East Coast Main Line to Virgin Trains East Coast

[cravensdmufan]

"East Coast are using a hired in ex East Midlands HST set that appears on a regular basis, especially at Weekends. The interior is 'basic' when compared to the VEC sets!"

 

Indeed. They have been using that since the start of the franchise usually on the Leeds service midweek, and worse it's getting every month! I often use the service and my heart sinks when it approaches platform 4 at Peterborough!

Edited May 2, 2016 by cravensdmufan

[60159]

"East Coast are using a hired in ex East Midlands HST set that appears on a regular basis, especially at Weekends. The interior is 'basic' when compared to the VEC sets!"

 

Indeed. They have been using that since the start of the franchise usually on the Leeds service midweek, and worse it's getting every month! I often use the service and my heart sinks when it approaches platform 4 at Peterborough!

 

Basic is OK, falling apart is not! The upholstery actually looked like it had been systematically vandalised.

 

It does seem this set is a one-off as I have enjoyed every other 125 trip between Perth and London on the Inverness service over many years.

 

On the day in question we got off at York to change onto a York - London electric to allow us to change again at Peterborough for trundle across to Norwich. Didn't particularly enjoy the Peterborough - Norwich and pitied those who had endured the train all the way from Manchester. The Norwich to London the next day was very nice and a bargain - first class advance purchase single on 3.30pm (very off peak) with a senior railcard - £9.90.

[rockershovel]

The plan is to put two new platforms capable of taking terminating trains from London where the disused taxi rank is, I believe the planning application is in at the moment, (All so to extend a couple of west facing bays as well) This won't solve the problem of fist class being a long walk away but it should bring more of these trains into the station as london trains will uses these allowing use of the through platforms by the new longer Edinburgh to Glasgow trains and the HSTs when they get up here.

By "disused taxi rank", do you mean the heavily used drop off/pick up area, recently constructed to accommodate private cars displaced by the remarking of the taxi rank and reconstruction of the entry from Bourges Boukevard? By "two new platforms for terminating trains from London", does that mean the old one (which is still there but has no track at present)?

[rockershovel]

"East Coast are using a hired in ex East Midlands HST set that appears on a regular basis, especially at Weekends. The interior is 'basic' when compared to the VEC sets!"Indeed. They have been using that since the start of the franchise usually on the Leeds service midweek, and worse it's getting every month! I often use the service and my heart sinks when it approaches platform 4 at Peterborough!

Is that thing still in use?

 

it isn't just the general decrepitude of the set, it's the way the train crew appear to be agency staff with assorted uniforms issued to past franchises, in some cases to completely different people... joking apart, that set is an embarrassment to all concerned

[sng7]

By "disused taxi rank", do you mean the heavily used drop off/pick up area, recently constructed to accommodate private cars displaced by the remarking of the taxi rank and reconstruction of the entry from Bourges Boukevard? By "two new platforms for terminating trains from London", does that mean the old one (which is still there but has no track at present)?

 

Platfroms 5 and 6 which are the short bays normally holding the thunderbird/sleeper locomotives at the south end of the station are going to be extended up t through the old taxi rank in the station (next to the Virgin East Coast First Class Lounge and Platform 7) These will be capable of holding 10 coach IEPs and should hold most of the terminating East Coast services that currently use through platforms. Platform 12 will also be extended by demolishing the scotrail first class lounge to hold 8 carriage Edinburgh to Glasgow services.

[Richard E]

By "disused taxi rank", do you mean the heavily used drop off/pick up area, recently constructed to accommodate private cars displaced by the remarking of the taxi rank and reconstruction of the entry from Bourges Boukevard? By "two new platforms for terminating trains from London", does that mean the old one (which is still there but has no track at present)?

This refers to Edinburgh, not Peterborough as you seem to have assumed. With the bay taken out of service in Peterborough to lengthen platform 1 to the south there is no longer any access without major works in the station area that would only re-introduce a bottleneck that was removed by taking out the access to the bay. Platform 1 could be extended to the north but that would mean remodelling the whole of the up side of the station throat to make it of any use. In turn that would affect the LIP that is still in use and the access to the newly laid depot facilities. I don't see any of that happening, I do see the bay being infilled at some point though.

