raymw Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I find this sort of funny. Almost, ever since Paul took over the coopercraft/other range, folk have been moaning on here about not getting goods or refund - I've pm's from Oct 2013 relating to the topic. All the threats wrt trading standards, small claim courts, etc., afaik, have come to nothing. As long as you behave like a bunch of wusses, he will carry on the way he does, why need he change, you've done nothing about him? It seems, you're all waiting for someone else to sort out the problem, hope the range will be sold on, or he'll decide to alter his web site, suddenly repair his moulding machine, etc, etc., without you creating the situation for a change needing to be made. You generally get what you deserve, imnsho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted March 23, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2017 I find this sort of funny. Almost, ever since Paul took over the coopercraft/other range, folk have been moaning on here about not getting goods or refund - I've pm's from Oct 2013 relating to the topic. All the threats wrt trading standards, small claim courts, etc., afaik, have come to nothing. As long as you behave like a bunch of wusses, he will carry on the way he does, why need he change, you've done nothing about him? It seems, you're all waiting for someone else to sort out the problem, hope the range will be sold on, or he'll decide to alter his web site, suddenly repair his moulding machine, etc, etc., without you creating the situation for a change needing to be made. You generally get what you deserve, imnsho. 'Paul' - you know the person in question, perhaps? So it's OK for fraud to take place, and it's the fault of the innocent potential customer who get's ripped off, but who hasn't the means or conviction to take restorative action? A very odd point of view, IMHO ! Do you share his morals? Regards, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I wonder what Coopercrafts bank manager(s) thinks about all this? P Edited March 23, 2017 by Porcy Mane 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I've met him once or twice, I've visited his 'works', I've commented over the years on this forum about the situation, and like many have suggested means of recovery, but others can not be bothered. fwiw, I've never bought anything from him, but I've reclaimed payments for one other guy, who was unable to phone him. Afaik, Paul has no morals that you may understand, I do not share them, he is from Somerset, I from Devon. The way of the world is such that 'rip -offs occur quite often, as well you should know. You have to decide if it worth doing something about it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I find this sort of funny. Almost, ever since Paul took over the coopercraft/other range, folk have been moaning on here about not getting goods or refund - I've pm's from Oct 2013 relating to the topic. All the threats wrt trading standards, small claim courts, etc., afaik, have come to nothing. As long as you behave like a bunch of wusses, he will carry on the way he does, why need he change, you've done nothing about him? It seems, you're all waiting for someone else to sort out the problem, hope the range will be sold on, or he'll decide to alter his web site, suddenly repair his moulding machine, etc, etc., without you creating the situation for a change needing to be made. You generally get what you deserve, imnsho. I've tried to do something about it previously; with no effect. I wouldn't order anything from him hence I wouldn't be in a position to enter into legal processes. However it's unfair to brand others as 'wusses' or similar. Many of the losses are small and the process to reclaim them cheap but time-consuming. Is it really worth it to someone who's lost out - at least they've warned others of their experiences. If you've lost £20 would you spend another £25 on an online small claim in the hope that you'd get it all back or write it off to experience? It's wholly wrong in my personal opinion that he places himself in a position where he permits a transaction he cannot honour. Trading Standards won't be particularly interested and they'd push it towards a civil matter; they have bigger fish to fry. I have taken the unusual step of speaking to his web hosting provider explaining the situation and that transactions are being made, payments taken through WorldPay as a gateway and customers are not being supplied with goods. They will be contacting Paul Dunn to discuss the matter and offer assistance as appropriate. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 If you've lost £20 would you spend another £25 on an online small claim in the hope that you'd get it all back or write it off to experience? A few years back, I decided to only take on 'battles' that I could win, never mind the amounts involved, and not waste my energies in merely complaining. The first was a refund from the Royal Mail wrt a late delivery special delivery - value about a fiver. That took about three weeks and a few phone calls, their first offer they had the wrong amount. When I came across similar non supply of goods/whatever, I would quote that experience to the debtor, indicating to them that I would get repayment from them, so they may as well pay up and have done with it. I realise that the Royal Mail is a different organisation than a sole trader, but if you are determined to get a refund from Mr. Dunn, then you will get it, based on the theory that it's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil. It should not be necessary, but for the past 4 or 5 years that is the reality of the situation. 