Hornby announce SR 58' Maunsell Rebuilt Ex-LSWR Coaches

[John M Upton]

Did any of the diagram of coach produced by Hornby ever see any form of Departmental service by any chance?  I fancy something a little different...

[Limpley Stoker]

When this was uploaded to the old RMweb in 2009 showing Northstar Design brass coaches, who would have thought they would one day be available from a plastic RTR ,manufacturer...

 

WEB LSWR Northstar stock.jpg

Is this a push -pull set ?-- and if so are any of the Hornby brakes suitable for conversion to a driving car ?

[coachmann]

Is this a push -pull set ?-- and if so are any of the Hornby brakes suitable for conversion to a driving car ?

I don't think so. The driving trailers did not have lavatories (Dia.420 and dia. 428). BR did create driving trailer from lavatory stock circa 1957, but I think the lavs were lavs were stripped and seating put in. I know little about this LSWR stock.

Edited August 12, 2016 by coachmann

[SRman]

I received my four BR crimson coaches yesterday and ran them earlier today. I have formed the 2-car set 43 and, after a few initial photos, decided that they could be closer coupled. I used a couple of Kadee couplings with their dropper arms cut off, as the set will remain semi-permanently coupled and should have no need for any auto-uncoupling. First runs were with M7 0-4-4T 30051 and a van C.






Kadees now fitted:

... and in formation after closer coupling, this time with the addition of a Maunsell open 3rd, with 700 class 0-6-0 30693 hauling the rake.






And a couple of short video clips of the trains in action, firstly with 30051, then with 30693. 2 HAL units 2694 (still without its numbers applied) and 2639 can be seen passing in the opposite direction in the latter clip.

 

All photos and videos were taken on my new phone, an HTC X9. I'm still trying to get the best out of the camera but need to read the manual to see if I can override some of the settings. As you can see, the current results are a mixed bag for quality and clarity.

Edited August 13, 2016 by SRman

[Robin Brasher]

Is this a push -pull set ?-- and if so are any of the Hornby brakes suitable for conversion to a driving car ?

It would be worth looking at An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock by Mike King to see if any of the Hornby brakes can be converted to a driving car. In the absence of any Southern pull-push sets that predate the Maunsell pull-push sets it would be worth having a go and I would be interested to see the outcome. British Railways did remove the lavatories when they converted the Maunsell coaches into pull-push sets.

[olivegreen]

I don't think so. The driving trailers did not have lavatories (Dia.420 and dia. 428). BR did create driving trailer from lavatory stock circa 1957, but I think the lavs were lavs were stripped and seating put in. I know little about this LSWR stock.

 

Were they drop and runs before that, then?

 

[Limpley Stoker]

It would be worth looking at An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock by Mike King to see if any of the Hornby brakes can be converted to a driving car. In the absence of any Southern pull-push sets that predate the Maunsell pull-push sets it would be worth having a go and I would be interested to see the outcome. British Railways did remove the lavatories when they converted the Maunsell coaches into pull-push sets.

The 8 compartment brake 3rd could be converted then, having no lavatories - I will have to get the book which hopefully has some illustrations and drawings.

[Acky]

Thanks to Robin Brasher for his input and to Wickham Green for his probable outcome!

[roythebus]

This was surprisingly common back in the day - the Bluebell have a ex LSWR non corridor brake coach that was originally a 2nd / 3rd composite where the two second class compartments each had access to a separate lavatory - the door to the lavatory effectively taking up one of the seating positions in the compartment. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1520.html. They also have a ex SECR birdcage Brake with a similar setup - again this was built as a 2nd / 3rd composite http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/birdcage/index.html

 

Neither coach has had the toilets returned to use during the restoration though.

 

Some companies did build coaches with a corridor within the coach so as to access a lavatory - the 2BIL EMUs and one of the coaches in the 2HAL having this feature for example. On the LNER Gresley, and later Thompson built suburban composite coaches with two toilets in the middle each linked to the 3rd or the 1st class compartments n- as seen on the Hornby models

 

Toilets on restored coaches can no longer be used believe it or not. We had this problem on the K&ESR with the restored Birdcage brake. Basically anything that has been out of use more than I think 10 years is now classified as "new build" and needs a retention toilet. New vehicles are not allowed to deposit toilet waste on the track. Coaches that have seen use have grandfather rights to retain the right to drop turds on unsuspecting firemen coupling up the loco..

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Coaches that have seen use have grandfather rights to retain the right to drop turds on unsuspecting firemen coupling up the loco..

