Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

A little more progress on the B4 chassis, with the motion plates, front sandboxes and cylinder internals added. The valve guides  have also been fitted to the motion plate to facilitate the fitting of the internal valve motion. Next up is the fabrication and fitting of the slide bars.

 

I was, initially, a little sceptical at the use of .015" nickel silver for the mainframes but that scepticism is now dismissed as the assembled chassis is both very rigid and very robust.

 

The countersunk holes at the bottom of the chassis, each side of the mainframe horn block cut outs are to accept 14BA countersunk bolts for attaching the mainframe springs.

 

All of the tube, brass rod and wire (0.3mm, 0.45mm, 0.7 mm) is supplied in the kit, which does make 'provisioning' for this build very much easier.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

One more step to do before the slide bars are fabricated and shaped is to cut and fit the oilers/valve spindle bearings into the valve guide spacer. These are cut from the 2.4 mm tube and then slotted ono a piece of 1.6 mm rod which is then lined up into the 1.8 mm holes in the steam chest spacers. If the rod slides easily through the valve guides then the inside motion should line up, once fitted. The piece of 1.6 mm rod is then removed once the oiler/bearing is soldered into the spacer.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

I guess we've all read parts of instructions where the immediate reaction is 'you've got to be joking if you're expecting me to do that'. Well, on reading the instructions for fabricating the slide bars, that was my initial reaction.

 

Take four layers of .015"nickel silver, all of them only 1. 25 mm wide and each with four .3 mm positioning holes to be drilled out and then, using 0.3 mm wire to line up the layers, sweat them all together. After doing that, then the resulting piece must be filed to remove the layer edges and produce a single, shaped piece.

 

Anyway, I followed the instructions to the letter and, after a couple of hours of very exacting toil, I managed to produce the component shown in the photo below; a shaped slide bar  and almost finish its partner. 

 

Now just another two of these to do!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

And then to the 'acid test'; do these two slide bars line up and is the distance between them a consistent 4.6 mm i.e. are they exactly parallel? Well they do line up and the distance between them seems consistent. As yet neither of these is fixed and won't be until the crosshead is fabricated and then checked for free running within the slide bars. Only then can the slide bars be fixed into the slide bar guides.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

So, despite my initial reaction to the fabrication and fettling of the four slide bars, I have managed to fabricate all four and to shape them to the required profile. Anyway, from the four layers which constitute each slide bar, to a sub-assembly which comprises some eight layers - the crosshead. The instructions do warn of the potential conflict between the rear of the crosshead and the front crankpin as I experienced on a B15 build, some years ago.

 

On the B15 (North Eastern Class S2) the actual clearance between the crosshead and the front crankpin nut was around 1/2" on the real thing, which did require some very careful alignment and also required the Alan Gibson crankpin nut to be fitted in reverse, effectively 'countersunk' into the front coupling rod journal.

 

So, on this model, I did omit a couple of layers of the crosshead, to reduce its width and also slightly reduced the width of the slide bars. I also intend to ensure that the connecting rod journal, which fits into the crosshead, is spaced as far across within the crosshead as it can be, to further increase the spacing between the crosshead and the rear of the connecting rod and the front crankpin though this will only add a few thou to that clearance.

 

Anyway, having fabricated the crosshead and adjusted the slide bar support brackets to provide the correct clearance for the crosshead to slide across the full length of the slide bars, time to set up the arrangement, without fixing anything, to check the whole assembly, including the piston rod alignment, as per the photograph below.

 

All seems to check out ok, though the top and bottom of the crosshead may need a little more filing just to ensure that they clear the slide bar support brackets!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

And then with the connecting rod laid in place just to ensure that the travel of the crosshead, within the slide bars, is not going to be compromised by the crankpin throw on the centre drivers.

 

Looks ok.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by mikemeg

[JohnBateson]

Mike,

There is not a lot of space behind the cross head. I did not add the overlays to the coupled and driver wheels, either at the rear of the front. As is general practice, I think, the front axle should not normally have side play and the Markits axle boxes should therefore slide against the frame directly. The knuckle on the coupling rod should be loose.

I also file off the front of the markits axle box to get rid of the rim, noting that this fits with the thicker side within the frame, this gives a small increment in the centre and rear sideplay. Most of my frames have been16.05mm.

