Hornby announce SR 58' Maunsell Rebuilt Ex-LSWR Coaches

[Tim Dubya]

Have just done that (except for Weddell Vol 2, which I don't have… a book as rare as rocking horse droppings!)  - no clear answers, unless I have missed something, in which case any info would be gratefully received, Tim.

Mike

 

Sorry Mike, 

 

I've had a quick look through Weddell and he doesn't appear to mention them  There is on pic of a Tri-Composite with a modified brakend but I don't think it's a Maunsell rebuild, just a mod.

 

Yes these books are being sold, on the whole, by total rip merchants, some as much as £1000 on ebay.  I was lucky to get a (shabby) copy on eBay for £35 and then found an almost mint copy in an Oxfam bookshop for £20, so sold the first on (for £1000 - only joking £35).

 

They do turn up occasionally on eBay for a reasonable price.  Although the only current offering is a rip @ £405:99!

 

 

Happy hunting, you should find one if you keep an eye out (and when you're least expecting it).

[Dunsignalling]

Weddell, Vol.2 includes a fleeting reference at the end of the Appendix to Chapter Six, (p.205) but it only relates to the numbering of sets including the 58ft rebuilds.

 

They are also described (though not copiously) in a couple of pages in Chapter 7 of An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, by Mike King (OPC) but that book may be equally hard to find/expensive nowadays. Amazon Marketplace list 9 copies available starting at £58-50.

 

Appendix Two "New Underframes for old coaches" in Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock by David Gould (Oakwood Press) contains the most comprehensive coverage I have found so far. My current copy is the Third Edition dating from 2000 - I don't know if it has been superseded.

 

John 

 

EDIT: I've just had a look at Oakwood's website and their volume is still listed as in print, price £9.95

Edited June 11, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[RFS]

Sorry Mike, 

 

I've had a quick look through Weddell and he doesn't appear to mention them  There is on pic of a Tri-Composite with a modified brakend but I don't think it's a Maunsell rebuild, just a mod.

 

Yes these books are being sold, on the whole, by total rip merchants, some as much as £1000 on ebay.  I was lucky to get a (shabby) copy on eBay for £35 and then found an almost mint copy in an Oxfam bookshop for £20, so sold the first on (for £1000 - only joking £35).

 

They do turn up occasionally on eBay for a reasonable price.  Although the only current offering is a rip @ £405:99!

 

 

Happy hunting, you should find one if you keep an eye out (and when you're least expecting it).

 

Some available here for around £60 - http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=weddell&isbn=0860935558&sts=t&tn=lswr

[Tim Dubya]

Some available here for around £60 - http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=weddell&isbn=0860935558&sts=t&tn=lswr

 

That's more reasonable - I had forgotten about Abe Books.

 

Before I got my copy I searched out some *Model Railway Constructors that had articles containing drawings from vol 2 for the Ironclad coaches I was researching at the time.

 

I suppose if you had to purchase all the scale drawings (Mike King?) it would certainly work out more cost effective to buy the book for £60.

 

Gordon Weddell was an incredible draftsman!

 

 

* I don't know if the Maunsell rebuilds were ever mentioned in MRC but it may be worth searching just in case.

 

  I got mine from eBay and Magazine exchange

Edited June 11, 2016 by Tim Dubya

[sandwich station]

Not really, it's generally accepted that these coaches didn't last long enough to receive BR green, though many were withdrawn c1958 still carrying SR malachite (much re-varnished to keep it intact) but with BR lettering. 

 

 

It is a fact that the Southern regions policy of re-varnishing and touching up paintwork, rather than a complete repaint, means that stock still in Malachite can look very much like BR (S) green in photos dating from the early - mid 50s and modellers should be very careful in assuming that older stock such as these vehicles lived long enough to get a proper repaint in BR(S) green.

 

If that is the case, then why don't Hornby release them as thus? Then there would be a green BR version that is not fictitious.

[Dunsignalling]

If that is the case, then why don't Hornby release them as thus? Then there would be a green BR version that is not fictitious.

Which they might do later; they have just chosen the "safer" option for the first run.

 

Crimson will have been the commonest livery on most of these vehicles from about 1954 to withdrawal - not receiving it was probably an indication of a coach not in the best of condition overall that wasn't expected to last long enough to justify the expense. The first of the 2-sets was withdrawn in 1956 and only one lasted into 1959. 

 

If you are in a hurry, why not just get the SR ones and re-letter them? Any rough patches you need to touch in will be quite prototypical. Those withdrawn still with re-varnished pre-war SR paint in 1956-8 would not have been at all "pristine" or even uniform; the colour may well have drifted about somewhat even on the same vehicle. That will be quite difficult to represent convincingly if Hornby do decide to take it on for production, less so as a personal detailing project.