'Warning of others', I don't see that as being much use, since only after the deal goes wrong, do folk look into what others said, else 5 years after the original event, it would have stopped happening, unless they are 'conducting research'. I've mentioned many times to 'only buy from him at a show, where you can get the items, not mail order', or words to that effect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) His little stand at the Nottingham (East Midlands) Show last weekend had plastic sides for most (at least) of the old Ian Kirk LNER range, and some of the old Slaters MR coaches (I don't know what that comprised so can't comment further). And they all appeared to be in "fresh" packaging (i.e. looking new, uncreased and not at all tatty). What there didn't appear to be available was roofs, underframes, bogies etc. This suggests there may be some truth in the stories about problems with his (now-legendary) "machine" and/or some - but not necessarily all - of the moulds. But if those are indeed "new production" sides, he has to be getting them from somewhere - even if perhaps from a different "machine" or even via a sub-contractor. As I've said elsewhere, the sensible thing would now be to regard these sides as merely a 'scratchbuilding aid' or as something for people who feel they can't work with etched brass sides to use to replace Hornby Gresley sides and create Diagram Numbers that are otherwise unavailable. But the idea of being able to buy "complete kits" ever again is, I strongly suspect, gone for good now. The man is basically a fool to himself. If he would only have modified that blasted Website to show the true picture and behaved honestly, he wouldn't have trashed his own reputation and wouldn't still be doing himself out of such sales of what he can produce that he might otherwise get. Since the Website is clearly now doing him more harm than good, it would surely even make sense for him to simply take it down outright and just rely on the shows and magazine 'small ads'. Some other small traders seem to do that, though I think that's poor business sense on their part in modern times. But then, from long experience of dealing with them professionally in large numbers, sometimes - sad to say - there can be few things as small-minded as a small businessman; and this is a classic case. Edited March 23, 2017 by Willie Whizz 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I agree that he is a fool to himself in that there are people willing to help him and he is not accepting that help. He has a fairly good e-commerce website but clearly does not know how to input the information about stock. He does have a warning - in bold red lettering on the index page - that people should not send money until he has confirmed that the item is available. Have people asked and been misled? If so, that is clearly criminal. Edit: I note also that other parts of the website are not getting updated such as upcoming exhibitions. Edited March 23, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ryde-on-time Posted March 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2017 The website says to order but not pay. That however is not possible. The only way to complete an order is to pay, something that he must be aware of as it has been the same for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted March 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2017 The website says to order but not pay. That however is not possible. The only way to complete an order is to pay, something that he must be aware of as it has been the same for many years. What says everything to me is that every time he gets an order through the website he can't fulfill what does he do ? He doesn't refund or contact the buyer he just ignores them and keeps the cash until challenged, only then does he after a fashion return the money, but it usually takes 2-3 attempts and a long time. My thoughts are that he bargains on the purchaser giving up and it's become a reliable revenue stream for him, if it wasn't he would have been honest and changed his website by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete55 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I wonder what Coopercrafts bank manager(s) thinks about all this? P No idea Porcy, but he must have some funds to keep paying the not inconsiderable exhibition stand rents, otherwise he wouldn't be getting repeat invites to the same shows year in, year out. Cannot see he makes the rent back in sales of stock he doesn't seem to have on display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 if it wasn't he would have been honest and changed his website by now. He shouldn't be able to hide behind the excuse that the website cannot be amended again. The conversation with his web-hosting indicated today that they would be able to make any changes necessary. If there aren't any changes next week I'll follow it up. If anyone has made a payment via the website and not received goods I would suggest it may be effective to complain to the payment gateway where he will undoubtedly be in breach of his merchant's terms and conditions - https://www.worldpay.com/uk/about/contact-us/complaints - if he loses his payment gateway then that starts to make life awkward to continue in the same vein. