Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Mad Carew Too]

While I wish any project well . I shudder to think of the business outcomes that could result. Oh and when the lawyers tell you shareholders agreements are neccessary , I shudder again. I've successfully been involved in two startups and when you have to bang a shareholders agreement on the table and or enforce it in the courts, the business will be long dead. Private people , especially in a hobby business will quite happily shout " sue me " and continue to be difficult

 

I personally think there is too much emphasis on the acquiring of moulds , the talk about injection moulding machines. The world is full of contract manufactures , people who , like , actually know how to run these things. It really matter not that it's produced in Bombay or Bognor in reality. The issue isn't Brexit or anything else , the U.K. Along with the developed world , simply isn't the place to make cheap stuff in a lockup , it's a place to make high quality dear stuff.

 

If people can source capital within their group, surely the key is to commission new CAD , commission tooling and simply reissue some of these designs to modern standards . An example is what happened in recent years in Irish outline 00 modelling , where a whole host of small suppliers now exist , both new rtr locos , new finescale rtr wagons , along side etched kits , resin etc, all serving a very niche market indeed all at the premium end of the market ( there's not a 15 quid wagon to be seen )

 

Hence my view that the idea of buying life expired moulds , and loading them into , life expired 2nd hand machines, seems utterly daft to me. It's in effect repeating exactly what CC tried ( what did Einstein say about insanity )

 

Money men should stick to providing money , use it to fund the creation and production of new detailed kits , if it doesn't stack up , it doesn't stack up.

 

Distribution into bricks and mortar establishments is old hat. The world has gone online, nor can you easily have both distributions strategies , as Hornby found out. Today a kit business should have a good website , modern payment. Processes , auto email updates, shipping updates etc. Etc. , all doable for reasonable money. Keep the retail margin in the production unit. Forget about retailer distribution. ( because you will give away 30-50'% of your margin and you will generate horrible channel conflict )

 

The issue is to prevent the disappearance of kits , not neccessaryily the maintenance of old moulds and machine run by some lad that will work in a lockup for tuppemce.

 

Do it right, sell them at the expensive end of the market , the evidence is there are plenty that will pay.

 

Whereas, I would never go into business with anyone who refused to enter into a shareholder agreement!

 

Lawyers are a symptom of human nature, not the cause of the problems.  In my experience very often the sensible and mature arrangements lawyers pen can avoid conflict, bullying or exploitation.

 

Good governance and a proper basis of agreement is not a sign of weakness or symptom of failure.  

Edited January 24, 2017 by Mad Carew Too

[hayfield]

Generate profits yes,

 

Take the profits out of the business,

 

NO

 

Reinvest to improve / update the range on a rolling basis, yes

 

 

I have sent Andy a pm to this effect so just awaiting his permission to create such a thread.

 

I am someone with no axe to grind other than not being able to buy kits, in fact I have been able to buy a few bits at the last few shows we have both been at and have been extremely pleased with what I bought and the chap at the stand seemed quite decent

 

I was pleased at seeing a vast improvement in etched kit stocks, but dismayed at the dwindling stocks of plastic kit (coach) parts. I have sent an email enquiring what parts can be supplied, sadly received no reply resulting in no order replaced

 

With the (very) little I know to me in simple terms it looks like the kits (providing the moulds are usable) cannot be made available due to a lack of funds to either buy a machine to make them or get them made by an outside contractor. Despite a few issues regarding the ordering process there still seems to be a following of folk wanting these kits. To me it seems logical for perhaps some form of limited joint venture which could possibly kick start the range again

 

I see Ian has made a gesture of assistance, which sadly seems for whatever reason not been followed up. If you do have the ability to discuss matters at least it would be nice to know what the position is with the ranges and what help if any is needed.

