for one, on brass coach building particularly helpful - at least to me - and partly because it seemed to be becoming a fairly expensive learning curve.

 

I'll post the pics - on backup HD so will need to find - and we'll go on from there if it's any use. One kit was a Mallard Toplight Brake compo, I think the body was passable but got completely foxed by the roof.

 

Stu

You can buy very nice resin Toplight roofs from Dvaid Geen, for about £12.

 

Didn't the Mallard kits have pre-formed brass roofs, or are they the work of Satan  vacuum formed? I've never liked vacuum formed roofs myself.

[Coach bogie]

That's exactly what I did...  Partly because I didn't find the books, Wild Swan for one, on brass coach building particularly helpful - at least to me - and partly because it seemed to be becoming a fairly expensive learning curve.

 

I'll post the pics - on backup HD so will need to find - and we'll go on from there if it's any use. One kit was a Mallard Toplight Brake compo, I think the body was passable but got completely foxed by the roof.

 

Stu

What has building brass Mallard's got do do with building MAJ PLASTIC coach kits? At £16.00 - hardly and expensive learning curve (a Ratio GWR 4 wheller is £11.00 new).

 

Conversely to your attempts, my first Mallards are still running, not as good as current models,but OK, but I had learnt coach construction via Ratio, PC and MAJ.before attempting brass kits.

 

It concerns me that your bad experience with a totally different type of kit, might put off the modelers who really want different stock, when the MAJ is a excellent entry level kit for 70ft coaches that otherwise is brass, zinc or aluminium construction, or wait forever for rtr.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Star-rider]

I seem to remember that Triang coaches used to have separate sides. I'm pretty sure the ones that came with my trainset (B12 and I think Mk1 coaches) did. I assume the chassis with, I think, the ends attached, was standard for a number of products. Couldn't the same idea be used, with maybe a simplified chassis/bogies that could be upgraded by anyone who cared enough? Maybe just a couple available complete with the sides that would be most popular RTR, but with a range of extra sides available from the manufacturer. They would probably sell far more of the RTR coaches, if there was a wide range of sides, in different conditions and liveries, with special editions as well.

 

The sides would also sell to scratchbuilders and probably to go on the correct chassis from small manufacturers, and even more RTR coaches would sell to take the sides produced by small suppliers. So the big and smaller manufacturers would benefit.

 

I have been wondering if we would be better served by begging for some sort of “knock-down” RTR given all of the issues discussed above.

 

Anyone who has built a Comet kit will be aware of the commonality of many parts. Imagine for a moment a box containing the underframe, bogies, ends, general fittings and a roof and hanging next to it a choice of pre-printed sides that you can purchase separately.

 

Ideally a snap-together construction could be used to minimise the need for glue. The under-floor could be studded in a similar way to Lego so that vacuum cylinders and battery boxes can be pushed into the right place for the particular diagram.

 

The underside of the roof moulding could be etched with grid lines so that with a drill in a pin vice the roof ventilators can be accurately positioned as per the instructions with the sides.

 

Oh, and although I want my sides pre-painted, can I have a choice of running numbers (in sets of five because I am bound to make a mess of one of them) on a transfer sheet?

 

Surely the only limited volume tooling would be for the specific coach sides.

 

Now is this design-clever or am I in the realms of fantasy?

[Coach bogie]

I have been wondering if we would be better served by begging for some sort of “knock-down” RTR given all of the issues discussed above.

 

Anyone who has built a Comet kit will be aware of the commonality of many parts. Imagine for a moment a box containing the underframe, bogies, ends, general fittings and a roof and hanging next to it a choice of pre-printed sides that you can purchase separately.

 

Ideally a snap-together construction could be used to minimise the need for glue. The under-floor could be studded in a similar way to Lego so that vacuum cylinders and battery boxes can be pushed into the right place for the particular diagram.

 

The underside of the roof moulding could be etched with grid lines so that with a drill in a pin vice the roof ventilators can be accurately positioned as per the instructions with the sides.

 

Oh, and although I want my sides pre-painted, can I have a choice of running numbers (in sets of five because I am bound to make a mess of one of them) on a transfer sheet?

 

Surely the only limited volume tooling would be for the specific coach sides.

 

Now is this design-clever or am I in the realms of fantasy?

 

It's called Southern Pride Models. If only they produced GWR models

 

http://www.southernpridemodels.co.uk/http://www.southernpridemodels.co.uk/

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Star-rider]

Ah well.

 

 I know the name, but I have never taken a look at exactly what they did as advertised products seemed outside the scope of my interests.

 

So the principal must be sound then…..

 

I wonder how many hundreds of Airfix / Dapol / Hornby Centenary composites and brakes there are out there and how many owners would take the chance to make up a more prototypical formation. An ideal candidate surely?

[gwrrob]

 

 

I wonder how many hundreds of Airfix / Dapol / Hornby Centenary composites and brakes there are out there and how many owners would take the chance to make up a more prototypical formation. An ideal candidate surely?

 

I hope not as I've now built all the Comet kit centenaries I need.Lets have something different from either of the big two please.

[coachmann]

If people find CKD (completely knocked down 'kits') simple and speedy to assemble, so to do the workers in China, and they can get a lot more money for them too!  It was a Triang gimmick in the 1960s.

[coachmann]

I have given producing GWR 'Toplight' and 1923-29 57ft bow-ended coaches some consideration in the past, but customers would want them painting in GWR liveries and that is something I won't consider anymore. Livery isn't the problem..........But I spent years struggling with GW transfers that won't adhere. I built my own GWR BR-era requirements from Comet kits.

[gwrrob]

I think Ian Willetts does the 1923-29 bow end coaches in his range.