 

Is that thing still in use?

 

it isn't just the general decrepitude of the set, it's the way the train crew appear to be agency staff with assorted uniforms issued to past franchises, in some cases to completely different people... joking apart, that set is an embarrassment to all concerned

 

The set referred to in the original post that prompted the comment about hired in stock (post #322) was actually referring to a set with a Virgin liveried Power car therefore I doubt it is the hired in one. The VTEC HST's have all been looking tired for a while since DOR and NXEC both ignored them in terms of interior maintenance. Incidentally the EMT liveried set has been split, yesterday I saw a set comprising the EMT 43's, one EMT first class coach, one EMT standard class coach and the rest comprised of Virgin stock. It was working the 07:46 up service from Peterborough to London. Looked quite 'rag tag and bobtail' really.

 

I have travelled on the EMT set in the past and the staff have most certainly not been in an assortment of uniform apart from during the DOR period, it was on all services, and continued for a short while until Virgin issued new uniforms to their staff. I guess staff were unable to replace worn or damaged items so resorted to dragging out their old GNER clothing.

 

EDIT - the EMT power cars are 43064 and 43083 that are in use by VTEC I believe.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Richard E

[rockershovel]

Oh, ok. I haven't used the ECML regularly for quite a long time and my only knowledge of Scottish services is the awkward change at Edinburgh for services to Aberdeen. You'd think someone would have come up with a better solution long ago, but apparently not - I suppose it falls between two franchises and so, is no ones problem; that, or the operators don't really care about travellers who don't really have many alternatives, they will come anyway.

 

Likewise I don't really pay much attention to the kaleidoscope of franchise liveries, but I do tend to use the KX-Leeds service due to its position in the timetable, and this scruffy, run-down and mismatched set had offended my eye on more than one occasion as a result. Being accustomed to working with contract and agency personnel, it looks as though this set makes quite a lot of use of agency staff, which isnt surprising for an external hire of a quite elderly asset. Your latest description makes it sound as though "maximising use of existing assets" is reaching the end of its term, in this case.

Edited May 19, 2016 by rockershovel

[96701]

Looks like VTEC and the RMT are heading for a showdown..........

 

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-east-coast-slammed-for-blatant-provocation/

[Richard E]

Looks like VTEC and the RMT are heading for a showdown..........

 

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-east-coast-slammed-for-blatant-provocation/

Interesting but why do we only hear of these 'problems' from the RMT. Nothing anywhere else, apart from a repudiation from VTEC. It seems as if this is the RMT trying to flex its muscles rightly or wrongly. Don't these guys realise that industrial action will just lead to exactly what they are suggesting is happening.

[cravensdmufan]

I use the ECML a lot, and have noticed a gradual slippage of standards since the Stagecoach/Virgin takeover.

 

To me, the whole operation now has a feeling of cheap and nasty.

 

If they are trying to cut costs to meet their financial commitment to Government, then things can only get worse. Such a shame to see the nation's premier railway line going this way.

[stewartingram]

Look on the bright side the, they may be heading towards handing the keys back, then we get someone else?

(no offence intended to the workers or unions btw)

 

Stewart

[russ p]

Once it's gone over to EMU operation the whole thing will loose any bits of quality it has, those units do not give the impression of a quality railway. They remind me of the proposal back in BR days to make 455s or something look like bullet trains for the aborted theme park at Battersea power station,even down to sliding doors!

Hardly the thing to follow in the footsteps of LNER Pacific's and deltics

[RANGERS]

Look on the bright side the, they may be heading towards handing the keys back, then we get someone else?

(no offence intended to the workers or unions btw)

 

Stewart

Unlikely, the backlash from Government would risk eradicating Virgin/ Stagecoach from every other franchise, the vast majority of which have been run extremely successfully under Virgin/ Stagecoach stewardship, look what happened to National Express when they handed the keys back. I use EMT every day, whilst I give them grief when they get it wrong, it doesn't happen often and on the whole is a reliable and comfortable railway, can't ask for much more than that.