[Edwardian]

While I wish any project well . I shudder to think of the business outcomes that could result. Oh and when the lawyers tell you shareholders agreements are neccessary , I shudder again. I've successfully been involved in two startups and when you have to bang a shareholders agreement on the table and or enforce it in the courts, the business will be long dead. Private people , especially in a hobby business will quite happily shout " sue me " and continue to be difficult

 

I personally think there is too much emphasis on the acquiring of moulds , the talk about injection moulding machines. The world is full of contract manufactures , people who , like , actually know how to run these things. It really matter not that it's produced in Bombay or Bognor in reality. The issue isn't Brexit or anything else , the U.K. Along with the developed world , simply isn't the place to make cheap stuff in a lockup , it's a place to make high quality dear stuff.

 

If people can source capital within their group, surely the key is to commission new CAD , commission tooling and simply reissue some of these designs to modern standards . An example is what happened in recent years in Irish outline 00 modelling , where a whole host of small suppliers now exist , both new rtr locos , new finescale rtr wagons , along side etched kits , resin etc, all serving a very niche market indeed all at the premium end of the market ( there's not a 15 quid wagon to be seen )

 

Hence my view that the idea of buying life expired moulds , and loading them into , life expired 2nd hand machines, seems utterly daft to me. It's in effect repeating exactly what CC tried ( what did Einstein say about insanity )

 

Money men should stick to providing money , use it to fund the creation and production of new detailed kits , if it doesn't stack up , it doesn't stack up.

 

Distribution into bricks and mortar establishments is old hat. The world has gone online, nor can you easily have both distributions strategies , as Hornby found out. Today a kit business should have a good website , modern payment. Processes , auto email updates, shipping updates etc. Etc. , all doable for reasonable money. Keep the retail margin in the production unit. Forget about retailer distribution. ( because you will give away 30-50'% of your margin and you will generate horrible channel conflict )

 

The issue is to prevent the disappearance of kits , not neccessaryily the maintenance of old moulds and machine run by some lad that will work in a lockup for tuppemce.

 

Do it right, sell them at the expensive end of the market , the evidence is there are plenty that will pay.

 

Goodness, quite a few points.

 

Admittedly, I tend to see businesses that have gone wrong, but my experience is that entrepreneurs, full of 'bounce', who dismiss lawyers and shareholders agreements in this way tend to prove to be bullies and cause their only problems.  Those who accept their point of view tend to prove naive and get shafted.

 

I just don't think it's either big or clever to approach commercial relationships in this cavalier way.

 

As to your other points, I think Coopercraft will prove a waste of time, but there is both the possibility of reproducing some of what they did and/or taking on some of the more vibrant ranges that, nevertheless, need buyers. 

 

I think it profoundly unwise, and rather faddish, to dismiss bricks and mortar points of sale.  They have their place among a range of ways of selling.

 

Where I think you might have an idea worth exploring is contracting out.

 

Anyway, don't have much time for the conversation today.

[jonhall]

So you’ve lined up proprietor, manager and supervisor, which seem to me to leave a bit of a gap.... worker? To make the existing Coopercraft range would seem to need injection moulding knowledge that could be bought in by temporary consultant, but to make an ongoing business you need someone capable of extending the range by designing and cutting new tools, and that is a highly skilled, highly specialised (and presumably highly paid) job - why would someone with that skill set work for you, vs set themselves up in business with a cheap moulding machine?

​Jon

[Edwardian]

 

So you’ve lined up proprietor, manager and supervisor, which seem to me to leave a bit of a gap.... worker? To make the existing Coopercraft range would seem to need injection moulding knowledge that could be bought in by temporary consultant, but to make an ongoing business you need someone capable of extending the range by designing and cutting new tools, and that is a highly skilled, highly specialised (and presumably highly paid) job - why would someone with that skill set work for you, vs set themselves up in business with a cheap moulding machine?

​Jon

 

 

Not sure it is fair to say that anyone has lined up anything yet.  There is an awful lot to research and to consider, and conversations to be had, I would say.

 

Thanks for your support, though.

[hayfield]

One with a population of over 60 million.

 

 

What I'm saying is why are those people buying those kits rather than buying a model railway kit? It's not price as many plastic kits cost more than an RTR locomotive.

