Hornby announce SR 58' Maunsell Rebuilt Ex-LSWR Coaches

[Dunsignalling]

Am I the only person in the world that likes vehicles that are not free running? I'll try mine later today and report.

"Not (too) free running" is one thing. Nobody wants vehicles to run away on their own.

 

"Why does my Kernow O2 struggle with these two when it pulls five corridor Maunsells without difficulty?" is altogether another. 

 

John

Edited September 23, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

At the Radial trials at the first floor of the stables. Godlingston Manor, Swanage the maximum load for the Hornby Radial was six ex LSWR coaches compared with six Hornby Maunsells and five Bachmann Bulleids. The maximum load for the Oxfordrail Radial was four ex LSWR coaches compared with six Hornby Maunsells. This does not present a serious problem to me as I am only running two to four coaches with the Radials. It does mean that the Oxfordrail Radial is operating at full capacity with four ex LSWR coaches so it may shorten the life of the motor and the gears.

 

When reviewing rolling stock I would like the magazines to mention their free running ability and whether they are prone to derailments. Often this will be of academic interest as the rolling stock will have sold out long before people are able to see the review. 

[Ian Hargrave]

Just as a matter of interest, which of yours is the stiffer pull?

 

In my case it's the lavatory brake compo and, whilst fitting the Romfords has improved matters, it's still not as free-running as the brake third.

 

John

I think it's the other way round.I'll try later and post results.Why would anyone not want stock to be free running?

[Edwardian]

There really shouldn't be free-running issues or the need to re-wheel when paying for a full-price modern-standard RTR release.

 

What a drag!

[Ian Hargrave]

If this is generally the case,maybe we should take the issue up with Hornby ? Question....could it perhaps be argued that the bogies are 'not fit for purpose' and thus be a case of replacement bogies all round from Hornby ? Did not his happen recently with their GW B set ?

[Dunsignalling]

There really shouldn't be free-running issues or the need to re-wheel when paying for a full-price modern-standard RTR release.

 

What a drag!

I completely agree, but Ian was asking for suggestions and I offered what I had found to work.

 

I re-wheel much of my stock, usually with Gibsons which, on these coaches made no improvement. If anything, they made things worse, which has never happened before!

 

That, and the fact that some of these coaches are clearly better/worse than others (even after a wheel-swap), are the main factors that make me think the issue stems from inconsistent bogie moulding quality rather than the Hornby wheels themselves.

 

John

Edited September 23, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

If this is generally the case,maybe we should take the issue up with Hornby ? Question....could it perhaps be argued that the bogies are 'not fit for purpose' and thus be a case of replacement bogies all round from Hornby ? Did not his happen recently with their GW B set ?

 

I suspect that you should.  Clearly from the reports they are not performing as well as equivalent vehicles, so are demonstrably defective in comparison.  Quality control seems virtually non-existent and we live in a wasteful world in which for manufacturers replacement is preferable to taking the time to check it is right in the first place. 

 

The raising the issue collectively would be harder to ignore than isolated individual complaints.

[Edwardian]

I completely agree, but Ian was asking for suggestions and I offered what I had found to work.

 

I re-wheel much of my stock, usually with Gibsons which, on these coaches made no improvement. If anything, they made things worse, which has never happened before!

 

That, and the fact that some of these coaches are clearly better/worse than others, are the main factors that make me think the issue stems from inconsistent bogie moulding quality rather than the Hornby wheels themselves.

 

John

 

Indeed, John, you may choose to re-wheel, but you should not have to do so simply in order to achieve an acceptable level of performance of a standard with other modern RTR coaches.

[Edwardian]

P.S.  While I think Robin has done a smashing job on the repaints to LSW livery, if you're content with a non-lav. branch set, the old Triang clerestories are an easier and vastly cheaper alternative. In response to someone considering re-painting the Triangs as LSWR coaches in the LSWR M7 topic, I had a bit of a trawl and came up with this:

 

If you are prepared to cut and shut (and build just 3 incy-wincy sections of side(!)) you can use the Triangs to form a pukka branch set for your Radial and M7.