 

Colleagues who use Virgin WC regularly speak highly of it and one who frequents most trunk routes favours Virgin ahead of EMT but reckons both are streets ahead of any other TOC he uses, mostly Virgin EC, Arriva CC, Hull Trains, FGW and Northern.

 

Virgin will be compelled to make the EC franchise work, whatever it takes, Stagecoach have a reputation for managing it but the first year or so hasn't been a good one for anyone and my own experience of VEC after generally good experience with every previous operator on the route, hasn't been good I'm afraid.

[russ p]

Remember it's not really virgin, stagecoach are the majority shareholder .

If Souter takes on the unions he'll be upgrading his knighthood for a peerage

[pete_mcfarlane]

Interesting but why do we only hear of these 'problems' from the RMT. Nothing anywhere else, apart from a repudiation from VTEC. It seems as if this is the RMT trying to flex its muscles rightly or wrongly. Don't these guys realise that industrial action will just lead to exactly what they are suggesting is happening.

 

Basically they're still sulking because the temporary state operation of the East Coast franchise ended (as was always planned) rather than being the start of a reborn BR. 

 

And being cynical, I often wonder about these situations where the Union suddenly starts telling workers that their jobs are at risk. Because that might get quite a few non-union members to join up and start paying money to the union......

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting but why do we only hear of these 'problems' from the RMT. Nothing anywhere else, apart from a repudiation from VTEC. It seems as if this is the RMT trying to flex its muscles rightly or wrongly. Don't these guys realise that industrial action will just lead to exactly what they are suggesting is happening.

 

It was in at least one newspaper a couple of weeks back - see posts 317 and 325 on Page 13 and has been further discussed in this thread since then.

 

Comparison of different operators is I think always going to be highly subjective unless they are either downright bad or outstandingly good.  I haven't had the misfortune to try the current incumbents on the ECML but Hull Trains was, in my direct experience, considerably better than VTEC's immediate predecessors and none of them have been as good as GNER.  On the other hand a past boss of mine back in the 1990s had a low opinion of GNER.  I had a trip on Virgin West Coast last year, the first trip with that operator for a number of years, and I wasn't particularly impressed, the on-train staff weren't bad (but no better than FGW or Hull Trains) but the standard of on-train information was pretty poor and no better than any other operator.  And Virgin on Cross Country simply seemed to slip backwards after about the first 6 months of Voyager operation - the present incumbents on Cross Country are streets ahead of Virgin in my experience.

[Glorious NSE]

Don't know if it's a representative sample or not as I rarely have chance to use the ECML, but I travelled from Edinburgh to KX on Wednesday, the HST set involved had a clean, bright and well maintained interior, the crews were pleasant, and the train was on time all the way. Considering it's 40 year old kit the experience was pretty good.

Having said that - given the last two 'proper' franchises failed to live up to the promises they made when they bid and had to give up, you have to assume that fulfilling the franchise commitments isn't going to be a quick and easy task...

[31A]

Toilets out of order seems to be becoming more common on VTEC trains - the worst example I've come across being on a Saturday morning a month ago on the 0757 York-King's Cross (0655 from Newcastle) which had three out of order between my coach and the adjoining ones!  Whilst I know there are all sort of things that can cause this, even within a short space of time, and I wasn't privy to the actual reasons, this is disappointing given that this was presumably the set's first journey of the day after coming into service from Heaton depot, and was about an hour into it's run.

[2750Papyrus]

Toilets out of order seems to be becoming more common on VTEC trains - the worst example I've come across being on a Saturday morning a month ago on the 0757 York-King's Cross (0655 from Newcastle) which had three out of order between my coach and the adjoining ones!  Whilst I know there are all sort of things that can cause this, even within a short space of time, and I wasn't privy to the actual reasons, this is disappointing given that this was presumably the set's first journey of the day after coming into service from Heaton depot, and was about an hour into it's run.

 

I like the thought of a train with a privy.......

[newbryford]

Apologies if this has been mentioned before:

First group to run a "budget" London-Edinburgh service (presumably with IEPs)

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/vtec-and-firstgroup-granted-east-coast-main-line-paths.html

 

Oh - and the RMT don't like that either...