 

 

And why are people buying RTR rather than buying a kit?

 

 

It's an established fact there is a large market for model railways and there is a large market for kits. Then why isn't there a large market for model railway kits?

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

There was a thread where the number of kits made to those bought was quite a big gap, there are quite a few like me who like to hoard/get a bargain so depending on the buying/disposal cycle prices can be either high or plenty of items available.

 

Just look at eBay and the number of model railway items available, there are 236,356 ( UK Listed) items currently available at this moment. Granted not many are kits but with 10,000 to 20,000 lists per day, it can equally be stated that there is a market for these items and rare items can fetch a premium, so the kits can survive without being at rock bottom prices. If kits were more widely available I guess the hoarding would stop so prices may have to be increased to maintain profitability. All this proves there is a market, but not whether it could be a profitable venture

[Horsetan]

....One question to all.......Would this preclude overseas investors/modellers??...

Mmmm, a company based offshore?

[Clive Mortimore]

There was a thread where the number of kits made to those bought was quite a big gap, there are quite a few like me who like to hoard/get a bargain so depending on the buying/disposal cycle prices can be either high or plenty of items available.

 

Just look at eBay and the number of model railway items available, there are 236,356 ( UK Listed) items currently available at this moment. Granted not many are kits but with 10,000 to 20,000 lists per day, it can equally be stated that there is a market for these items and rare items can fetch a premium, so the kits can survive without being at rock bottom prices. If kits were more widely available I guess the hoarding would stop so prices may have to be increased to maintain profitability. All this proves there is a market, but not whether it could be a profitable venture

Hi John

 

I am not too sure what you are on about?

 

Buy and selling of second hand unmade kits on E-bay or club stands is a different ball game to the inability of buying newly manufactured kits or the prospect of manufacturing new kits.

 

 

 

So you’ve lined up proprietor, manager and supervisor, which seem to me to leave a bit of a gap.... worker? To make the existing Coopercraft range would seem to need injection moulding knowledge that could be bought in by temporary consultant, but to make an ongoing business you need someone capable of extending the range by designing and cutting new tools, and that is a highly skilled, highly specialised (and presumably highly paid) job - why would someone with that skill set work for you, vs set themselves up in business with a cheap moulding machine?

​Jon

 

Hi Jon

 

You have hit the trackpin bang on the head, anyone with the skills required to make a range viable would be in business already.

 

The only alternative I can think of for new build is finding a plastic moulding company who also make their own moulds and commissioning them. ££££££££££££

 

Obtaining a range of moulds of old kits sounds very noble but the reality is they don't sell vary fast and in large quantities. New do but existing ones don't.

[Roy Langridge]

Mmmm, a company based offshore?

Only if you want to spend all your time being audited - especially if it is not for profit. That combination would ring alarm bells with HMRC.

 

Roy

[hayfield]

Clive

 

Just the fact that is the market as big as we think, also if we know a kit is hard to find we tend to hoard them thus increasing the price, as Bill has informed us most sales are for the kits when first released, then its a trickle of sales. Are a few people chasing certain kits pushing the price up. Let's face it Horsetan is a one man crusade on Portiscap's, the Goldfinger of the model train world  

[Horsetan]

... Horsetan is a one man crusade on Portiscap's, the Goldfinger of the model train world

Choose your next witticism carefully. It may be your last....  

Edited January 24, 2017 by Horsetan

[Craigw]

Clive

 

Just the fact that is the market as big as we think, also if we know a kit is hard to find we tend to hoard them thus increasing the price, as Bill has informed us most sales are for the kits when first released, then its a trickle of sales. Are a few people chasing certain kits pushing the price up. Let's face it Horsetan is a one man crusade on Portiscap's, the Goldfinger of the model train world  

 

I think you are spot on with the pricing of hard to find items, remembering it only takes two people to start a bidding war. As I remarked before, I do not think the Coopercraft kits are *that* good. The big loss is that they are all early wagons or the only available GWR cattle wagon. Having said that, if Bill Bedford (as an example) was to produce a 4 or 5 plank GWR wagon then I would by them in quantity without hesitation. Personally, instead of speculating about acquiring a range that is probably not even for sale I think it is better to look to newcomers.