 

Some of the loose coaches (mainly, if not exclusively 9-compartment thirds) just made it into the early 1960s and an earlier post did point out that a very small number of them did actually get BR green. That suggests they were retained for strengthening purposes for use with other kinds of stock but Hornby don't usually cater for those who want non-matching exceptions. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

A quick look in my books has:

 

April 1954, two LSWR coaches in green, set No not visible, brake ends inward.

 

Summer 1955 one coach in shot, now red, non-brake end leading.

 

June 1958, two coaches, one LSWR all-third in red plus one Maunsell corridor brake composite, brake end outward. The same combination was photographed by Norman Lockett in 1959, and presumably by Ivo Peters whose car is in Norman's shot.

 

By 1960 the coaches all  seem to be cascaded Maunsell corridor stock in green.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Pete

I got out my magnifying glass and counted the door ventilators in another of Norman Lockett's 1959 shots and it came to 10 so the 3rd (2nd) will have been an ex-SECR vehicle by then.

 

However, it won't stop me using the Hornby 9-compartment 3rd as a plausible substitute (more plausible than my Replica Mk.1 Suburban 2nd anyway) until I can get one!

 

The other vehicle pictured is the usual green Maunsell BCK.

 

John

[rovex]

If that is the case, then why don't Hornby release them as thus? Then there would be a green BR version that is not fictitious.

Probably because the uninformed would immediately say 'these were never painted in BR green'. Remember Hornby can't win.

[sandwich station]

If you are in a hurry, why not just get the SR ones and re-letter them? Any rough patches you need to touch in will be quite prototypical. Those withdrawn still with re-varnished pre-war SR paint in 1956-8 would not have been at all "pristine" or even uniform; the colour may well have drifted about somewhat even on the same vehicle. That will be quite difficult to represent convincingly if Hornby do decide to take it on for production, less so as a personal detailing project.

 

John

 

A very good point John.

[Peter Bedding]

Almost a rivet-counter's point, but I assume the appropriate ones will carry Set numbers on their ends. I seem to remember that this point was overlooked with the first release of Maunsell R4 carriages. Either way, Hattons have emailed the forecast delivery dates for those in Southern Green. My Birthday pressie to me. (The Memsahib is buying me a corresponding Adams loco.)

 

PB

[GreenGiraffe22]

Could someone please advise me which of Hornby's releases would have been paired together? I have been trying to make sense of all the formation but I'm not sure which two to order

[olivegreen]

Without wishing to sound unhelpful, read posts 154 and the couple following it on this thread, and also 237 and 244. Relate the Diagram numbers given for the 2-sets to the Hornby 'Rxxxx' numbers on their helpful website, and you'll have the answer. I hesitate to do the latter job as I'm sure to make a mistake somewhere !

[Dunsignalling]

Could someone please advise me which of Hornby's releases would have been paired together? I have been trying to make sense of all the formation but I'm not sure which two to order

The 2-sets were formed of one 8-compartment Brake Third (Diagram 418) and one 6-compartment Lavatory Brake Composite (Diagram 99). 

 

If you want the Crimson ones, the Hornby reference numbers are R.4746 and R.4747 respectively (info taken from Hatton's and Kernow Models websites). 

 

This doesn't tally with the 'New for 2016' page on Hornby's website but I think that on the retailers' sites is more up-to date. 

 

John

 

EDIT: I visited my local dealer earlier today. He rang Hornby who confirmed that the info on their website and in their mini-catalogue is accurate. 

 

If you want a crimson 2-set, the catalogue numbers are R.4746 and R.4748.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[bertiedog]

A minor point. by SR do Hornby mean Southern Railway or Southern Region??

Stephen

[GreenGiraffe22]

Thank you, it'll be the SR Greens for me

[JSpencer]

A minor point. by SR do Hornby mean Southern Railway or Southern Region??

Stephen

 

SR always means Southern Railway except if they make a mistake (which does happen).

 

You might see BR SR instead of BR Southern region.

[Dunsignalling]

Without wishing to sound unhelpful, read posts 154 and the couple following it on this thread, and also 237 and 244. Relate the Diagram numbers given for the 2-sets to the Hornby 'Rxxxx' numbers on their helpful website, and you'll have the answer. I hesitate to do the latter job as I'm sure to make a mistake somewhere !

The difficulty is that the R numbers of the BTL and BCL on Hornby's website (at least so far as the BR crimson models are concerned) are reversed compared with the info shown on retailers' websites.

 

There was some confusion (later clarified) as to what was what at the time of the initial announcements. Retailers' descriptions are presumably based on what they have actually ordered from Margate and as such should be up-to-date. It appears that Hornby's own site has yet to be revised in this respect.