 

I pity the poor fireman in that scenario.  In order to have aforesaid turd dropped upon him the train (and therefore the loco) would have had to travelled at least some distance from the expected stationary position anticipated during coupling

[coachmann]

A recent copy of the quarterly magazine from the Llangollen Railway does indeed touch on this subject. Signs are to be posted in carriage lavs requesting that they not be flushed in stations. We wouldn't at one time but today's society is obviously not used to considering such niceties. Might be better to give them something they understand like a bare room and a stack of doggy bags that they can load and stuff in their pockets....    

[Robin Brasher]

Mike Wild has written a review of the BR crimson coaches on page 74 of the September 2016 Hornby Magazine. This has some excellent photographs of the models.

 

My only criticism of the coaches is that the lavatory windows have been painted white whereas plate 129 on page 120 of An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches by Mike King shows that the lavatory windows were clear and made of frosted glass. I am surprised that Hornby has not reproduced these as it has modelled the frosted glass correctly on the Maunsell pull-push coaches.

[railroadbill]

Toilets on restored coaches can no longer be used believe it or not. We had this problem on the K&ESR with the restored Birdcage brake. Basically anything that has been out of use more than I think 10 years is now classified as "new build" and needs a retention toilet. New vehicles are not allowed to deposit toilet waste on the track. Coaches that have seen use have grandfather rights to retain the right to drop turds on unsuspecting firemen coupling up the loco..

I traveled from Paddington to Swansea last weekend on a 125, a type of train I hadn't been on for many years. One reason for trip was to travel on one before the GW electrification comes (eventually). While the coaches were comfortable having been refurbed, I was rather surprised to find they still had "conventional" flush toilets.  So presumably being 40 years old or so, they definitely have grandfather rights.   

 

 

 

And see here.(about 4 paragraphs down) ...   

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-34085270

Edited August 14, 2016 by railroadbill

[TheSignalEngineer]

Toilets on restored coaches can no longer be used believe it or not. We had this problem on the K&ESR with the restored Birdcage brake. Basically anything that has been out of use more than I think 10 years is now classified as "new build" and needs a retention toilet. New vehicles are not allowed to deposit toilet waste on the track. Coaches that have seen use have grandfather rights to retain the right to drop turds on unsuspecting firemen coupling up the loco..

If trains are formed in the traditional way with the guard's compartment outwards at each end it should be fairly safe for the fireman to get down for coupling up. The biggest problem would be if a Mk1 SO were marshalled at the end with the toilets outwards.

[roythebus]

If trains are formed in the traditional way with the guard's compartment outwards at each end it should be fairly safe for the fireman to get down for coupling up. The biggest problem would be if a Mk1 SO were marshalled at the end with the toilets outwards.

 

Yes, I quite agree, but the law is that all new stock has to have retention toilets after a certain date, and new includes anything old that hasn't been in service for 20 years pr whatever it is. I'd have to look on the old KESR website to find the details.

[Dunsignalling]

I traveled from Paddington to Swansea last weekend on a 125, a type of train I hadn't been on for many years. One reason for trip was to travel on one before the GW electrification comes (eventually). While the coaches were comfortable having been refurbed, I was rather surprised to find they still had "conventional" flush toilets.  So presumably being 40 years old or so, they definitely have grandfather rights.   

 

 

 

 

Off topic but there are other changes taking effect over the next few years on "the big railway" regarding wheelchair access, which will involve significant modification to HST stock before it re-enters service in Scotland. As I understand it, retention toilets are to be fitted as part of the same programme. 

 

John

[Wickham Green]

I pity the poor fireman in that scenario.  In order to have aforesaid turd dropped upon him the train (and therefore the loco) would have had to travelled at least some distance from the expected stationary position anticipated during coupling

You're refering to of course ........ sorry, could't find a British one ! ( Interesting the word 'station' is used rather than 'depot' you'd expect in the 'States ..... pronounced dee-po, of course ! ) 

[Graham_Muz]

Is this a push -pull set ?-- and if so are any of the Hornby brakes suitable for conversion to a driving car ?

 

 

I don't think so. The driving trailers did not have lavatories (Dia.420 and dia. 428). BR did create driving trailer from lavatory stock circa 1957, but I think the lavs were lavs were stripped and seating put in. I know little about this LSWR stock.

 

 

It would be worth looking at An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock by Mike King to see if any of the Hornby brakes can be converted to a driving car. In the absence of any Southern pull-push sets that predate the Maunsell pull-push sets it would be worth having a go and I would be interested to see the outcome. British Railways did remove the lavatories when they converted the Maunsell coaches into pull-push sets.

 

 

The 8 compartment brake 3rd could be converted then, having no lavatories - I will have to get the book which hopefully has some illustrations and drawings.