 

Your post prompted me to return to Volume 1, as I had a feeling that the Triangs would work best as short 1890s bogie coaches.  I know that the Triangs as LSW stock is not a new dodge, but I've not looked into the possibilities before, so it's new to me!

 

May I start by giving you three pieces of good news:

•One problem you have with the Triangs is that there is nothing helpful for representing the lavatory compartments that seem to have been so relatively plentiful in SW non-corridor stock - but I have identified 3 lavless prototypes that work together.

•Further good news is that the panel style is consistent with SW practice.  For instance, the waist panels are at the same height, and Third and Second Class compartment spacings are a reasonable match.

•In fact, as I have just started trying to convert Triangs into pukka GW Van Thirds, I assure you, it looks easier to make a LSW branch set than it does to turn the coaches into anything resembling a GW diagram!

And one piece of bad:

•You would need 8' Fox bogies.  Mailcoach produced plastic ones.  They are ostensibly available separately from the Cooperdaft website.  Good luck with that.  247 Developments once upon a time produced white-metal ones, but I believe the new management is still looking into what bogies they may be able to obtain (they don't have the moulds).

 

Back to the coaches.  In 1909, the SW took a number of 42' Thirds and 45' Tri-Composites dating from the early 1890s and converted them to Brake Thirds and Brake Compos respectively.  They were formed in pairs for branch work.  Some had an arc roof, and some the more recent semi-elliptical (like the Roxey coaches).  The pairs had matching roof profiles.

 

One of the arc roof sets is pictured at Lyme Regis, nicely in time for your Radial to arrive in 1914.  I have not researched the branch, and am not the person to tell you what coaching stock ran on it, but judging from the picture they did have one of the sets from circa 1909.  

 

(1) The Brake Third.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach.  The Third Class compartment spacings are a good match and you have enough of them.  The double luggage doors and 3 blind panels, ditto. The bit in between (3 blind panels, projection/ducket and Guard's door) you cut out and discard.  Replace it with a wider SW style ducket and a narrow vertical strip of blind panelling. The resulting coach is a little shorter that the Triang.  If modelling the arc roof, I suggest the Ratio Midland Suburban coaches have ends and sides that are likely to be of a similar profile (but I have not checked).

 

(2) The Brake Composite.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach and 1 non-brake coach. The brake end is exactly like the Brake Third: End section of your Triang brake plus the narrow panel and ducket section you will need to build.  You will find that the Triang non-brake coach has compartments that work well for Second Class.  To reproduce the next 4 compartments (Second, First, First, Second) just take 2 pairs of the Triang compartments and add a thin sliver between them to give you the additional width between the 2 First Class compartments.  Then add a Third Class compartment from your Triang brake coach.

 

That is all you need do.  And, I suggest, even Hornby's M7 could pull it!

 

Weddell says that later, these sets were often strengthened by inserting a 48' Third in between, though the only photographs he shows of this arrangement date from Southern days.  These Thirds date from 1894 and have the semi-elliptical roof profile. Weddell has 2 photos from Southern days.  One shows the Third inserted between an arc-roofed pair, and the other between a semi-elliptical-roofed pair.

 

You will guess that this conversion involves compartments from 2 Triang brake coaches in order to make up the 8 compartments you need.

 

Certainly, for me, second-hand Triangs at no more than £10 a pop are preferable to this latest expensive release of limited utility.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Edwardian

[chris45lsw]

P.S.  While I think Robin has done a smashing job on the repaints to LSW livery, if you're content with a non-lav. branch set, the old Triang clerestories are an easier and vastly cheaper alternative. In response to someone considering re-painting the Triangs as LSWR coaches in the LSWR M7 topic, I had a bit of a trawl and came up with this:

 

If you are prepared to cut and shut (and build just 3 incy-wincy sections of side(!)) you can use the Triangs to form a pukka branch set for your Radial and M7.