 

Craig W

[Oldddudders]

the Goldfinger of the model train world

I think we've all heard quite enough about Pu*sy Galore in recent days.

 

I also note references to lawyers, but am aware that more than one is contributing to this thread. And that's not counting the barrack-room variety!

Edited January 24, 2017 by Oldddudders

[Edwardian]

Ian,

I said this a while back!

 

Everyone seems to be so busy with ideas a lot don't seem to realise this has been gone through before in ANOTHER thread on Coopercraft.

IF, and I do say IF, there is a thought here, to try to resurrect the Coopercraft Range, surely the FIRST thing to do is see if He is in the market to sell in the first instance.

 

Para mentioned, (if I read correctly) he was looking at another range that may be on the market in the not to distant future.

That would seem to be the most viable starting point for a new venture to move forward with rather one that "appears" to be languishing in the doldrums.

 

Edwardians idea of about 3 as a management, seems the most logical with anyone else interested being like shareholders (not necessarily paid with a financial dividend but discounts).

 

One question to all.......Would this preclude overseas investors/modellers??

 

Khris

 

Sorry, I overlooked the question.

 

There is no difficulty in people from overseas investing in a UK business, so far as I can see.

 

That is not the same thing as an offshore company, BTW.  There is, I think, no advantage here to an offshore company.  Typically, offshore companies do not file very much publically, such as registers of directors and shareholders or accounts.

 

It means they are discrete, but who here would want to disguise their involvement and why?  Unless you want to go to prison, they are also tax neutral, as the company will need to pay UK corporation tax because it trades in the UK; its jurisdiction of domicile is irrelevant.

 

So, we can park the notion of an offshore company. 

 

I imagine that we are only concerned with a company incorporated under the laws of England & Wales.  Scotland is a foreign jurisdiction for these purposes, and, to an extent, so is NI!

 

I see no reason why a non-UK resident cannot own shares in a UK entity.  Your accountant will no doubt advise you of the personal tax implications.

 

By the way, if anyone is considering buying an existing range, I suggest entering into a sale and purchase agreement in relation to the assets, not the shares of the company.  You want the company's assets (stock, equipment, goodwill, book-debt etc), not its liabilities.

 

And make sure TUPE doesn't apply!

Edited January 24, 2017 by Edwardian

[Dunsignalling]

I remember reading an interview, years ago, in which a kit manufacturer stated that, in his experience, sales of a new kit in the first 12 months after release account for around 75% of the total that will sell over the lifetime of the tooling. 

 

On that basis, given how long the kits under discussion were on the market, I doubt they have much commercial mileage left in them even if the moulds are still functional.

 

The number of contributors bemoaning the loss of these brands is quite small and I am beginning to wonder to what degree this thread is driven by a combination of:

 

[1] Those who didn't bother to add any/enough of these kits to their "stash" when they were readily available.  

 

[2] Those whose wandering interests have only recently alighted on the prototypes represented in these ranges.

 

[3] Newcomers/returnees to the hobby [EDIT, thanks for pointing it out, Edwardian]

 

Either way, any speculation about tax liability falling upon those who might take on this project perhaps looks more aspirational than fearful. 

 

John

Edited January 24, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

I see Ian has made a gesture of assistance, which sadly seems for whatever reason not been followed up. If you do have the ability to discuss matters at least it would be nice to know what the position is with the ranges and what help if any is needed.

 

 

I think contributors might be assuming that more is going on than might be the case.  Though there might be a number of private conversations going on for all I know, it is more than I know that anyone has committed to doing anything.

 

There is an awful lot for anyone contemplating a commercial venture to consider and, I imagine, many conversations to be had.

