Hornby Announce Peckett W4 0-4-0ST

[Compound2632]

Actually something else bearing in mind is that Pecketts tended to be bought singly rather than in fleets. 

 

True of the prototype. How true of the Hornby model?

[SRman]

True of the prototype. How true of the Hornby model?

 

Certainly true of me ... I had a surge of madness after buying the initial one, and ended up with all three!

[Edwardian]

That was quick! I have a H&P, so not wanting another. I can understand the speed but not the willingness to sell! I wouldn’t in the least mind Mallard passing an express hauled by a H&P, such is the charm of the latter.

 

Yes, and possibly lacked decorum!

 

I have ever regretted not pre-ordering the H&P as well as Dodo.  My reasoning was sound, Dodo in Peckett works livery is a more flexible choice.  But the H&P version is exquisite, and would be run and cherished to the same extent, even if sheltering under Rule No.1 for much of the time!

 

You may recall that I have been nothing short of ecstatic over these releases from the outset.  Hornby well-deserve their success and I am pleased that they have proved the case for small industrials.

 

Look at the L&Y pug.  How many of these have we seen pressed into service as privately owned industrials?  Quite a number considering that I believe only nine were ever sold out of service.  Proof that there was a gap in the market, I believe, and I think Hornby has proved this.

 

What we need now, I suggest, is a 6-wheel inside cylinder 0-6-0ST of the Manning Wardle, Hunslet or Hudswell Clarke ilk.  One is apparently in development, but probably more theoretical than actual.  I'd prefer a Manning Wardle, though what I should really do is improve my skills sufficiently to take on construction of a brace of RT Models' kits!

 

Owners of 4mm scale factories, collieries and Light Railways would, I'm sure, welcome further small industrials.

[brushman47544]

All interesting. I feel for the retailers who just because of their location they were unable to order, dare I say there needs be a better way. 

 

Well as Hornby are failing business 101. Supply, when there is a demand! The subcontracting of the manufacturing will hurt Hornby as they lose control of the supply chain (I should know I am a commercial builder). I dont think we know who is doing the fabrication or what else they have as a order book. I would have thought that Hornby would have "bought" slots and they would have a number of "lines" (other locos etc)  that they would be making. If say they had to cancel a line of Rail range Mallard's, or Flying scotsmans I would suggest that the market is already at saturation point for these... even a number of other lines I would suggest saturation (K1, D16, J15 are definitely in this boat) So it would make sense for a delay of production of these lines. However there may be down stream suppliers that cause issues such as metal castings, motors, wiring looms. which we as modelers may not know which factory they come from! So to bring all of these things together using " Just in time" production probably is a nightmare. 

 

Saying all this Hornby really should have seen that the demand was going to be higher than 1 loco this year! 

 

The latest Bachmann Times club magazine makes interesting reading in this regard. Despite Kader being the "exclusive" manufacturer of Bachmann products, the production of some parts (and the boxes) is sub-contracted. It seems likely that Hornby's arrangements with its factories will be similar, so it may not just be a case of booking a production slot with factory X to produce, say, 1,000 Pecketts but production slots in other factories will also be needed for the subcontracted parts. This would make it much more difficult to increase the production run at factory X as the subcontractors would also need to be able to increase their production runs of the parts at the same time.

Edited June 22, 2017 by brushman47544

[Legend]

The latest Bachmann Times club magazine makes interesting reading in this regard. Despite Kader being the "exclusive" manufacturer of Bachmann products, the production of some parts (and the boxes) is sub-contracted. It seems likely that Hornby's arrangements with its factories will be similar, so it may not just be a case of booking a production slot with factory X to produce, say, 1,000 Pecketts but production slots in other factories will also be needed for the subcontracted parts. This would make it much more difficult to increase the production run at factory X as the subcontractors would also need to be able to increase their production runs of the parts at the same time.

But it's the same with most factories. Very few make items entirely from scratch, they outsource some parts and buy in others. Buying in packaging is normal.The key is to make sure you have flexibility to increase or reduce numbers . Another good thing is to have alternate sources of supply in case one sub contractor or producer can't provide material in time. An option that Bachmann , being owned by Kader, don't appear to have.

 

Hornby buys in all its models from Third Party Producers at arms length i.e. The producer has to make his profit as well as Hornby. Bachmann is vertically integrated in that Kader ,the manufacturer, own them. In theory this should make it more efficient to produce goods or make more profit if selling at the same level of price as Hornby because all the profit is retained within the Kader Empire rather than paying third parties.

 

So there are differences

Edited June 22, 2017 by Legend

[Budgie]

Who does the subcontracting, i.e. is it Hornby/Bachmann or the manufacturer who is making the item for them? If, as I suspect, it is the latter then there should be no worries for Hornby as the slot they book will take account of the subcontracted items.

[Compound2632]

Bachmann is vertically integrated in that Kader ,the manufacturer, own them. In theory this should make it more efficient to produce goods

 

Doesn't seem to impact product development times though! The Hornby SECR-liveried H Class will have been and gone before the Bachmann birdcage carriages are upon us... (Other examples could be cited - just check the start date of this thread!)