 

Your post prompted me to return to Volume 1, as I had a feeling that the Triangs would work best as short 1890s bogie coaches.  I know that the Triangs as LSW stock is not a new dodge, but I've not looked into the possibilities before, so it's new to me!

 

May I start by giving you three pieces of good news:

•One problem you have with the Triangs is that there is nothing helpful for representing the lavatory compartments that seem to have been so relatively plentiful in SW non-corridor stock - but I have identified 3 lavless prototypes that work together.

•Further good news is that the panel style is consistent with SW practice.  For instance, the waist panels are at the same height, and Third and Second Class compartment spacings are a reasonable match.

•In fact, as I have just started trying to convert Triangs into pukka GW Van Thirds, I assure you, it looks easier to make a LSW branch set than it does to turn the coaches into anything resembling a GW diagram!

And one piece of bad:

•You would need 8' Fox bogies.  Mailcoach produced plastic ones.  They are ostensibly available separately from the Cooperdaft website.  Good luck with that.  247 Developments once upon a time produced white-metal ones, but I believe the new management is still looking into what bogies they may be able to obtain (they don't have the moulds).

 

Back to the coaches.  In 1909, the SW took a number of 42' Thirds and 45' Tri-Composites dating from the early 1890s and converted them to Brake Thirds and Brake Compos respectively.  They were formed in pairs for branch work.  Some had an arc roof, and some the more recent semi-elliptical (like the Roxey coaches).  The pairs had matching roof profiles.

 

One of the arc roof sets is pictured at Lyme Regis, nicely in time for your Radial to arrive in 1914.  I have not researched the branch, and am not the person to tell you what coaching stock ran on it, but judging from the picture they did have one of the sets from circa 1909.  

 

(1) The Brake Third.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach.  The Third Class compartment spacings are a good match and you have enough of them.  The double luggage doors and 3 blind panels, ditto. The bit in between (3 blind panels, projection/ducket and Guard's door) you cut out and discard.  Replace it with a wider SW style ducket and a narrow vertical strip of blind panelling. The resulting coach is a little shorter that the Triang.  If modelling the arc roof, I suggest the Ratio Midland Suburban coaches have ends and sides that are likely to be of a similar profile (but I have not checked).

 

(2) The Brake Composite.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach and 1 non-brake coach. The brake end is exactly like the Brake Third: End section of your Triang brake plus the narrow panel and ducket section you will need to build.  You will find that the Triang non-brake coach has compartments that work well for Second Class.  To reproduce the next 4 compartments (Second, First, First, Second) just take 2 pairs of the Triang compartments and add a thin sliver between them to give you the additional width between the 2 First Class compartments.  Then add a Third Class compartment from your Triang brake coach.

 

That is all you need do.  And, I suggest, even Hornby's M7 could pull it!

 

Weddell says that later, these sets were often strengthened by inserting a 48' Third in between, though the only photographs he shows of this arrangement date from Southern days.  These Thirds date from 1894 and have the semi-elliptical roof profile. Weddell has 2 photos from Southern days.  One shows the Third inserted between an arc-roofed pair, and the other between a semi-elliptical-roofed pair.

 

You will guess that this conversion involves compartments from 2 Triang brake coaches in order to make up the 8 compartments you need.

 

Certainly, for me, second-hand Triangs at no more than £10 a pop are preferable to this latest expensive release of limited utility.

The two car 'branch line' sets of 45ft BC and 42ft BT were the typical Lyme Regis branch train until the 58ft sets 42-46 were created in 1936.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[chris45lsw]

The two car 'branch line' sets of 45ft BC and 42ft BT were the typical Lyme Regis branch train until the 58ft sets 42-46 were created in 1936.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

A further thought.  I don't know whether they're still available but Roxey Mouldings used to make white metal LSWR guards' duckets.  They came in 2ft 6in and 3ft wide versions - you need the narrower one for the 45/42ft 2-sets.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[Edwardian]

A further thought.  I don't know whether they're still available but Roxey Mouldings used to make white metal LSWR guards' duckets.  They came in 2ft 6in and 3ft wide versions - you need the narrower one for the 45/42ft 2-sets.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

 

 

The two car 'branch line' sets of 45ft BC and 42ft BT were the typical Lyme Regis branch train until the 58ft sets 42-46 were created in 1936.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

 

Thank is helpful, thanks.