The front wheels, if using the AG bushes and nuts, should be inset in reverse in the coupling rod, I believe this is common practice.

Below I have highlighted the areas of concern - this has been a dig into the archives from 2012! A long time since I designed this one.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by JohnBateson

[mikemeg]

John,

 

Many thanks for the drawing and information re clearances. I have omitted the outermost half etched layer on the rear of the crosshead - it isn't visible - as the crosshead was getting mighty close to the sandbox. Leaving this layer off gives greater clearance. I've also mounted the slide bars as far out, within their slots in the cylinder formers, as they will go which adds a few more thou to the clearances.

 

I set up two sets of 6' 6" drivers and the connecting rod just to check on the maximum extent of the slide of the crosshead v the slide bars.  Here the crossheads do have spare travel at the extreme limit (i.e. rear dead centre) of the crankpin throw so no problem.

 

Checking on the key clearance i.e. front crankpin nut and the rear of the connecting rod, I think there will be ample clearance if the AG crankpin nut is reversed i.e. effectively counter sunk / flush mounted into the front coupling rod journal, though this can only really be checked once the coupling rod is assembled and then test fitted to check for clearances.

 

So far, so good!!

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

John,

 

Following on from your advice on clearances, I wonder if you could offer your advice on the drive train :-

 

Which is the preferred axle for the final drive gear wheel / gearbox. I guess that fitting the working valve gear and gearbox onto the centre driving axle might prove a little difficult so I assume that the gear box is fitted to the rear axle if the valve gear is fitted to the centre driving axle?

 

What is your recommendation on motor size and orientation of mounting the motor? I do have some Mashima 1424's, 1426's and 1428's which I haven't yet used, so are any of these suitable in your opinion.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

A little more progress with the B4. The connecting rods and coupling rods have been assembled, though I haven't, as yet, fitted any of the overlays to the journal bosses on the coupling rods. Ideally, overlays to both front and rear of these rods should be added to all three journals but this is the crux of the clearance issue, especially in P4, so until I can do a 'dry run' set up of the motion on properly gauged wheels, then none of these will be added.

 

The connecting rods are obviously articulated at the knuckle, as shown in the photo.

 

The assembly of the brakes is also different in that the brake blocks are etched totally separately from the brake hangars. Both the brake blocks and brake hangars are formed of two layers which must be lined up and held by pieces of 0.45 mm wire during the soldering process. Doing the brakes this way does overcome one of the problems frequently found in etched kits - the assembled brake's blocks do not hang at the correct angle in relation to the wheel rim. 

 

To try and ensure this I set up a jig, using layers of card, into which the guide wires were pushed. Then a 6' 6" diameter AG wheel was placed, against this assembly, positioned as it will be on the chassis. By this means the angle of the brake block can be set against the wheel rim as per the photograph.

 

Lots of new techniques and approaches to learn on this kit!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by mikemeg

[MarshLane]

9 minutes ago, mikemeg said:

To try and ensure this I set up a jig, using layers of card, into which the guide wires were pushed. Then a 6' 6" diameter AG wheel was placed, against this assembly, positioned as it ill be on the chassis. By this means the angle of the brake block can be set against the wheel rim as per the photograph.

Mike,

Stunning work with the B4. Do you have any images of the card jig you’ve made for positioning the brake blocks? Amazing how neat the various layers are, I have never felt comfort or really got the hand of sweating layers of etch together!
 

Also, looking at the frames, the double spacers at the front are presumably soldered together, but I cannot see any solder line at all? Can I ask how you’ve done them?

Richard

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by MarshLane

[mikemeg]

Richard,

 

As you asked, I set up the jig, again.  It simply consists of two wires, pushed into the card at the points where there are holes in ends of the brake hangars. A further hole, at the centre of the brake hangar (where the broach is located) positions the brake block and allows it to be rotated against the wheel rim until the orientations match, Then the soldering iron is very carefully and very lightly applied avoiding the two end wires. After that the next layers are added until the assembly is complete and can be taken off the wires.