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted March 23, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2017 His little stand at the Nottingham (East Midlands) Show last weekend had plastic sides for most (at least) of the old Ian Kirk LNER range, and some of the old Slaters MR coaches (I don't know what that comprised so can't comment further). And they all appeared to be in "fresh" packaging (i.e. looking new, uncreased and not at all tatty). What there didn't appear to be available was roofs, underframes, bogies etc. This suggests there may be some truth in the stories about problems with his (now-legendary) "machine" and/or some - but not necessarily all - of the moulds. But if those are indeed "new production" sides, he has to be getting them from somewhere - even if perhaps from a different "machine" or even via a sub-contractor. As I've said elsewhere, the sensible thing would now be to regard these sides as merely a 'scratchbuilding aid' or as something for people who feel they can't work with etched brass sides to use to replace Hornby Gresley sides and create Diagram Numbers that are otherwise unavailable. But the idea of being able to buy "complete kits" ever again is, I strongly suspect, gone for good now. The man is basically a fool to himself. If he would only have modified that blasted Website to show the true picture and behaved honestly, he wouldn't have trashed his own reputation and wouldn't still be doing himself out of such sales of what he can produce that he might otherwise get. Since the Website is clearly now doing him more harm than good, it would surely even make sense for him to simply take it down outright and just rely on the shows and magazine 'small ads'. Some other small traders seem to do that, though I think that's poor business sense on their part in modern times. But then, from long experience of dealing with them professionally in large numbers, sometimes - sad to say - there can be few things as small-minded as a small businessman; and this is a classic case. The little that was on sale looked to me if they were old production which never had bogies, underframe or roofs made for them, just in new packaging. And no where near the range he advertises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 It does sound like this chap needs help, but for some reason thinks he can sort it out. I note someone has mentioned Slaters, and it might actually be worth while contacting them, especially if you know CC are planning to attend any exhibition. The lack of up to date info on the CC website , might be carelessness, but it also makes it more difficult for some to find out where he is going to pop up next. Sadly I am concerned that if it turned nasty, it could result in the whole lot being disposed of where noone could get them. The big problem in the hobby, is that although we have a lot of people who do organise events and exhibitions , and do set up and run companies producing products for us, there are far too many who sit back and expect others to do the work. It is now a lot easier to get together, get projects funded(crowdfunding and cooperatives) ,all it needs is people to get together and get it started. Getting any business started costs money, and many don't appeciate that. It is one reason small local shops like model shops close down, as noone can afford to buy the business. In some areas you can buy a row of houses for the cost of the stock in a decent small model shop. One reason 3D printing is becoming popular, is that it costs a lot less to get started, than injection moulded plastic models. There may be grumbles, but something is always better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) The little that was on sale looked to me if they were old production which never had bogies, underframe or roofs made for them, just in new packaging. And no where near the range he advertises. That might be another explanation of course - though it'd mean there must have been one heck of a mis-match in production quantities at some point in the past, because it's looked like this on his stand for at least three years as I know of! Many - not all - of the different types of Gresley Corridor sides were available (and in reasonable quantities for a Show) it seemed to me; but fewer of the Non-Corridor ones (e.g. no Quad-Arts that I saw). And certainly not the rest of what was on the Website - just a small number of Cooper Craft and Parkside lorry and wagon kits that did look to be in 'old and tatty' packaging; and two grotty unlabelled shoe-boxes of something I couldn't get past a couple of old boys 'Booming for Britain' to examine but didn't look at all 'appetising' - possibly something in flat brass? Edited March 23, 2017 by Willie Whizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 He has to pay the web design folk to alter his site, and possibly a high hosting fee. There are some aspects he can alter, simple enough to change the values to zero for goods he does not have, (he can alter prices, if he wants/can be bothered. I wonder why he hasn't done that???). The web hosting company have some responsibility in hosting a known fraudulent site. fwiw There was mention on here (by Paul Dunn) some time back wrt the 'legal' situation wrt Slaters and the swap over of 4 to 7mm kits. I've no idea if any resolution was reached. I'm undecided what folk really want to happen, within the realm of possibilities, with this situation. It would be relatively easy to stop him from trading, if you got yourself organised. That would prevent further folk being swindled. If you want the ranges to be revitalised, then It is unlikely that there is anything worth having, other than the names of the various brands, and I very much doubt he would be likely to sell any of it, certainly at the lower true value, or that anybody would be foolish enough to pay much for what is left. If folk think that any of what is offered, but not being supplied, is something that would have a market, then design and get it made yourself, or persuade an existing maker to do so. Unless it is a brass etched sheet, afaik there is nothing left/being made new in other materials by Coopercraft. As I said before, etching does not involve much capital expenditure. But, I guess it is easier to wait in hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Hi, May have said this before but Colin Ashby ran off a quantity of each of the long mouldings before handing the moulds over. IIRC I supplied the beige plastic for the sides. I don't know exactly the quantities but it would be hundreds rather than thousands. This was only intended as a