Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

[Chas Levin]

Ha - now you're toying with us Mike: I've heard of three-wheeled cars, but never a three-wheeled steam loco! 

 

Very interesting though to learn how three-wheeled operation affects the beams. The workings of compensation fascinate me; I've had comparatively small experience so far but plan to gain a lot more...

[Worsdell forever]

Nice to see it as an unfitted loco, I deliberately did my class C as unfitted when I rebuilt it, everyone assumes they were 'mixed traffic' engines but as built they were designated 'mineral engines'.

 

I do think though it will be a bit wobbly as it is, if not, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, it will be a shame this economy couldn't have been taken up by the railways back in the day. 

[KeithHC]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Ha - now you're toying with us Mike: I've heard of three-wheeled cars, but never a three-wheeled steam loco! 

 

Very interesting though to learn how three-wheeled operation affects the beams. The workings of compensation fascinate me; I've had comparatively small experience so far but plan to gain a lot more...

I hope it’s going to be painted a bright yellow when it was sold to Trotters Independent Traders…………

 

Now where is my hat and coat………..

 

Keith

[ArthurK]

The GA that  I have described it as "Compound Goods Engine"

 

ArthurK

[Chas Levin]

14 hours ago, KeithHC said:

I hope it’s going to be painted a bright yellow when it was sold to Trotters Independent Traders…………

 

Now where is my hat and coat………..

 

Keith

A camel hair coat and a tweed flat cap, I trust?

 

 

(Sorry Mike, couldn't resist!)

[mikemeg]

17 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Ha - now you're toying with us Mike: I've heard of three-wheeled cars, but never a three-wheeled steam loco! 

 

Very interesting though to learn how three-wheeled operation affects the beams. The workings of compensation fascinate me; I've had comparatively small experience so far but plan to gain a lot more...

 

Chas,

 

Almost all of Arthur's kits make use of compensating beams, though I do need to verify the eight coupled locos as to that statement. Certainly on the six coupled locos, the middle and rear driving wheelsets can use this arrangement, with the front driving wheelset being 'pivoted' on a centrally located beam which bears on the front driving axle. The four coupled locos simply use the compensating beams on both driving wheelsets.

 

The vertical movement allowed, at each end of the compensating beam depends on the horn guides and axleboxes used, but probably needs to be no more than 1.0 mm in total, which should be adequate to accommodate the inequalities in most trackwork.

 

All of the kits can, however, be built as rigid chassis' and one piece coupling rod etchings are included for this as an alternative to the articulated coupling rods. Where springing is preferred to the use of compensating beams, then Continuous Springy Beams (CSB's) can be used.

 

For horn guides and axleboxes I only have experience of the High Level products though I know that other suppliers may use slightly different approaches to the provision of the horn guides on 'sliding axleboxes' i.e. Brassmaster, Alan Gibson, David Bradwell etc.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by mikemeg

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, mikemeg said:

Chas,

 

Almost all of Arthur's kits make use of compensating beams, though I do need to verify the eight coupled locos as to that statement. Certainly on the six coupled locos, the middle and rear driving wheelsets can use this arrangement, with the front driving wheelset being 'pivoted' on a centrally located beam which bears on the front driving axle. The four coupled locos simply use the compensating beams on both driving wheelsets.

 

The vertical movement allowed, at each end of the compensating beam depends on the horn guides and axleboxes used, but probably needs to be no more than 1.0 mm in total, which should be adequate to accommodate the inequalities in most trackwork.

 

All of the kits can, however, be built as rigid chassis' and one piece coupling rod etchings are included for this as an alternative to the articulated coupling rods. Where springing is preferred to the use of compensating beams, then Continuous Springy Beams (CSB's) can be used.

 

For horn guides and axleboxes I only have experience of the High Level products though I know that other suppliers may use slightly different approaches to the provision of the horn guides on 'sliding axleboxes' i.e. Brassmaster, Alan Gibson, David Bradwell etc.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Thanks Mike, most interesting. I'm currently building my first non-rigid loco, with a Flexichas-style beam arrangement (horn guides and axle boxes from MJT) and when I was in the early stages of the chassis construction and saw the beam system working for the first time, I was absolutely amazed at the cleverness of the concept and the simple way in which it works. The apparent contradiction there is intentional - some of the cleverest ideas are also some of the simplest!

Various of the rolling stock kits I've built also have some axle-rocking type of compensation - D&S vans and coaches for instance - but the next loco I build will almost certainly be a CSB one though, as I'd like to try out that system next...

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

 

The wheels have now been added and quartered, allowing the coupling rods to be located on the crankpins and then checked to ensure that the wheels rotate without any binding. The coupling rod journals have not yet been opened out to accept the Alan Gibson crankpin collets so are a pretty tight fit over the crankpins. The grub screw on the final drive gear wheel has not yet been tightened onto the rear axle, which allows the rolling chassis to be checked and adjusted without disturbing the motor or gearbox mountings.

 

The photo also acts as a check on the ride heights of the loco and tender, which appear to be about right.

