The Patiala State Monorail Trainways

[peter220950]

It's the Cornwall Model Railway Exhibition,  at Carn Brae Leisure Centre,  on Sunday 6th November.

 

And I certainly hope so !

 

I have just noticed you have announced the demise of this project in your signature, sneaky! Surely it deserves a fitting end if you really mean it.

 

 

Mutually Incompatible I suggest!

 

We need to know which? - I was looking forward to building a 'Guest' loco

 

Peter

[Oldddudders]

I have just noticed you have announced the demise of this project in your signature, sneaky! Surely it deserves a fitting end if you really mean it.

 

I think he's done a deal with Brian Harrap, who will now add Stu's patent to his own implausibly brilliant creations. 

[Stubby47]

Well, as there is ( and has been ) so much support for this project, I can only say that it will return.

 

I have a theory, based on one of the suggestions at Taunton, that might just work with the loco and coach as they are.

 

Watch this space......

 

And thanks again for everyone's input !

Edited July 5, 2016 by Stubby47

[dhjgreen]

Well, as there is ( and has been ) so much for this project, I can only say that it will return.

 

I have a theory, based on one of the suggestions at Taunton, that might just work with the loco and coach as they are.

 

Watch this space......

 

And thanks again for everyone's input !

Yay!

[Northroader]

Once we get the readings back from the JUNO probe currently circling the planet Jupiter, Stu will be fully competent to work with super magnetism fields and apply the findings to the PSMT reed switches. Then look out, all you doubters!

[Graham456]

Sad to hear the old PSMR has been mothballed but at least you tried and deserve praise for haveing a go

[Ian Smeeton]

Come on Stubby

 

Ra Ra Ra!

 

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Simond]

Stu

 

Just seen that you have moved this to a "Failed Project" status, which seems a dreadful shame. It was so splendidly daft that it just has to succeed!

 

Looking way back in the thread, there was a discussion about using a bridge rectifier within the loco, and an AC supply. This had the advantages of simple wiring & no reed switches. The only disadvantage seemed to be the difficulty of reversing.

 

I think one contributor suggested using DCC, and this seems to me to be the easiest solution - alternate sections of track connected to J & K with very short insulated joints between, and a keep-alive attached to the decoder. As long as you ensure that the rolling-stock wheelbase is such that it can't short and can't park with all of the wheels of one polarity on the insulating bits, it should be good to go.

 

You don't need the 4-digit addressing of a sophisticated setup, the cheapest second-hand DCC set should give you all the control you need.

 

Hoping this helps to re-animate the project!

Best

Simon

[BG John]

I don't know if it was suggested earlier, but I think I'd use battery power and radio control. No need for any power on the rail then.

[Simond]

Yes, given what Giles and others have done, it's very do-able

 

Best

Simon

[BG John]

It seems to be worth experimenting with cheap Chinese RC cars. They just go backwards and forwards, and left and right, at very high speed, but gearing down to a very low single speed is probably fine, and maybe the steering controls can be used to make the driver move or something! I've got a coke can one on the way for £3.59, but larger scale ones are around £12. I don't think Giles' level of sophistication is essential (although very nice!).

[Simond]

John,

 

I think the controllability that these very small vehicles exhibit is probably down to the control gear, which may not be so sophisticated in the R/C toy market products, although with a bit of gearing down, I guess it might work well.

 

I have no personal experience, but I believe this is the product - http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rx_dt.html

 

Best

Simon

[BG John]

John,

 

I think the controllability that these very small vehicles exhibit is probably down to the control gear, which may not be so sophisticated in the R/C toy market products, although with a bit of gearing down, I guess it might work well.

 

I have no personal experience, but I believe this is the product - http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rx_dt.html

 

Best

Simon

Deltang seems to be be a good product at a reasonable price. I'm tempted to try it, or something similar, in O gauge. But I'd like to try the cheap car stuff first on something simple, just to dip my toe in the water.

[dhjgreen]

There have been a number of potential solutions suggested throughout this thread, but in each case Stu has clung StuBBernly to powering through the single rail.

[SMR CHRIS]

Hi Stu when you do decide to come back to this project you may like to take a look at this system its very new Blue Rail trains Bachman have done a basic range using the technology using track power and the blue tooth control but on the Blue Rail sight they do a dead rail Verision

Link http://bluerailtrains.com/board-sign-up/

They do a standalone Dead rail system everything included, control board, battery, magnetic on off switch plus it's free to download the Control App to your smart phone

It would solve all the issues and as the train will always have the carriage attached you have plenty of space for the battery etc.

People are using it in old US Oscale and getting 2 plus hours run time with the small motor in the donor Hormby loco should get full day of running at say a show on one charge I would guess.

Quick vid showing the dead rail board

[Stubby47]

Gents,

 

Many thanks for all the ideas and links - certainly food for thought.

 

There have been a number of potential solutions suggested throughout this thread, but in each case Stu has clung StuBBernly to powering through the single rail.

 

This might be changing..... but I'll still be using a bog-standard, dc-powered loco.  The idea I'm considering was first proposed way back in post #13,by Nick Holliday, and was also suggested by Ian (TomParryHarry) at Taunton.

 

There will be two electrical rails, split either side of a central insulator (as suggested, an inverted 'T' plastic rod).

 

 

As each of the wheels have tyres which are conical, the 'other' side of the rail should not be in contact with the wheel.  So the loco wheels are set to use one rail and the coach wheels are set to use the other rail.

 

And no bl**dy reed switches !!

 

[uax6]

Slight modification:

Make the wheels up from a disc of plastic with the flanges being metal. You wouldn't need much sideplay on the wheels, so effectively the flanges are in contact with the conducting part of the rail.

 

Andy G

[Ruston]

This is the craziest thing I've ever seen on this site. Full marks for effort and entetainment value!