 

John  

 

EDIT: It appears that Hatton's (and other retailers') running numbers and catalogue numbers tally with Hornby's but they have transposed the coach types (Lavatory Brake third and Lavatory Brake composite) in the descriptions. I have today obtained confirmation that the entries in Hornby's own website are correct.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Ian Hargrave]

A minor point. by SR do Hornby mean Southern Railway or Southern Region??

Stephen

That largely depends upon when you were born....

[olivegreen]

The difficulty is that the R numbers of the BTL and BCL on Hornby's website (at least so far as the BR crimson models are concerned) are reversed compared with the info shown on retailers' websites.

 

There was some confusion (later clarified) as to what was what at the time of the initial announcements. Retailers' descriptions are presumably based on what they have actually ordered from Margate and as such should be up-to-date. It appears that Hornby's own site has yet to be revised in this respect.

 

John  

 

All of which is why I said in my post above that I hesitated to relate diagram number to Hornby's model numbers - it's too much of a minefield of potential error !

Mike

[GreenGiraffe22]

I've got the 8 & 6 compartment brakes on pre-order now =D I really like the look of them, they'll go well with my M7.

[SR Chris]

Hmmm...

 

Reading Hornby's latest Engine Shed post and looking the the photo's there and on their website, which are of the actual models as opposed to the artwork still shown on the various retailers sites I postulate that the BR Crimson versions will be:

 

R4746 S 2637 S D99  Eight Compartment Brake Third

R4747 S 2629 S D98  Six Compartment Lavatory Brake Third

R4748 S 6402 S D418 Six Compartment Lavatory Brake Composite

R4749 S 267 S   D31  Nine Compartment Lavatory Third

 

I may be wrong but based on that I've ordered R4746 and R4748 (S2637S and S6402S) which formed Set 43.

 

Sticking my neck out still further R3398 looks to have S2636S and S6401S in it which formed Set 42.

 

Chris

[Tim Dubya]

SR always means Southern Railway except if they make a mistake (which does happen).

 

You might see BR SR instead of BR Southern region.

 

or BR(S) to denote British Railways (Southern Region).

[aussiebrfan]

 

Hmmm...

 

Reading Hornby's latest Engine Shed post and looking the the photo's there and on their website, which are of the actual models as opposed to the artwork still shown on the various retailers sites I postulate that the BR Crimson versions will be:

 

R4746 S 2637 S D99  Eight Compartment Brake Third

R4747 S 2629 S D98  Six Compartment Lavatory Brake Third

R4748 S 6402 S D418 Six Compartment Lavatory Brake Composite

R4749 S 267 S   D31  Nine Compartment Lavatory Third

 

I may be wrong but based on that I've ordered R4746 and R4748 (S2637S and S6402S) which formed Set 43.

 

Sticking my neck out still further R3398 looks to have S2636S and S6401S in it which formed Set 42.

 

Chris

 

 

 

Hi there,

 

I'm confused, I like yourself would like to order the correct combination of coaches to make up a 2-set, however Hattons have R4748 listed as no. S6401S not S6402S! This is obviously incorrect when compared to the Hornby website? When you look at the Lyme Regis pack though one of the coaches is numbered as S6401S!!

Like I said I'm confused, which to be fair is fairly often!  I am Australian after all!

At this this stage I am going to order R4746 and R4748 unless anybody thinks this is incorrect for Set 43.

 

Regards G

[aussiebrfan]

Gday all,

 

I am no longer confused, I think. Appendix 2 in David Gould's Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock (p.145 onwards) had all the answers I needed.

 

Set 43 - 2637 and 6402

 

Set 42 - 2636 and 6401

 

Loose - 2629 and 267

 

Hattons coach numbers for R4748 are definitely incorrect.

 

Regards

Glenn

 

PS, Anyone know why these Set numbers do not appear on the semgonline coach set number listing?

[Dunsignalling]

Gday all,

 

I am no longer confused, I think. Appendix 2 in David Gould's Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock (p.145 onwards) had all the answers I needed.

 

Set 43 - 2637 and 6402

 

Set 42 - 2636 and 6401

 

Loose - 2629 and 267

 

Hattons coach numbers for R4748 are definitely incorrect.

 

Regards

Glenn

 

PS, Anyone know why these Set numbers do not appear on the semgonline coach set number listing?

But 64xx is definitely the correct series for the type of coach.

 

S6401S is correctly listed in the entry for the train pack, R4748 will be S6402S (as per Hornby's own site) but the Hatton's entry incorrectly describes it as a brake third, when it's a brake composite. 

 

John

Edited June 14, 2016 by Dunsignalling