 

My earlier photo of the 'three wheeler' did seem to cause the odd comment and some may even have thought I 'was taking the mickey'. No; the three wheel test, on 0-6-0's, is a regular part of the tests to check the limits of movement of the compensating beams and the front driving axle pivot and with this model, to get the correct ride heights of loco and tender

 

Next job is the completion of the loco brake gear and then onto the final detailing phases.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

This photo of an actual J21 might be of interest. We worry about footplates being dead straight and loco and tender ride heights being exactly similar when building these models. Anyway, this photo (1946 or later) shows one of Kirkby Stephen's (51H) J21's - a superheated example - on a passenger train.

 

Everything we try and avoid is present on this loco!!

 

I think the location is Penrith; perhaps someone can confirm?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by mikemeg

[Asterix2012]

5 hours ago, mikemeg said:

This photo of an actual J21 might be of interest. We worry about footplates being dead straight and loco and tender ride heights being exactly similar when building these models. Anyway, this photo (1946 or later) shows one of Kirkby Stephen's (51H) J21's - a superheated example - on a passenger train.

 

Everything we try and avoid is present on this loco!!

 

I think the location is Penrith; perhaps someone can confirm?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

I imagine there would be a variation in ride height between a full and empty tender and springs will weaken with age.

 I wonder which is easier, modelling  a straight running plate or a bend like that in it.

[MarkC]

7 hours ago, mikemeg said:

This photo of an actual J21 might be of interest. We worry about footplates being dead straight and loco and tender ride heights being exactly similar when building these models. Anyway, this photo (1946 or later) shows one of Kirkby Stephen's (51H) J21's - a superheated example - on a passenger train.

 

Everything we try and avoid is present on this loco!!

 

I think the location is Penrith; perhaps someone can confirm?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Definitely Penrith, even without looking at the running-in board on the right of shot

 

As you say, Mike, if you turned out a model like that, there would be howls of outrage from some!

 

What an atmospheric post-war shot too - everything filthy & looking down at heel - and note the patch on the cabside where some paint has been slapped on to cover the old number before the new ones were applied. At least they're straight 

 

Mark

[mikemeg]

On 04/03/2022 at 19:58, MarkC said:

Definitely Penrith, even without looking at the running-in board on the right of shot

 

As you say, Mike, if you turned out a model like that, there would be howls of outrage from some!

 

What an atmospheric post-war shot too - everything filthy & looking down at heel - and note the patch on the cabside where some paint has been slapped on to cover the old number before the new ones were applied. At least they're straight 

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for the posting. Even in 1946, this loco must have been between 50 and 60 years old,  as they were built in the period 1886 - 1894.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

[MarkC]

33 minutes ago, mikemeg said:

 

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for the posting. Even in 1946, this loco must have been between 50 and 60 years old,  as they were built in the period 1886 - 1894.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike

 

Yes, they were certainly survivors - but apart from being well designed & built, they were well suited to this sort of work on the Stainmore route.

 

To digress slightly - J21s, J27s & Q6s - the NER certainly built 'em to last 

 

Mark

 

[mikemeg]

45 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Hi Mike

 

Yes, they were certainly survivors - but apart from being well designed & built, they were well suited to this sort of work on the Stainmore route.

 

To digress slightly - J21s, J27s & Q6s - the NER certainly built 'em to last 

 

Mark

 

 

Mark,

 

No problem with slight digressions; this thread is full of them!!

 

Yes, some of the ex North eastern locos were some of the last survivors of steam in the North East. The Q6 on the NYMR is, I believe, now over one hundred years old and the most famous steam locomotive of them all (arguably) though ex Great Northern,  Flying Scotsman, is also pretty close to one hundred and is still working! 

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by mikemeg

[Chas Levin]

On 04/03/2022 at 10:35, mikemeg said:

My earlier photo of the 'three wheeler' did seem to cause the odd comment and some may even have thought I 'was taking the mickey'. No; the three wheel test, on 0-6-0's, is a regular part of the tests to check the limits of movement of the compensating beams and the front driving axle pivot and with this model, to get the correct ride heights of loco and tender

Well Mike, I didn't realise that at all, very interesting. I must admit that while I certainly didn't think you were 'taking the mickey', I'd assumed you'd just popped on the three wheels for a quick pic and that you'd noted the movement of the beams in passing: I still hadn't realised at that point that you meant that it was a regular part of your standard test procedure until you explained it - thank you for clarifying. I shall be trying that on the next loco I build...

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

 

Some further progress on this build now in serious competition, for time, with the garden as the weather becomes warmer. The brakes and brake linkage are fitted, the buffers and some of the tender details also fitted. So the fit and integrity of the major components are all checked out. What remains are details which have already been proven on previous test builds, though obviously they need to be added to achieve full completion.

