Is there a surprising lack of RTR GWR Coaches?

[Rugd1022]

 Better get scanning this beauty then.Yes please.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/7096988899/

 

And what a beauty it is too.... mind you, this may sound like sacrelige to many, but I'd love to see it repainted back into BR crimson and cream, after all, it must have carried this livery once in order to have survived long enough to be preserved in the first place... which begs the question - is the current (beautifully applied) GW livery accurate for the state of the bodywork...?

[Adrian Wintle]

And what a beauty it is too.... mind you, this may sound like sacrelige to many, but I'd love to see it repainted back into BR crimson and cream, after all, it must have carried this livery once in order to have survived long enough to be preserved in the first place... which begs the question - is the current (beautifully applied) GW livery accurate for the state of the bodywork..

 

Yes, that coach was built as a metal-skinned coach and would have been painted in the faux-panel livery from circa 1922 until circa 1927. Even the early Colletts were painted in that livery when originally built.

 

This livery was used to make the new smooth-sided coaches match the older panelled coaches.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1922.html

 

Adrian

[Miss Prism]

Wishlists based on coach style types always miss the mark. RTR, the smart move would be one new Clerestory, one new Toplight, and one new 1925 Collett. It would then be possible to make up a train looking like a real GWR train.

[Chris Higgs]

Wishlists based on coach style types always miss the mark. RTR, the smart move would be one new Clerestory, one new Toplight, and one new 1925 Collett. It would then be possible to make up a train looking like a real GWR train.

 

Smart move for the punter maybe. For the manufacturer far more work than three coaches of the same type, where he can do the research and master production in far less time. And therefore, the latter is far more likely to happen.

 

We should at least wish for something which is possible to see happening.

 

Chris

[Adrian Wintle]

Wishlists based on coach style types always miss the mark. RTR, the smart move would be one new Clerestory, one new Toplight, and one new 1925 Collett. It would then be possible to make up a train looking like a real GWR train.

Of course, the complaints would then start that they were the wrong diagrams...

 

I'd suggest a C10 non-corridor clerestory third, a D40 clerestory van third (ex second), a C54 Collett third, and an E88 toplight compo, and a K14 or similar full brake. In order, I'd suggest the following liveries - unlined choc/cream (1928, just repainted), lined lake (1921), faux-panelled (1925 as built), lined panelled (1922-27), and brown. An additional coach could be an A10 70' toplight first, in unlined choc/cream and downgraded to a third.

 

Then you could really do a proper GWR secondary train from the late '20s to early '30s.

 

Adrian

(yes, I'm kidding, but only a bit)

[Adrian Wintle]

Smart move for the punter maybe. For the manufacturer far more work than three coaches of the same type, where he can do the research and master production in far less time. And therefore, the latter is far more likely to happen.

 

All right, all toplights - A10 70' toplight first, C32 toplight third, D56 toplight van third (later lot).

 

They are all toplights, but there is not one significant feature common to them all...

 

Adrian

[Budgie]

Referring back to message 95

it looks like I am going to have to hone my soldering skills. I want a few 5-coach Cardiff valleys sets (that's BT-T-C-T-BT) for my 56xxs to pull, ...

I've done just that, and built an A42 intermediate autocoach from Comet kit W18. It was quite straightforward, and didn't take long, and just needs painting now. I enjoyed assembling it so much, that I've jumped in at the deep end and ordered a 5-coach set from SRG in their Phoenix range.

 

Since this sort of activity usually precedes somebody bringing the same models out RTR, I wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturer announces them in due course.

[Rugd1022]

All right, all toplights - A10 70' toplight first, C32 toplight third, D56 toplight van third (later lot).

 

They are all toplights, but there is not one significant feature common to them all...

 

Adrian

 

And that's about it in a nutshell I guess Adrian...! I've been through my Russell books several times looking at such vehicles and lose track completely, it must be a nightmare for anyone contemplating R-T-R versions.

 

I do enjoy thumbing through Jim's books though, imagining what the photos would look like in colour

[Joseph_Pestell]

The Hornby Collett stock, now in the Railroad range are 1925 build stock.

 

Mike Wiltshire

They are in the Railroad range for a reason! But perhaps a basis for improvement???

[Coach bogie]

ordered a 5-coach set from SRG in their Phoenix range.