bridging stock to cover the time it was expected to take to set up to mould them elsewhere. I am certain that the quantities were not matched up to produce a set number of complete kits and you need a lot more roofs than any one side. The smaller components had at that time been produced on the Coopercraft machines while Tony Brown had the business. I strongly suspect that all of the Kirk kits packaged in Somerset were from the stock of long mouldings supplied at the outset and that little or nothing of them were moulded there. I suspect that any sides still available will indeed be left overs from the initial stock from when the stock of other components ran out. I am grateful for Andy Y for having taken this up with the website people. Something which an electronic illiterate like myself would not know how to do. If the website is changed and/or his ability to take money for things which can not be produced is removed then one problem at least is solved. For me at any rate. The unfulfilled and un refunded order that I placed is cheap insurance. If consulted I can safely tell potential customers the circumstances and advise them not to try to purchase my former kits here. best wishes, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) A similar situation arose on an Audi forum a few years back. An unscrupulous member defrauded several other members over a long period of time. He now walks with a permanent limp And is a proud owner of a criminal record. Edited March 23, 2017 by lofty1966 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stock_2007 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I've just looked at my order page and its been changed to 'pending' 7 weeks ago it was about to be posted! Of course the payment was paid by the bank a day after I first put the order in? Edited March 23, 2017 by stock_2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 What I find bizarre is people are still sending him money. You do all know the definition of insanity !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lee Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 What I find bizarre is people are still sending him money. You do all know the definition of insanity !!! Possibly some people don't know the situation. I am grateful to this and other forums for informing me, otherwise I might be one of the ones to lose money. On the other hand, I live in a non-Anglophone country relatively isolated from other people with model railways and tend to use the Internet a lot more than I did when I lived in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted March 24, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) What I find bizarre is people are still sending him money. You do all know the definition of insanity !!! Not bizarre at all, not every modeller is on forums and aware of the situation. As in other things when problems arise such as non delivery of a product you start to search and only then might you find threads such as this. I'd surmise there are still alot who frequent here and yet have no idea they'd be pouring money into a hole if they ordered. I got caught many years ago in a similar situation. it was pre-internet and you relied on magazines, shows and word of mouth. I purchased a Leather bike jacket from a trader at a show, as he didn't have my size I paid a deposit and awaited delivery. To cut a long story short he was doing much the same as Coopercraft and advertising products he didn't have and taking deposits and payment. When he finally got wound up it turned out that many of the magazines he had been getting orders from had been cutting him slack as "he was a nice guy" and the stand that I brought from wasn't his but another companies that had given him space "to help him out". I paid £20 deposit when my weekly wage was £80 so it was a large amount to me, in conversation with the liquidator he said that just in the previous year the trader had taken £20,000+ in either deposits or full payment and all of it had "disappeared". The stupid thing was if he had run his business properly it was viable. I didn't get any money back but at least the trader spent 18 months in prison. Edited March 24, 2017 by chris p bacon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 I would normally agree with those who are saying it is odd that people are still paying monies. One problem with that argument is if someone has googled and NOT gone straight to the home page where he does have a notice in red. To me it is a shame that he hasn't either bothered or felt comfortable talking to someone about his woes, given that his product is still wanted. It may have helped him....it may not have. I hope Andy Y's idea helps sort issues to a degree. Overall, it is a shame really. Khris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Hi, It is possible to get to the Shop pages on the Coopercraft website without passing the Home page which is the only place that the red warning appears. I found that if I searched for Coopercraft Kirk then I was directed to the pages listing my former range where it was possible to place an order and be charged the payment without ever seeing any notice of non availability. I did this as I had heard from other individuals who had done this then found me. If you search for Ian Kirk you get the website for my existing range of O gauge. The little bit of my business that I kept for my (semi) retirement. Although having no legal responsibility I feel obliged to do what I can to prevent potential customers for my former range being ripped off. best wishes, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingscotsmanfan Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Has anyone managed to buy the sides he has listed on the website online from him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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