 

On assembling layers of etches. I always apply solder to the edges of the layers clamped together, after a liberal application of flux. By this means capillary action will draw the solder into and between the layers. The edge can then be cleaned up 'leaving no trace'. All of the multi-layer rods (coupling rods, connecting rods) are done this way, using broaches pushed into the holes to line them up. So far, I've not yet soldered up one of my broaches such that it can't be extricated from its locating position but 'give me time'.

 

As to solder lines, anyone who follows this thread will know that I am an inveterate user of needle files and the glass fibre brush for cleaning off excess solder.

 

I guess like many modellers of my 'advanced age', I've picked up these techniques over the years, though the 'brake assembly jig' is my most recent technique acquisition.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

As a final posting on the scratch built fencing, I've now fitted most of the sections to the layout. So, yet another photo of 'that bridge' where I and my youthful contemporaries first discovered and became fascinated by the railways.

 

I still have to 'plant' the nearer bank by the side of the permanent way, so there is some very old moss (the real stuff) being 'mummified' ready to make vegetation.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by mikemeg

[MarshLane]

2 hours ago, mikemeg said:

Richard,

 

As you asked, I set up the jig, again.  It simply consists of two wires, pushed into the card at the points where there are holes in ends of the brake hangars. A further hole, at the centre of the brake hangar (where the broach is located) positions the brake block and allows it to be rotated against the wheel rim until the orientations match, Then the soldering iron is very carefully and very lightly applied avoiding the two end wires. After that the next layers are added until the assembly is complete and can be taken off the wires.

 

On assembling layers of etches. I always apply solder to the edges of the layers clamped together, after a liberal application of flux. By this means capillary action will draw the solder into and between the layers. The edge can then be cleaned up 'leaving no trace'. All of the multi-layer rods (coupling rods, connecting rods) are done this way, using broaches pushed into the holes to line them up. So far, I've not yet soldered up one of my broaches such that it can't be extricated from its locating position but 'give me time'.

 

As to solder lines, anyone who follows this thread will know that I am an inveterate user of needle files and the glass fibre brush for cleaning off excess solder.

 

I guess like many modellers of my 'advanced age', I've picked up these techniques over the years, though the 'brake assembly jig' is my most recent technique acquisition.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Mike,

Thanks for that, and for going to the trouble of setting that up again, I have only recently come across your thread after it was suggested looking at for a NER tank I am slowly building, but I really need to sit down with the iPad and good cup of coffee and read through the first 72 pages!  Looks like many good hints and tips.

 

Thanks again for the photo with the jig - logical really when you think about it, but its the thinking about it that is a core thing!  Thanks for the background on assembling layers of etches. I have been using a liquid flux but I am thinking I need to get some proper put it on with a cocktail stick type sticky flux.  That might be where I am falling down.  When you say 'layers clamped together' are you using just normal non-plastic pinch clamps or putting them on wire like the jig and using a bit of weight to press together?

 

Avidly watching and following along now :)

 

Richard

Edited February 8, 2023 by MarshLane

[mikemeg]

The photos below should really be in an entirely different topic area but having shown one of the two seven foot sections of the railway, then I'll bring that particular topic up to date with a picture of what the next - the third - section should look like, looking the other way from 'that bridge' shown in a posting above.

 

The signal bridge and the gantry in the photo are already modelled but the trackwork is still being done. Amazing that this whole scene has gone; the bridge from which this photo was taken, the gasworks and its siding, the ship building yard just off scene to the right, the four tracks (now reduced to two) and the entries and exits from three of the Hull marshalling yards and the yards themselves have all disappeared under housing and retail developments.

 

But what a place it was!!

 

The second photo is the view towards Hull and the bridge, with the down Hessle Haven signal gantry in place.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by mikemeg

[JohnBateson]

MM asks a question on driver gear. The motor and gearbox I have always thought should be up to the builder since there are so many variations possible. The best I have seen is driven from the tender with a couple of UJs but this is something I have not attempted.

The crux of the matter in deciding whether to mount the gearbox on the driver or the two coupled axles is driven by several factors. Note that I draw at full scale in the section below.

 

1. The spacing of the valve rod - these are 30" centres, or 15" each side. To this must be subtracted one side of the eccentric assembly, i.e. 12" each side which is 4 mm. So the maximum width of the gearbox is 24" or 8 mm.