 

These locos were like thousands of others of the late 19th century and the first forty years of the 20th century. They were simple, robust, workaday 0-6-0 tender goods locos, yet somehow they had a style and an aesthetic 'rightness' which seems, now, to have all but deserted the railways; though, perhaps, I am more than a little biased!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by mikemeg

[Chas Levin]

22 hours ago, mikemeg said:

These locos were like thousands of others of the late 19th century and the first forty years of the 20th century. They were workaday 0-6-0 tender goods locos, yet somehow they had a style and an aesthetic 'rightness' which seems, now, to have all but deserted the railways; though, perhaps, I am more than a little biased!!

Mike,

 

You're not the only one! We live in the age of boxes on wheels, don't we? It's not just locos - compare cars now, to cars made in the first half of the twentieth century.

Complete this joke: Fashion, Aesthetics, Engineering and Mass production all walk into a pub where Capitalism is working behind the bar...

[Blandford1969]

It looks like Arthur will have another winner with that J21, especially as it does the extended smokebox. Lovely build as ever. Any news on progress with the Q7?

[mikemeg]

Thanks to Chas and 'Blandford 1969' for the kind words.

 

Clearly, it is gratifying to watch the various 'counts of approval' as the numbers grow, but it is the individual postings which are even more gratifying, whether on topic, off topic or, sometimes just critical. It's those comments which make participation on this site so worthwhile.

 

Now I've just received an order for more wheels and crankpin components from Alan Gibson, which will allow not only the J21 and N8 to be completed but another tank engine which has lain 'bereft of wheels' these many months. So another large ex North Eastern tank will soon join the line of big tanks on the layout. 

 

As to the Q7, I know Arthur is continuing to work on this so I must leave any detailed comments to Arthur.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by mikemeg

[MarkC]

7 hours ago, mikemeg said:

Thanks to Chas and 'Blandford 1969' for the kind words.

 

Clearly, it is gratifying to watch the various 'counts of approval' as the numbers grow, but it is the individual postings which are even more gratifying, whether on topic, off topic or, sometimes just critical. It's those comments which make participation on this site so worthwhile.

 

Now I've just received an order for more wheels and crankpin components from Alan Gibson, which will allow not only the J21 and N8 to be completed but another tank engine which has lain 'bereft of wheels' these many months. So another large ex North Eastern tank will soon join the line of big tanks on the layout. 

 

As to the Q7, I know Arthur is continuing to work on this so I must leave any detailed comments to Arthur.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

How many A6s is that now, Mike? Lovely job 

 

I'm still awaiting the F8 - looking forward to it 

 

Mark

[Worsdell forever]

2 hours ago, MarkC said:

How many A6s is that now, Mike? Lovely job 

 

He'd better be careful, there was only ten...

[mikemeg]

14 hours ago, Worsdell forever said:

 

He'd better be careful, there was only ten...

 

Hi Paul,

 

Yes only ten were ever built as 4-6-0 tanks, then rebuilt, by the NER, to 4-6-2's, but by the time of my models - June 1950 - only seven remained and one of those was withdrawn before the August 1950 stock lists were compiled.

 

So, I shall stop at four. The first one - 69796 - built was originally a Little Engines white metal kit, where I gradually (and eventually almost completely) replaced the white metal body parts with plasticard, reinforcing the tanks with fillings of plastic padding. The second - 69798 - was a test build of Arthur's A6 kit. The third - 69791 - and fourth - 69798 - are builds of the production version of Arthur's kit. There will be no fifth.

 

Now the A8's are a different issue completely with their differing boilers, etc. I am planning to build only two of those and only two of the A7's when I get around to them!! The A5's, of course, were ex-Great Central and then early LNER built locos, though they would complete the 'A' tanks.

 

Hull, where most of my models were actually based, must have been one of the few places where all of the 'A's from A1 to A8 could have been seen, though not at the same period of time.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER N8

 

Who was it who likened one of my photographs (with a three wheeled loco) to a 'Del Boy'/'Trotter' vehicle? Well for that contributor (and thank you for the humour and the interest) and anyone else reading the thread, here's another.

 

This is the first stage of the wheeling of the N8, just to check the compensating beams and the ride height and levels.

 

Someone asked whether I pose the models for these photos or just take 'grab shots'? Yes, I pose the models, then light them with the room light and the daylight lamp. Once taken and rendered to the PC, the photo is straightened (where necessary) and then cropped as necessary. The photo may also be 'enhanced' by using various filters and contrast adjustments.

 

The whole process, set up to final edited photo, is done inside three minutes, so not time consuming. 

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER N8

 

This model is now all wheeled up with the final drive gear wheel not yet tightened onto the driving axle and the coupling rods just placed over the crankpin screws . So some final checks on the ride height and the clearances between the wheels and the insides of the front splashers, as there isn't a lot of clearance available.

 

Brake and sanding gear still to do but it's starting to look like an N8.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by mikemeg

[Chas Levin]

Mike, can I ask though, on the 3-wheel subject: the previous 3-wheel photo you showed was an 0-6-0 with one axle and one wheel in each location, sort of 1-1-1 if that makes sense, with the middle '1' on the opposite side to the front and rear. Here however, you have two at the back, none in the middle and one at the front.

 

My question: is that deliberate and if so, is that in order to test the behaviour of the beam(s) in different configurations?