Some of the loose coaches were latervPull Push fitted and ending up in number of Pull Push sets as replacement coaches as trailer cars rather then driving cars.

 

I believe there were two diagram 31 and six diagram 97s so converted.

[Robin Brasher]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of the loose coaches were latervPull Push fitted and ending up in number of Pull Push sets as replacement coaches as trailer cars rather then driving cars.

 

I believe there were two diagram 31 and six diagram 97s so converted.

Thank you for bringing us back on topic.

[Wickham Green]

The 8 compartment brake 3rd could be converted then, having no lavatories - I will have to get the book which hopefully has some illustrations and drawings.

Further to Graham's comment's Mike's Pull & Push bible will show you that there were three similar Driving Trailers built on second-hand frames but : -

1) two used former 'Ironclad chassis so had truss-rod underfames on very different bogies and were a foot shorter ....

2) had fully-panelled driving / brake compartments ....

3) had a totally different arrangement of passenger compartments ............... a MAJOR cut 'n' shut job would be required to produce these from a Hornby oroginal !

[phil-b259]

Yes, I quite agree, but the law is that all new stock has to have retention toilets after a certain date, and new includes anything old that hasn't been in service for 20 years pr whatever it is. I'd have to look on the old KESR website to find the details.

 

Can you provide proof on here please because it all depends on how the term 'new' is legally interpreted. Just because the KESR have taken a certain stance does not mean that position accurately reflects the legal situation. Moves by the RSSB / ORR / NR  to stop trains discharging onto the track have only refereed to the situation on the national rail network - and are designed to ensure that the likes of any HSTs still retained in the post IEP era get retention tanks as part of the work to make them compliant with disability regs by 2020

 

But to return to the term 'new' - in general, the law allows for the replacement of parts due to wear and tear (which includes being stored out of service on a siding for decades) without changing the status of the vehicle. It only becomes a 'new' vehicle if it is substantially altered or is constructed from scratch. Thus Tornado is a 'new' build under law but Flying Scotsman is not - even though it has received extensive repairs.

 

In coach terms a 'new' build would be constructing a completely new body on a bare underframe for example, restoration - including replacement of most of the woodwork or rebuilding the interiors to reverse a departmental conversion does not make it a new 'vehicle'. A conversion from one design to another is a more difficult matter - though of the bulk of the coach is untouched then there is a very good case for saying the vehicle itself in not 'new'

[Limpley Stoker]

Some of the loose coaches were latervPull Push fitted and ending up in number of Pull Push sets as replacement coaches as trailer cars rather then driving cars.I believe there were two diagram 31 and six diagram 97s so converted.

Thank you for that information, I will shelve my plans for ruining a perfectly good model !

 

Mike

[Limpley Stoker]

Further to Graham's comment's Mike's Pull & Push bible will show you that there were three similar Driving Trailers built on second-hand frames but : -

1) two used former 'Ironclad chassis so had truss-rod underfames on very different bogies and were a foot shorter ....

2) had fully-panelled driving / brake compartments ....

3) had a totally different arrangement of passenger compartments ............... a MAJOR cut 'n' shut job would be required to produce these from a Hornby oroginal !

Thank you for that - major surgery is not on my agenda, but perhaps somebody might fill that niche with a RTR model of a driving trailer- based on any of the pregrouping panelled stock.

 

Mike

[bertiedog]

The Green SR set are now lighted with a constant brightness circuit, all LED lit. It does show the window glazing edge mouldings could be a bit thinner, as it picks up a ring of light around the edge a bit.

 

The interior is all fitted out with a selection of passengers, posters and signs etc.,

 

Bogies were modified to have one wheel earthed to the axle, and pickup via a .5mm brass strip glued and screwed to the inside of the plastic bogie side, with new pin point bearing holes in the brass. The axle were shortened a bit to get them in to place, the brass then being connected to the electronics and large value capacitor that retains power for about 4/5 minutes.

 

The set can be flashed with up to12 volts to initially turn on the lights, before being coupled to a loco. A reed switch and neo magnet cuts off the lights for daylight running, hidden completely on the underside of the floor within a seat unit.

 

A small query, is the red realistic on the red versions it looks very matt and a bit translucent in some digital shots, whilst the green is very solid in colour. I have not seen any red ones in local shops as yet.

 

Stephen

[Budgie]

The Green SR set are now lighted with a constant brightness circuit, all LED lit. It does show the window glazing edge mouldings could be a bit thinner, as it picks up a ring of light around the edge a bit.

 

The interior is all fitted out with a selection of passengers, posters and signs etc.,

Would you like to post some pictures?