[Legend]

Doesn't seem to impact product development times though! The Hornby SECR-liveried H Class will have been and gone before the Bachmann birdcage carriages are upon us... (Other examples could be cited - just check the start date of this thread!)

Yes you're right. I did say in theory!

[johnd]

Doesn't seem to impact product development times though! The Hornby SECR-liveried H Class will have been and gone before the Bachmann birdcage carriages are upon us... (Other examples could be cited - just check the start date of this thread!

 

Could it be that Hornby have already done some research and development in most models before they actually announce to the world. 

 

Remember for those with eagle like eyes the Peckett was first spotted in the background on video of another (can't remember which ) before it was announced to the world and resulted in its release date being brought forward.

[Edwardian]

I can see this as a perennial favourite that will, I hope, go through a number of iterations.

 

Perhaps variations in the cab etc will be attempted; I've not pulled mine apart to see how Hornby put it together. For my part, I am content to see the early cab. These are models of 1890s prototypes.  IMHO, the early cab makes them quite flexible.  New they might have been bought by the larger concerns, but second-hand they could have ended up almost anywhere. The corresponding disadvantage of the Hudswell Clarke that was announced sometime ago by another manufacturer was the later cab style that limited it to inter-war and possibly later examples.  

 

As I greatly prefer the dome style worn by Dodo and the H&P, I will give the forthcoming Lilleshall model a miss, but I would fully expect further variants that would tempt me in due course.

 

The point being is that we all have individual preferences, but clearly the subject is popular enough for Hornby to keep producing variants from which we can pick and choose.

 

The question is, how many W4s compatible with the tooling we have seen were there, about which sufficient information is known from which to produce a model?

 

I could go on buying these indefinitely!   

[Caledonian]

I can see this as a perennial favourite that will, I hope, go through a number of iterations.

 

Perhaps variations in the cab etc will be attempted; I've not pulled mine apart to see how Hornby put it together. For my part, I am content to see the early cab. These are models of 1890s prototypes.  IMHO, the early cab makes them quite flexible.  New they might have been bought by the larger concerns, but second-hand they could have ended up almost anywhere. The corresponding disadvantage of the Hudswell Clarke that was announced sometime ago by another manufacturer was the later cab style that limited it to inter-war and possibly later examples.  

 

As I greatly prefer the dome style worn by Dodo and the H&P, I will give the forthcoming Lilleshall model a miss, but I would fully expect further variants that would tempt me in due course.

 

The point being is that we all have individual preferences, but clearly the subject is popular enough for Hornby to keep producing variants from which we can pick and choose.

 

The question is, how many W4s compatible with the tooling we have seen were there, about which sufficient information is known from which to produce a model?

 

I could go on buying these indefinitely!   

 

I think that it rather depends on the philosophy. It has been pointed out that the late-cab W4s also feature higher running plates - flush with the top of the buffer beam and Hornby therefore reckon that there's no quick fix on the tooling.

 

This means that unless you're prepared to overlook a fairly major discrepancy its not going to be possible to produce certain known variants, such as the Ayr Harbour Board/G&SWR/LMS one because they have the high running plate and late cab.

 

On the other hand, if you're not bothered about recreating or redeploying historical individuals, but just want a high quality model of an industrial shunting loco, then it really doesn't matter. Its a Peckett, and as you said the early cab as modelled by Hornby has a greater lifespan. 

[tomparryharry]

It would appear that Hornby have already sold out their allocations of the black edition of the Peckett. I anticipate much wailing & gnashing of teeth. I would hope however, that Hornby keep a high quality, slightly lower distribution. I guess it's all a question of mathematics, but I do hope that the reception gained from the Peckett's allow Hornby some leeway to bring out more higher end models. I must admit that the Lilleshall model doesn't 'do' it for me, but the Dodo? That's something else. I would gather that Hornby have the willingness to go other producers on a toe-to-toe basis, especially in terms of fidelity & quality, and I would think that bodes well for the hobby.

 

Ian.

[Edwardian]

It would appear that Hornby have already sold out their allocations of the black edition of the Peckett. I anticipate much wailing & gnashing of teeth. I would hope however, that Hornby keep a high quality, slightly lower distribution. I guess it's all a question of mathematics, but I do hope that the reception gained from the Peckett's allow Hornby some leeway to bring out more higher end models. I must admit that the Lilleshall model doesn't 'do' it for me, but the Dodo? That's something else. I would gather that Hornby have the willingness to go other producers on a toe-to-toe basis, especially in terms of fidelity & quality, and I would think that bodes well for the hobby.

 

Ian.

 

Sorry, but I feel the need for a gratuitous picture of little Dodo at this point, even though we've already seen plenty of other pictures!

[Compound2632]

Sorry, but I feel the need for a gratuitous picture of little Dodo at this point, even though we've already seen plenty of other pictures!

 

About time too - though you're aping my style! I'll take that as flattery.

[Edwardian]

About time too - though you're aping my style! I'll take that as flattery.

 

Aha, yes, albeit unconsciously.  I really will need some pukka H&P wagons like yours.  And a very nice job, too. If you don't mind, what were your sources of information?