 

My assumption is that one of the arc-roof 1909 pairs went to the branch more or less straight away.  If so, the set is likely to span the operation of both O2s, introduced in 1906, and the Radials, from 1913.  

 

I am guessing that the Radials would have been in Drummond livery by that stage.  I confess that I have not researched the point, so I do not know which 415s went there in 1913 and, therefore, which builder/variation, but there must be a reasonable prospect of converting and repainting a Hornby Radial to suit. 

 

I do not know which O2s served on the line and it is not a class I have studied either, so I do not know whether the Kernow model can be back-dated to its pre-WW1 condition.

 

For the Grouping Era modeller, I suggest that this is a very useful pair that could be combined with a 48' Third, an even easier Triang conversion.  Potentially, then, your olive green O2s, Radials and M7s need not be forced to skulk solely in late Thirties; suddenly another 13 years of sunny West Country summers opens up for you!   

 

A pair, or trio, of these coaches would have allowed Hornby to support their M7 and Radial from pre-WW1 pre-Grouping to 1936.  That might strike some as a better choice, but, Hornby only ever tools for the BR modeller.  Shame.  

Edited September 23, 2016 by Edwardian

[Ian Hargrave]

I think it's the other way round.I'll try later and post results.Why would anyone not want stock to be free running?

  Yes,it's the other in my case.Swapped the two around and haulage with the O2 is marginally better but still disappointing.More than a pair is a no no. A Hornby M7 is a big improvement with the twin set and it doesn't struggle.Still can't see a way of easing the wheel sets to make them free running.One other area to look at is the swing in the nem coupling hanger which might also be causing an amount of drag. on curves...not as supple as I would like.The Adams Radial,as expected ,is ok but is better with its normal rake of  Maunsell open,Maunsell corridor brake and 64' Mark one suburban.They need to sort this before the Lyme Regis Branch Set is released,I think

 

I also indulged in a rake of SR green 4 in all ( one of each ). Checked the wheel sets first......marginally better but not a lot t.b.h.Tried a variety of SR locos in haulage test. Hornby T9's (2) handled the four well,traction tyres helping (shock,horror ). Then my Olive Green M7....totally useless,couldn't move it at all.Next,Bachmann N 1860in black. This had no problem,neither did the E4 tank in olive green.Hornby S15 (new) struggled at first but soon got into its stride and was very much in control as you would expect.Lastly,Bulleid BB Manston in sunshine. ...smooth as you wish.

 

From this it might be concluded that these coaches are ok in small rakes and not with four coupled tank engines....and the much-heralded H is on its way it appears. The cry is freedom....for wheelsets and bogie design.

[toboldlygo]

  Yes,it's the other in my case.Swapped the two around and haulage with the O2 is marginally better but still disappointing.More than a pair is a no no. A Hornby M7 is a big improvement with the twin set and it doesn't struggle.Still can't see a way of easing the wheel sets to make them free running.One other area to look at is the swing in the nem coupling hanger which might also be causing an amount of drag. on curves...not as supple as I would like.The Adams Radial,as expected ,is ok but is better with its normal rake of  Maunsell open,Maunsell corridor brake and 64' Mark one suburban.They need to sort this before the Lyme Regis Branch Set is released,I think

 

I also indulged in a rake of SR green 4 in all ( one of each ). Checked the wheel sets first......marginally better but not a lot t.b.h.Tried a variety of SR locos in haulage test. Hornby T9's (2) handled the four well,traction tyres helping (shock,horror ). Then my Olive Green M7....totally useless,couldn't move it at all.Next,Bachmann N 1860in black. This had no problem,neither did the E4 tank in olive green.Hornby S15 (new) struggled at first but soon got into its stride and was very much in control as you would expect.Lastly,Bulleid BB Manston in sunshine. ...smooth as you wish.