 

I know you said you want to use DC but how about DCC, using ordinary plain proprietary rail? Place short dead sections between alternating + and - sections, just long ehough so the loco doesn't short the + and - and a keep alive to carry the loco over the dead sections?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Ruston

[Stubby47]

Thank you for those kind words - must keep the eccentric end up !

 

I accept that DCC would give more advantage over DC, but I have no desire to use DCC in my 'normal' modelling, so can't justify the expense for this odd project.

[Stubby47]

I've had a cogitate about using DCC.

 

The ideas generally revolve around using alternating sections of positive and negative powered track (yes, I know it's alternating current, so positive and negative are relative terms), with a short dead section between them.

 

Now, how long should the dead section be ?  It needs to be longer than the loco chassis and the also longer than the coach chassis, or there will still be a short. Even a stay-alive, I'm guessing, won't supply power for the time required to traverse the dead section.

 

The powered sections also need to be exactly the same length, so the transition of +/- power between the pick-ups is instantaneous.  Which means the loco chassis and coach chassis also need to have exactly the same wheelbase.

 

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I can't see how DCC is in any way a better solution - it just brings its own set of problems.

[dhjgreen]

Lots of very short tracks and a box of hex frog juicers, maybe      

Edited July 11, 2016 by dhjgreen

[BG John]

If a monorail of any sorts ever gets to the top of my ever growing to do list, I think I'll go straight to radio control. Anything else seems far too complicated.

[Ruston]

I've had a cogitate about using DCC.

 

The ideas generally revolve around using alternating sections of positive and negative powered track (yes, I know it's alternating current, so positive and negative are relative terms), with a short dead section between them.

 

Now, how long should the dead section be ?  It needs to be longer than the loco chassis and the also longer than the coach chassis, or there will still be a short. Even a stay-alive, I'm guessing, won't supply power for the time required to traverse the dead section.

 

The powered sections also need to be exactly the same length, so the transition of +/- power between the pick-ups is instantaneous.  Which means the loco chassis and coach chassis also need to have exactly the same wheelbase.

 

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I can't see how DCC is in any way a better solution - it just brings its own set of problems.

As a trial I once lifted one of my locos off the track and placed it on a bare baseboard. It ran for 4 feet before running out of juice. The loco is fitted with with one of these - http://digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/search/ka2-keep-alive.aspx

[Simond]

Ruston,

 

Thanks for that info - this looks rather like the things I make (you can see in my Porth Dinllaen thread) but ready made and not hugely more expensive - I think I pay around £12 to make one of mine. I shall buy one to check it out.

 

Best

Simon

[peter220950]

I've had a cogitate about using DCC.

 

The ideas generally revolve around using alternating sections of positive and negative powered track (yes, I know it's alternating current, so positive and negative are relative terms), with a short dead section between them.

 

Now, how long should the dead section be ?  It needs to be longer than the loco chassis and the also longer than the coach chassis, or there will still be a short. Even a stay-alive, I'm guessing, won't supply power for the time required to traverse the dead section.

 

The powered sections also need to be exactly the same length, so the transition of +/- power between the pick-ups is instantaneous.  Which means the loco chassis and coach chassis also need to have exactly the same wheelbase.

 

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I can't see how DCC is in any way a better solution - it just brings its own set of problems.

 

 

I had been mulling this over for a few weeks, as I thought that you had shelved the project for the time being, so I resolved to have a go myself, just hadn't broken cover yet but your post is an opportunity to describe my thoughts on having DCC sound fitted loco's.

 

I had already come to the conclusion that DCC is the way forward, and plans are well in hand for a test to prove my theories, with a wagon, a bit of spare track and a Dremel to chop one side of the track up into short sections and pick up to drive a motor from just one side.

 

The principle is that with DCC it doesn't matter which way around the loco is, it will always travel forwards if told to do so by the controller, so if you put the loco on the track one way around the red feed to the track will connect to the red wire of the decoder, if you pick it up and turn it around the red wire from the track will connect to the black wire on the decoder, but the motor will still spin in the same direction.

 

My plan is to fix the wheelbase, as you have, from one wheel pick-up at the front, and one wheel picking up at the rear. This length will dictate the exact spacing for the track pieces. a very short insulating piece between track sections (one mill or so) will ensure that the loco is always on two adjacent sections or in extreme conditions on two isolated sections.

 

Track sections are then wired red and black DCC wires alternately. The loco must therefore always be on a piece of track thats powered by a red and a black feed, it doesn't matter to the decoder which wire is connected to the decoder, it will sort out the fact that the loco must go forwards, (or backwards if commanded). The use of a keep alive will then ensure the loco will never get stuck on the insulated section, and help resolve the issue of only having two wheels picking up.

 

The drawings for my loco are virtually completed, (I think the published drawings show the tank sides to be too deep), and gears are ordered, so I may have something to run before too long, the only problem I forsee is the incompatibility of different track wiring set-up's, (see VHS/Betamax). This can be resolved by switching out the conventional pick-up and substituting an on-board RC/battery set up for visiting other set-up's, if there's room.

 

RC with a battery pack was actually decided upon as the way to go, as it removes all the technical issues, but somehow it seemed more in keeping with the eccentric nature of the beast to have an equally eccentric means of powering it. DCC also allows the use of sound, that I'm not as familiar with for RC.

 

I am also proposing something a bit complex for the transmission, driving the loco centre driver and the outrigger wheel, in itself a major exercise in maths, gear ratio calculation and compromise of wheel diameters, but I think I'm at the stage where I can start cutting metal once I get back from holiday. What did surprise me was how small it is even at 1/35th, the prospect of outside cranks and pistons is daunting to say the least!

 

Good to see you back thinking about the project, keep us up to date with progress.

 

Peter