 

Please let us know how you get on, as some of us have had great difficulty getting a response form SRG.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Coach bogie]

They are in the Railroad range for a reason! But perhaps a basis for improvement???

 A new version of these with the missing diagrams, as an alternative to toplights, is what some of us have been suggesting for some time.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

 A new version of these with the missing diagrams, as an alternative to toplights, is what some of us have been suggesting for some time.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Also note that the second place on the 2012 poll results was these coaches. Third place was the later Colletts (the Bachmann coaches and their relatives).

 

Adrian

[coachmann]

My vote goes with the 1923-29 GWR 57ft coaches because it was by far and away the best seller in our range of LSM coaches from 1973. Requiring only one length underframe and 7ft w.b. bogies, the 57ft stock provides all the variety one is likely to need as well as some good selling one-off's........I refer to the Dining Car and the Ocean Mails.

 

Liveries range from 1923-27 mock fully panelled livery, simple choc & cream, post-war double waist livery, BR blood & custard and BR lined maroon.

 

Toplight coaches in all their varieties came along later from the etced brass ranges and despite better detailing never sold that well.

[gwrrob]

My vote goes with the 1923-29 GWR 57ft coaches because it was by far and away the best seller in our range of LSM coaches from 1973. Requiring only one length underframe and 7ft w.b. bogies, the 57ft stock provides all the variety one is likely to need as well as some good selling one-off's........I refer to the Dining Car and the Ocean Mails.

 

Liveries range from 1923-27 mock fully panelled livery, simple choc & cream, post-war double waist livery, BR blood & custard and BR lined maroon.

 

Toplight coaches in all their varieties came along later from the etced brass ranges and despite better detailing never sold that well.

 

How much do you reckon these would cost in todays money if you were still doing them ?

[Ozexpatriate]

Well, this thread is more contentious than I had expected. 

 

I presume that the existing venerable Hornby Collett coaches, suburbans, autocoach and clerestories are already 'design clever', so I'm not sure what the payoff for tooling up replacements for them would be. Toplights would certainly have more 'wow' factor. 

Since they are all existing tooling (some not even Hornby tooling), i don't see how you could consider them to be 'design clever' as there is no design involved. 'Market clever' to get people to still buy them, maybe.
 
The payoff would be a range of GWR coaches to match the ranges already produced for the other members of the big 4 and for BR. The new-tool replacements for the LNER, LMS, and SR coaches were replacements for the existing ranges that date from the same time as the Colletts, so it isn't a stretch to see a replacement for them as well.

Adrian,

The question I was asking myself was: has the market situation changed such that Hornby is now less-inclined to do a high-specification replacement range of GWR coaches like they did for the SR, LNER, etc? That was the essence of my pun on 'design clever'.

How different would a new set of 1925 Collett coaches be (assuming they were designed with the 'design clever' approach in mind) compared with the existing Railroad Range Colletts?

Collett coaches built from 1925 on are the more pragmatic option (particularly with their longer BR(W) lifespan) and were they produced, I would buy them. Churchward Toplights have much more 'wow' factor, as evidenced by these very lovely illustrations shared earlier, which makes them so much more desirable to me.

[Coach bogie]

Toplight coaches in all their varieties came along later from the etced brass ranges and despite better detailing never sold that well.

 

They do not sell well.

 

The David Geen range covers many of the steel types and have never sold in huge numbers. It was thought originally it was due to the complexity of etched kits but it was later found that the coaches only represented vehicles at a certain point in their lives and it was impossible to please all of the modellers all of the time. There is a private commission to etch one of the steel sided toplights to represent one coach at a specific time point, from a dated photograph as the existing kit to the same diagram is different.

 

Personally, I have purchased several kits of the diagrams I have been looking for, as funds allow, as some of these may not be repeated, and I strongly believ the rtr boys will not touch them.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[gwrrob]

There are RTR coaches available from here for the discerning modeller with deep pockets perhaps .

 

 

He doesn't do Toplights in his range but a fair few Collett types including this beauty.Has anyone on here used him ?

[Adrian Wintle]

How different would a new set of 1925 Collett coaches be (assuming they were designed with the 'design clever' approach in mind) compared with the existing Railroad Range Colletts?