[Compound2632]

Aha, yes, albeit unconsciously.  I really will need some pukka H&P wagons like yours.  And a very nice job, too. If you don't mind, what were your sources of information?

 

See this post - scroll down past the tar wagon (progress on which I should report soon). I am very grateful for the information volunteered by wagonman from his research in the archives of the Birmingham C&W Co.

[Edwardian]

See this post - scroll down past the tar wagon (progress on which I should report soon). I am very grateful for the information volunteered by wagonman from his research in the archives of the Birmingham C&W Co.

 

Brilliant, thanks. 

[tomparryharry]

Sorry, but I feel the need for a gratuitous picture of little Dodo at this point, even though we've already seen plenty of other pictures!

I feel a touch of the 2-handed sword here. The bar has been raised a quite way up with Dodo, and the dilemma exists, should the bar be lowered. I'd guess it's down to Hornby to either keep the quality & fidelity, or let the standards slip. I know where I'd go, but I'm not in their decision process. Given that Hornby have an extensive back catalogue, it's not beyond the whit of man to think that Hornby might well re-release a new model, based upon newer standards, which meets all the requirements of quality, fidelity, desireability, and, most importantly, is profitable for Hornby.

 

Ian.

[PaulRhB]

There's no point doing a railroad version when they already have the Pug plus numerous versions of the basic 0-4-0. The Peckett has plenty of options without dumbing it down and adding more tooling for less renumeration.

I'll admit to being surprised that they chose three for launch followed by just one for the second release. Even with pre orders that would surely highlight how popular the showy liveries were in comparison to the plain MSC one. I thought we might get a mid year extra fancy version but no sign yet

So great to get Lillesha,l but to me a strange choice as a solo release, maybe someone from Hornby could be asked why they chose to limit it for the second release on behalf of BRM for the mag?

Plain black doesn't trigger the ooh shiny impulse so I'll wait and hope for more gaudy versions in 2018

Edited June 23, 2017 by PaulRhB

[bacon butty]

Looking at the Peckett and making more etc. I do wonder if profit margin may come into it - the loco is relatively low cost compared to some loco's to buy and the first releases especially Dodo and H&P had quite complex liveries to apply. The black livery this year will be easier to apply and less scrap will be produced when making these. It would be interesting to know how much longer it takes to make the H&P compared to this years black one and how much extra the cost of the printing plates are. As far as I can remember non of the RTR manufacturers charge more for different liveries no matter how complicated.

As an example of this the class 50 diesel in BR blue is about £50 more to purchase than the Peckett was in H&P blue - I can guess which was hardy to manufacter.

This applies to the Bachmann "C" class in SECR livery where people have wanted the original made again since it first sold out really quickly - if they made another batch tomorrow they would quickly sell out I'm sure.

Interestingly a manufacturer will charge £10 more for weathering a loco.

 

Stuart

[PaulRhB]

They do charge more for extra printing if you compare the Railroad and standard Tornado plus others.

Plain black will be slightly cheaper but they are still doing several processes as it has printing and at least red paint too. Similarly you paid a premium for the full SE&CR livery although they called it a limited edition which demands higher prices too compared to the simpler livery on the unlimited SE&CR version.

[Edwardian]

I would like to thank Tim for extending to me the opportunity to acquire a locomotive that I thought I had missed out on and would never own.  I would also like to thank Compound again for pointing me to his and Wagonman's posts on H&P wagons.

 

I hope I am forgiven for posting a few pictures, even though they are simply OOB shots.  I do find that two Pecketts are better than one, as they certainly look very good as a pair.  If someone were to produce the Bass fleet, that would result in a severe financial crisis; I can resist everything except temptation.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[adb968008]

 

I could go on buying these indefinitely!

 

By not over cooking it in the first few years, I'm sure this is what Hornby are hoping you will do.

[Edwardian]

By not over cooking it in the first few years, I'm sure this is what Hornby are hoping you will do.

 

And saves me having to afford many of them all at once.  Works for me, if it works for Hornby!

[adb968008]

And saves me having to afford many of them all at once. Works for me, if it works for Hornby!

They just need to start doing this with the rest of the range.

It feels like they did so with the Merchant Navy, but months on it's not universally sold out, despite its predictions and expectations.

I'm guessing price is the point too, though in my opinion the choice of some prototypes / variation was questionable in demand, on a first pass they make sense, but on a tightening market some buyers who "must have" may be constrained to wait until the "really must have" is released.

 

Colourful Tank engines at less than £100 have a larger playing field, being easier to afford and get past the Mrs (accounting, aesthetics and the "oh go on then", it's small so she thinks it's cheap factor).

 

But the manufacturers are still reluctant to play., I reckon there's room for at least 3 or 4 more industrial prototypes (things like a Hudswell Clarke, Manning Wardle, Andrew Barclay etc) before it narrows.

With no other announcements (known to be making progress, though the Dapol B4 could play), Hornby owns this space for at least 3 years, at which point they make a few tooling tweaks, and as the established one, will likely get a following beyond, like the terrier...

Edited June 24, 2017 by adb968008