2. In the gearbox profiles from HighLevel the only gearbox that meets this specification is the SlimLiner at 7.3 mm or the HiFlier and the RoadRunner, which at 7.8 mm is extremely marginal.

3. While there is some flexibility in the valve rods to mount them slightly out, or there is no requirement to have the internal gear (barely visible - see picture), or the inner valve plate is thinned down to less than 0.5 mm, the choice is varied. I bought a couple of Exactoscale boxes that were expensive but would have done the job nicely.

4. Note that HighLevel now have all sorts of new motors and I suspect some of the gearboxes have been altered slightly to suit.

 

While the motor is free to spring up and down, there is also a turning force at the axle. A simple omega loop soldered between the gearbox side and the top bracket at the firebox will sort this out. I think.

 

So, I chose the rear coupled axle and High Level Gear Box HighFlier 40:1. A 12XX motor would be fine although if the firebox front is filed back to allow a little extra sideplay, then a 14XX should fit, which I did for 1098. (Note to self - this has been ready for painting for far too long and I now have a tender for it - no excuse really!)

 

I have qty 4 of these in various states of disrepair, the absence of one of the bodies explains the lump hammer with the red ribbon that I posted earlier.

 

Another question earlier. I use Nealetin extensively, a liquid solder with its own flux. I only use real rosin solder where a stronger joint is needed such as a wedge at a right angle joint.

 

John

 

 

 

 

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

Firstly, many thanks to John for the information and the drawings above. I have to confess that I am proceeding through this much more slowly than I have with other kits, simply because the design and engineering approach is different from other kits which I've built. Anyway, having assembled all six brakes, though not yet fitted them, back to the motion.

 

The crossheads and slide bars have already been checked for free sliding, however adding the piston rod can change the slide profile, especially if it is fitted off centre within the crosshead. Here I did depart from the instructions in that I turned a 0.75 mm length of the 25 mm piston rod down from its 1.6 mm diameter to 0.7 mm diameter. A 0.7 mm hole was then drilled in the end of the crosshead. The piston rod was then fitted and soldered into the crosshead using the 0.7 mm hole as a positioning guide. 

 

The whole assembly was then tested again in the slide bars with the piston rod to ensure that the crosshead still slid quite freely between the slide bars. There was a little tightening at the front of the crosshead movement but this tightening didn't occur until the connecting rod throw was some 7 mm forward of the driving axle centre, As the crankpin throw, on the Gibson 26 mm driving wheels is 4 mm then everything checks out ok.

 

Now to fit the connecting rod small ends to the crossheads and add the final crosshead overlay. Again, to join the con rod to the crosshead I will turn up some 0.6 mm steel pins in one of the pin chucks reserved for this; it's now no good for anything else!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by mikemeg

[JohnBateson]

I should have pointed out in my drawing from 8 Feb that the eccentrics as shown are simply done with a "copy by centre" so appear to be a mirror image. Of course the right hand set should be leading by 90 degrees, I just didn't want to go through the hassle of redrawing the full set at a different angle and position!🙄

I am sure Mike has spotted this anyway...

John

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

After a few days away from the workbench, It's back to the B4. Both sets of slide bars have been soldered into the cylinder formers and the crossheads have now been attached to their respective piston rods, this after I had to remake one of the crossheads, as the piston rod had been fitted slightly off centre; enough though to cause the crosshead to bind on the slide bars.  Anyway, I now have two crossheads fitted to their connecting rods and everything slides and moves as it should.

 

Checking the fit of the crossheads/connecting rods, within the slide bars now allows the spacing to be measured, which gives a separation between the two connecting rods of 26.5 mm. A correctly gauged set of P4 driving wheels measure around 22.7 mm across, over the driving wheel bosses, so there is around 3.8 mm of space to accommodate the two sets of crankpins and crankpin nuts, i.e. 1.9 mm per side. Realistically to provide for some slack, this is around 1.5 mm per side so not a lot of space (if any) to add the etched bosses to the front journals.

 

So now on to the next stages.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

Following on from the forming of the slide bars, the assembly of the crossheads and uniting them with their connecting rods comes, perhaps, the trickiest part of the chassis assembly - the inside valve motion. This motion is designed to replicate the prototype as closely as possible and is designed to be operational if the builder so decides. Anyway, this builder is attempting to make the inside motion a working item, so the instructions are being followed very closely.