 

I would imagine, though, that as, if and when anyone does start to take matters forward, they would be most wise to beat a path to Ian Kirk's door and beg him to come on board as a consultant.

 

I certainly would.

 

 

I remember reading an interview, years ago, in which a kit manufacturer stated that, in his experience, sales of a new kit in the first 12 months after release account for around 75% of the total that will sell over the lifetime of the tooling. 

 

On that basis, given how long the kits under discussion were on the market, I doubt they have much commercial mileage left in them even if the moulds are still functional.

 

The number of contributors bemoaning the loss of these brands is quite small and I am beginning to wonder to what degree this thread is driven by a combination of:

 

[1] Those who didn't bother to add any/enough of these kits to their "stash" when they were readily available.  

 

[2] Those whose wandering interests have only recently alighted on the prototypes represented in these ranges.

 

John

 

[1] Yeah, the stupid b*st8rds, serve 'em right!

 

[2] Yeah, fickle b*st8rds, s0d 'em!

 

Or, possibly,

 

[3] New modellers? Returnees? People exploring a new and earlier modelling period? People simply younger than you?

 

I did not think wanting to buy these kits was really a subject for criticism, but I constantly live and learn!  

 

Anyway, really must turn to what I am supposed to be doing.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Edwardian

[Dunsignalling]

I think contributors might be assuming that more is going on than might be the case.  Though there might be a number of private conversations going on, it is more than I know that anyone has committed to doing anything.

 

There is an awful lot for anyone contemplating a commercial venture to consider and, I imagine, many conversations to be had.

 

I would imagine, though, that as, if and when anyone does start to take matters forward, they would be most wise to beat a path to Ian Kirk's door and beg him to come on board as a consultant.

 

I certainly would.

 

 

 

[1] Yeah, the stupid b*st8rds, serve 'em right!

 

[2] Yeah, fickle b*st8rds, s0d 'em!

 

Or, possibly,

 

[3] New modellers? Returnees? People exploring a new and earlier modelling period? People simply younger than you?

 

I did not think wanting to buy these kits was really a subject for criticism, but I constantly live and learn!  

 

Anyway, really must turn to what I am supposed to be doing.

I'm still looking for the odd Slater's kit that went off the market before I returned to the hobby in the early 1990s, so my critique was not intended to be personal or harsh to the groups mentioned.

 

Yes, I am one of the "typical" customers who buy the 75% of those kits that interest me in the early months after release; simply because experience has taught me that what you expect to be still available when you want one, often won't be. Moulds don't improve with age, either.

 

I just intended to point out that these kits will, after all this time, be of limited/no interest to many others. 

 

However, I still consider that any idea of resurrecting the brands combined under the Coopercraft banner is probably as ill-advised and/or over-optimistic as the way they came together in the first place. 

 

John

Edited January 24, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

I'm still looking for the odd kit that went off the market before I returned to the hobby in the early 1990s, so my critique was not intended to be personal or harsh to the groups mentioned.

 

I just intended to point out that these kits will, after all this time, be of limited/no interest to many others. 

 

However, I still consider that any idea of resurrecting the brands combined under the Coopercraft banner is probably as ill-advised and/or over-optimistic as the way they came together in the first place. 

 

John

 

Oh all right, fair enough!

 

I suspect that you are right about the CC ranges.  Of course one could not be sure until it was properly checked out, but my suspicion would be that you would be proved correct.

 

I do not expect that anyone would get that far, however; there has been more than a suggestion that the owner would not be realistic about matters.  I gather that previous attempts to offer assistance did not bear fruit, and there are suggestions he would not sell.  He is clearly not an easy person to deal with inasmuch as he is known to be fairly taciturn, according to many posts here. I also suspect there is now too great a disparity between the actual worth of the business and the owner's perception of its value.

 

The only way to know for sure is to ask the owner.  If you can find him, that is.

 

Given the cost of continuing any range, let alone a potentially 'life-expired' one like CC, it may be very difficult for the likes of C&L, Parkside, ABS and Cambrian to sell at the sort of price that they expect on exit.