 

A new range (even at a lower spec than tha Maunsells) could have accurate underframes (one? basic underframe + variable u/f equipment), a better looking roof with ventilators etc in the correct places, accurate sides, accurate ends and gangways. It could be done like the old Mk1s (or like the Bachmann Mk1s) where the sides are separate. The glazing could be made better too.

 

Including right- and left-handed variants there are, I think we decided, 10 different coaches that could be produced:

D95 van third in right-* and left-hand

D94 van third in right- and left-hand

E127 compo in right- and left-hand*

E128 brake compo

C54 third

H33 restaurant compo* **

K38 full brake (Ocean Mails)

 

* matches the existing Hornby

** needs two sets of sides for pre- and post- rebuild

 

The A19 van first left-hand (ex articulated stock) was almost exactly the same size and could also be a possibility

 

Adrian

[BernardTPM]

How different would a new set of 1925 Collett coaches be (assuming they were designed with the 'design clever' approach in mind) compared with the existing Railroad Range Colletts?

As well as the compromised parts that were shared across the range (chassis and interiors) the Composite has the wrong balance of First and Third compartments (though the division on the corridor windows is in the right place, but on the wrong width panel!) while the Brake Third gets the guard's compartment side arrangement wrong. Interestingly the body is the right length without the ends on.

 

 

Collett coaches built from 1925 on are the more pragmatic option (particularly with their longer BR(W) lifespan) and were they produced, I would buy them. Churchward Toplights have much more 'wow' factor, as evidenced by these very lovely illustrations shared earlier, which makes them so much more desirable to me.

Don't forget that the 1925 Colletts can be done in fully panelled livery, which would probably give you 90% of the 'wow' factor of the Toplights without the problems raised as to particular type. They could even do the livery on the existing bodies which might make detailing up the shells worthwhile. That isn't the kind of livery that is undertaken lightly even by skilled painters.

[BernardTPM]

A new range (even at a lower spec than tha Maunsells) could have accurate underframes (one? basic underframe + variable u/f equipment), a better looking roof with ventilators etc in the correct places, accurate sides, accurate ends and gangways. It could be done like the old Mk1s (or like the Bachmann Mk1s) where the sides are separate. The glazing could be made better too.

 

Including right- and left-handed variants there are, I think we decided, 10 different coaches that could be produced:

D95 van third in right-* and left-hand

D94 van third in right- and left-hand

E127 compo in right- and left-hand*

E128 brake compo

C54 third

H33 restaurant compo* **

K38 full brake (Ocean Mails)

 

* matches the existing Hornby

** needs two sets of sides for pre- and post- rebuild

 

The A19 van first left-hand (ex articulated stock) was almost exactly the same size and could also be a possibility

 

Adrian

A good list, though dropping the D94s to simplify the range wouldn't be too tragic. Without going and looking, I suspect non-corridor coaches of the same pattern could be done too, using at least most of the same underfame and bogies (and possibly the inner core of a body tool).

 

P.S. Lots of the Brake Thirds remained in departmental service well into the 1980s as well.

[Budgie]

Please let us know how you get on, as some of us have had great difficulty getting a response form SRG.

 

Mike Wiltshire

I just phoned him using the number on the site. I'll let you know how I get on.

[rovex]

I just phoned him using the number on the site. I'll let you know how I get on.

Please do. I phoned him three years ago with a request and I am still awaiting a response.

 

regards

[coachmann]

On 03/01/2013 at 19:42, gwrrob said:

There are RTR coaches available from here for the discerning modeller with deep pockets perhaps .

 

 

He doesn't do Toplights in his range but a fair few Collett types including this beauty.Has anyone on here used him ?

Ian Willetts took over where Derek Lawrence left off, indeed Ian had been building for Lawrence Scale Models for many years before Derek's death. He does a very good product.

[Adrian Wintle]

Don't forget that the 1925 Colletts can be done in fully panelled livery, which would probably give you 90% of the 'wow' factor of the Toplights without the problems raised as to particular type. They could even do the livery on the existing bodies which might make detailing up the shells worthwhile. That isn't the kind of livery that is undertaken lightly even by skilled painters.

In general terms it is the livery shown on the flush-sided toplight linked to earlier in the thread. I'd like to see that done on a model.

 

Adrian

[Coach bogie]

K38 full brake (Ocean Mails)

The K38 does seem very popular. there have been several kit versions available over the years and now another kit one about to hit the market despite there only ever being six built.

 

Mike Wiltshire