 

The first pair of valve rods have been parted and the forked joints at the ends of each rod have been assembled. Use of spacers on different sides of the two rods will allow the forked joints to line up vertically, once installed on their eccentric cams.

 

One departure which I have made from the instructions is to strengthen the two valve rods by adding an overlay between the eccentric collar and the curved end of the rod.  As supplied, these rods are half etched and could be prone to bending with very little force applied. The reinforcing pieces were fashioned from scrap pieces of nickel silver strip - actually the etch frame from high level gearbox nickel silver etches - to exactly match the profile of the rod from the eccentric collar to the curved section of the rod, some 20 mm. Obviously to allow the two rods to function correctly when installed over the eccentric cams, the inner rod was strengthened on its inside and the outer rod on its outside.

 

The three photographs, below, show : -

 

1) the inner rod (top) with its augmented piece visible and the outer rod (bottom).

 

2) the two rods lined up as they will be fitted into the eccentrics which fit onto the centre driving wheel axle.

 

3) the outer rod located over its eccentric cam, which will be fixed to the centre driving axle and is the means by which the valve rod moves forwards and backwards. So each pair of valve rods will be fitted over a pair of eccentrics, fixed in different orientations, to facilitate the 'rocking' of the eccentric link.

 

The drawing, appended by John Bateson in an earlier posting, shows the full arrangement.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by mikemeg

[Human8984]

Where did you get the B4? Im looking into expanding my fleet with more GCR-built locos

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Human8984

[mikemeg]

5 hours ago, Human8984 said:

Where did you get the B4? Im looking into expanding my fleet with more GCR-built locos

 

 

My models are all set in a mid-1950 time frame, by which time the only ex-Great Central class of 4-6-0's left was the B4 and only one of those remained in service at that time! So I purchased the B4 kit, some years ago, from John Bateson who developed and marketed his range of locomotive kits - all of which were ex Great Central prototypes - under the name of Great Central Models. Sadly, John ceased trading some years ago. The kit has languished in my 'to do' cupboard for a few years without being touched until about two months ago, when it came out onto the workbench.

 

I'm now building and assembling the inside motion and have fitted the first pair of valve rods to their eccentric cams which fit onto the centre driving axle and activate the whole thing. The first photo shows the part completed assembly just placed onto the axle to check that everything sits square, which it does. The second photo shows the relative positions of the valve rods change, as they revolve on their cams, mounted on the driving axle. Now to assemble the next pair of valve rods and then to add the eccentric links to each pair.

 

I make no apologies for the rather slow rate of progress on this but I'm having to learn a whole new design and assembly approach with this kit (and the wonders of working valve gear); quite different from the test builds of Arthur Kimber's North Eastern Kits range.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by mikemeg

[JohnBateson]

Availability of these designs (Classes 8, 8B, 8C, 8F) which had spacers for P4 and EM and further designs (8A, 8G, 11B) which are P4 only plus there are tender designs, one of which will do for P4/EM/00, the other two are for P4 only.These were handed to Jeremy Suter of the Scalefour Society during 2017 - 2019 for long term preservation along with the rights to use as he thought fit.

All the instructions are with Jeremy, some of these stretch to 40+ pages. As Mike has said, these are not kits for the inexperienced - see posts above!

 

Producing these kits left me with no free time among all the other tasks I had at that time.

 

This left me able to concentrate on newer work as and when I had spare time and more to the point, when I had the wherewithall.

 

Jeremy has etches for most of the above designs and should be contacted if there is interest.

John

Edited March 3, 2023 by JohnBateson

[Blandford1969]

Is there any news on how Arthur is doing, I remember it being said he was sadly not very well?

[mikemeg]

LNER B4

 

The two sets of valve rods have been assembled onto their eccentric cams and the first of the eccentric links has been assembled and profiled. Another of those multi-layer nickel silver components, again quite small; this one requiring quite a lot of filing to achieve the final shape. A shape now shared by my thumb, middle and index fingers!!

 

Anyway, the full assembly has just been pinned (not yet soldered) to check that the eccentric link will travel the full distance without binding, which it does. Now to subject the fingers to even more 're-shaping' as I make and fit the second eccentric link!!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by mikemeg