 

Has anyone considered purchase of a range by way of part deferred consideration or granting the vendor a class of dividend paying shares, or shares with a redemption mechanism, in the NewCo purchasing the range?

 

On that basis:

 

- The upfront cost is less for the purchaser

 

- The vendor waits for some of the money, spread over time, but gets more than he might otherwise.  I suggest a short period, for a variety of reasons, say 2 years following completion.

 

- It helps tie the vendor in for the transitional period, giving him a vested interest in sticking around and making sure things succeed.  

Edited January 24, 2017 by Edwardian

[Semi Fast]

I am a 'returnee'.  Because I built many, many Airfix kits as a child, I feel comfortable building plastic kits now and hope it leads to other 'proper' modelling skills later.  I would dearly love to see the Coopercraft and Slaters 4mm ranges available again - or a new range covering similar prototypes.  I think it would be difficult to justify as a business,  but it seems there would be enough interest to thoroughly explore the options around some sort of cooperative/not for profit venture.  It doesn't have to be a threat to the Bill Bedford-type market - I certainly wouldn't practice my skills on that type of kit; I'd only tackle that quality once I knew what I was doing!

 

The optimists on this thread have my support.  Nothing new got started by people not trying.

[Horsetan]

....The only way to know for sure is to ask the owner.  If you can find him, that is.

 

OT, but this sounds like a job for:

 

 

 

.... Nothing new got started by people not trying.

 

At present it looks like the people who want to try are being put off before they even start.

 

Meanwhile, kits that people clearly want continue not to be produced.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Horsetan

[modelpara]

I have created a new thread here for the project.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/119218-safe-guarding-model-ranges-for-future/

[Ian Kirk]

Ian

Given all the 'cutting & shutting' possible with your (former) LNER coach range that have appeared in various articles and on this forum I am surprised that no one has thought of producing the 'panels' needed to do this as a seperate product. It is surely cheaper to do this (in terms of producing moulds etc) than producing full length coach sides - a sort of 'mix & match' coach kit, or am I missing something?

Hi,

This is exactly what I do in O gauge. The "cutting and shutting" in 4mm scale gave me the idea to sell these "pre cut up" which solved the problem of making O gauge on a relatively small machine and made the toolmaking much easier. Instead of engraving the detail for say eight doors on a side I only had to do this once, the auto machine makes lots and the customer cements them up into a side with the panels that go with them. Each door separate and the joints were they are in real life. Same door dozens of coach types. I think that it might be a bit fiddly in 4mm though.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Horsetan]

....exactly what I do in O gauge. The "cutting and shutting" in 4mm scale gave me the idea to sell these "pre cut up" which solved the problem of making O gauge on a relatively small machine and made the toolmaking much easier. Instead of engraving the detail for say eight doors on a side I only had to do this once, the auto machine makes lots and the customer cements them up into a side with the panels that go with them. Each door separate and the joints were they are in real life. Same door dozens of coach types. I think that it might be a bit fiddly in 4mm though.....

 

I seem to recall that DCKits employed similar methodology for their DMU kits when they were still in production, so perhaps not that fiddly.

[Coach bogie]

I remember reading an interview, years ago, in which a kit manufacturer stated that, in his experience, sales of a new kit in the first 12 months after release account for around 75% of the total that will sell over the lifetime of the tooling. 

 

 

 

An additional factor is the unavailability of some models is the 'everyone who wants one, has one' scenario and it is not worth having dead stock.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited January 24, 2017 by Coach bogie

[BG John]

An additional factor is the unavailability of some models is the 'everyone who wants one, has one' scenario and it is not worth having dead stock.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Which is fine for people who were around when the product was released, and who spend a lifetime modelling one subject. Or those who just buy stuff whether they have a use for it of not. But it doesn't help newcomers to the hobby after that, or people who like to model a variety of subjects, and at the time had no plans to model anything that needed that product. In fact it hampers the latter's efforts, as they have little or no chance of a new version of what they want becoming available.