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-first-group-runing-trains-on-east-coast120516/

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited May 20, 2016 by newbryford

[pete_mcfarlane]

Oh - and the RMT don't like that either...

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-first-group-runing-trains-on-east-coast120516/

 

I like their comment that "now we have two private companies". I count three private companies on the ECML at the moment (VTEC, First, GC) and the recent announcement doesn't change that. 

 

​Clearly the RMT General Secretary is fully up to speed with the current state of open access on the ECML

[Glorious NSE]

The RMT don't like something? Well that makes a change.
 

​Clearly the RMT General Secretary is fully up to speed with the current state of open access on the ECML

Given their earlier linked comment about Virgin East Coast illustrated the story with a Voyager...?

[lmsforever]

The ECML  seems to be a poisoned chalice for any company operating it am I right in thinking that even the LNER was losing money on it seem to remember reading this in the past.

[phil-b259]

Once it's gone over to EMU operation the whole thing will loose any bits of quality it has, those units do not give the impression of a quality railway. They remind me of the proposal back in BR days to make 455s or something look like bullet trains for the aborted theme park at Battersea power station,even down to sliding doors!

Hardly the thing to follow in the footsteps of LNER Pacific's and deltics

 

To be fair VTEC have made it Crystal clear that the DfT procured (and decidedly Spartan interiors) of the IEPs will be significantly enhanced to bring them up to the same or better than the interiors seen in the refurbished HST set shown to the press a few weeks ago.

 

There is also the little mater that the use of the IEP was mandated by the DfT whoever won the franchise - any proposals not to use them would never have made it through the initial bidding process as given the amount of money the DfT / Treasury have spent procuring the things they need to save face by having operators being seen to embrace them.

[phil-b259]

Basically they're still sulking because the temporary state operation of the East Coast franchise ended (as was always planned) rather than being the start of a reborn BR. 

 

And being cynical, I often wonder about these situations where the Union suddenly starts telling workers that their jobs are at risk. Because that might get quite a few non-union members to join up and start paying money to the union......

 

But to an extent their jobs ARE at risk.

 

Lets have a look at the wider picture - the Government has made it clear ever since the McNulty review was published that it expects DOO operation (at least as far as door control is concerned) to be the norm and has been applying considerable pressure on franchise bidders to implement it in recent years.

 

FGW for example got a new management contract style franchise to cover the introduction of the DOO IEPs with no dedicated catering car in the full knowledge that this would antagonise the RMT. Hence guards and catering staff held a series of strikes over the issue - but to no avail as the Government want the issue addressed now so the next franchise can be let with DOO and the no buffet cars issues all sorted by the time they let the next 'proper' franchise.

 

Similarly GTR are expected to use the current short term management contract franchise to push through DOO on most routes, ready for re-franchising in 2018 (possibly being split up again in the process) as a DOO operation - which is what has led to the current industrial action / poor service on Southern.

 

More recently guards on Scotrail are talking of industrial action as the new trains for the Edinburgh - Glasgow electrification project will be DOO operated. I fully expect to see a similar situation occur when the new Northern and TransPennine Express stock arrives, plus there have been rumblings of action on Merseyrail over its plan to procure new stock.

 

The thing is once you remove the need for a 'guard' (or to be precise, someone trained to the current guards level), then the train can still run on time even if the ex guard goes on strike / is ill / is delayed getting to the service due to say late running, etc. As such its easy to see that terms and conditions for ex-guards (even they are still retained as conductors) are a perfect target for those looking to cut costs. This is why, even though Southern have said they will actually be looking to take on more conductors in future (not reducing them), the RMT is opposed to the plans - it totally undermines their bargaining position if a future management decide they do wish to cut numbers in future / not offer a suitable wage increase / alter staff T&Cs

 

Thus the change in status of a guard being a 'must have' for services to run to a 'optional extra' does have serious implications the RMT unions ability to protect its members jobs / terms and conditions in the decades ahead. Unfortunately its a battle that through Westminster politics and increased technical progress they will eventually lose.

Edited May 20, 2016 by phil-b259