 

From this it might be concluded that these coaches are ok in small rakes and not with four coupled tank engines....and the much-heralded H is on its way it appears. The cry is freedom....for wheelsets and bogie design.

 

I wonder if the old trick with screeching Hornby 08 Shunter might work on these coaches - a small amount of T-Cut on each axle pinpoint and leave to run around the layout for half an hour in each direction (being hauled by something non-prototypical of course).

[Ian Hargrave]

I wonder if the old trick with screeching Hornby 08 Shunter might work on these coaches - a small amount of T-Cut on each axle pinpoint and leave to run around the layout for half an hour in each direction (being hauled by something non-prototypical of course).

Getting the wheelsets out would...in my case at least ( old blunder fingers )..,probably cause trauma to the bogies and wheelsets.

[JimHearne]

I wonder if the old trick with screeching Hornby 08 Shunter might work on these coaches - a small amount of T-Cut on each axle pinpoint and leave to run around the layout for half an hour in each direction (being hauled by something non-prototypical of course).

 

A job for these ?

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DCDCF-BR2

 

DCC Concepts bearing reamers.

 

Jim

[No Decorum]

A job for these ?

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DCDCF-BR2

 

DCC Concepts bearing reamers.

 

Jim

The same idea occurred to me. Worth a try.

[toboldlygo]

Getting the wheelsets out would...in my case at least ( old blunder fingers )..,probably cause trauma to the bogies and wheelsets.

 

A little t-cut on the point of a cocktail stick dabbed around the wheel-sets/axle-box interface in situe, should do the job. No need to do you own impression of Cashmore's scrapyard

[bigherb]

Just checked mine in each case it was caused by the brake shoes rubbing on the wheels, pulling them off allowed the wheels to spin freely. I didn't mind anyway it gave the coaches a bit of inertia.

[John M Upton]

My pair run absolutely fine!!

[GreenGiraffe22]

I took one pair of wheels out of the troublesome bogie, they were pretty well wedged in there and removing them caused at least two bits of plastic to break off... Ooops.

[Edwardian]

My pair run absolutely fine!!

 

Too much information

[TheSignalEngineer]

By the highly scientific method of tilting the photo plank with as-new coaches chosen at random for comparison I got the following results.

 

• Dapol Lav Brake kit - bogies are so slack with the included wheels that it will run away if you blow on it.
• Bachmann Mk1 RU - rolled with a 12mm wedge
• Hornby Gresley BG - 15mm wedge
• BR Maunsell 58' Set 43 BCK - 30mm wedge
• BR Maunsell 58' other coaches - 18mm to 25mm wedges

 

My overall conclusion is that the Maunsell stock is heavier running when new, the Set 43 BCK particularly so. The best runner of the Maunsells in the Finger Flick test was the Diag 98 Brake, but this still only made about half the distance of the Bachmann RU. The Dapol kit did not perform well in this test as there was too much rock'n'roll on the bogies to get a consistent result..

.

[Guest]

After extensive   testing, its the bogies on my three, swapped wheels between the 3 coaches and with Maunsell corridor wheels, sooooohhhhhhhhhhh, with the coaches that stick most, it does nor matter what wheels are in the results are the same.  That includes using wheels from the Maunsell corridors. 

 

Put the wheels from these 58ft coaches into the corridors and all runs fine.

 

Will contact Hornby as I bought direct from them, however after repainting to BR SR green that may be an issue.  Have'nt tried the 'T' cut trick yet.

[Dunsignalling]

The same idea occurred to me. Worth a try.

Unfortunately, the underside of the bogie moulding is very close to the axle and all these clean-up gadgets seem to be too thick to clear - my "Ed's Tool" is anyway.

 

John

 

Edit: I have belatedly realised that the rubber thumb-wheel can be removed and, without it, the tool is just small enough to go into the bogie. Job done.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Dunsignalling