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Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative


Edwardian

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If the bailiffs can't get the money there is always a creditor requested winding up and liquidation. That may or may not result in a small percentage payment but it will certainly stop him taking more money.

 

It's not an incorporated business. You can't wind up or liquidate a person. At least not in the terms you are thinking of :)

 

As a sole trader, the business funds are no different to his own personal funds (although it's good business practice to keep them separate) and any action would need to be against him personally.

 

The only way to get a clearer view would be if we had the Scandinavian model of public tax returns.

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That's a quite remarkable nugget of information Bill. Remarkable because it is (allegedly) pure guesswork or you have a closer knowledge of Cooper Craft's trading activity than most of us would have assumed, the reasons for which I am currently pondering.

Without suggesting anyone's name in particular, is it at all possible that there are some lurking about with a vested interest in keeping alive the concept of Coopercraft "goodwill" such that when they buy into or buy out the business at rock-bottom prices, there is no immediate revulsion in the minds of potential customers when they hear the name "Coopercraft"?

Edited by ted675
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Not me

 

Coopercraft was moribund when Paul Dunn bought it and nothing he has done since has changed that.

 

I just wish folk here would let it die in peace.

 

If people got their money back I'm sure they would.

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It's not an incorporated business. You can't wind up or liquidate a person. At least not in the terms you are thinking of :)

 

As a sole trader, the business funds are no different to his own personal funds (although it's good business practice to keep them separate) and any action would need to be against him personally.

 

The only way to get a clearer view would be if we had the Scandinavian model of public tax returns.

Then if that is the case the creditors would have to go against him personally.

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Not me

 

Coopercraft was moribund when Paul Dunn bought it and nothing he has done since has changed that.

 

I just wish folk here would let it die in peace.

 

If he switched off the website it would, nothing to stop him taking what he has to shows to sell, then at least people could walk away with an item if they wanted it.

 

How much is Dunn hoovering up from people who are not on forums and are not being forwarned?

 

 

Isn't it often said that the most vocal form a minority, if that is true then there are likely more out there awaiting a delivery that'll never arrive.

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What exactly is ''retooling'' and how is it done ? What sort of expertise is required ?

It's a very exacting process of milling a 'negative' image of the thing you want to mould into a steel block; not only do you have to be precise with the pattern itself, but you also have to be aware of how the plastic will behave when you inject it into the mould, and how you can release the finished product from the mould. It requires a high degree of skill, along with a deep pocket if you have to pay someone else to do it. I believe a technique called 'spark erosion' may replace milling in some cases.

Moulds deteriorate over time; this becomes evident when you see thin webs of material between the  different components on a sprue, coupled with a lack of definition on detail.

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Coopercraft was moribund when Paul Dunn bought it and nothing he has done since has changed that.

 

I just wish folk here would let it die in peace.

I think most of us gave up on it a long time ago. There were a few things in the range that I still could make use of but I've long since resorted to scouring second hand sales at shows and swapmeets or a well known internet site.

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Not me

 

Coopercraft was moribund when Paul Dunn bought it and nothing he has done since has changed that.

 

I just wish folk here would let it die in peace.

 

 

 

Why do you want it to die?

 

So you can release your own versions?

 

No one is actually stopping you doing that if that is what you want to do. The old "not treading on others toes" idea died years ago.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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Moulds deteriorate over time; this becomes evident when you see thin webs of material between the  different components on a sprue, coupled with a lack of definition on detail.

The last time I saw Coopercraft at a show, two or three years ago, many of the Coopercraft items were like this.  They used to be crisply moulded, the ones I saw had an awful lot of "flash".

 

Do we presume that Dunn has not produced any new injection mouldings of any of the ranges he has purchased, and in every case he is selling old stock?

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Hi,

I don't want to add too much to this thread, I thought it might have run it's course by now. However to clear up a couple of points on the injection moulding of plastic and life of moulds.  Moulds like mine, machined in hard machining brass will indeed wear out which is why some commercial mould use hardened steel. For model railway purposes where we are talking thousands rather than millions the brass mould is perfectly adequate and they are unlikely to wear out. I have now done 47 years involvement with plastic moulding and have never had to re-tool an item simply because the mould had worn out. (they can of course be damaged or re-tooled for change or improvement and of course require a certain amount of maintenance).I am fairly sure that when the moulds from my former range were last used by Colin Ashby and Tony Brown they would still have had more life left in them than any likely prospective demand. I believe that a quantity of mouldings was handed over when Coopercraft was sold to Mr Dunn and I am sure that these were of marketable quality and I suspect (but can not of course claim to know for certain) that the only Kirk coach kits sold from Somerset were packaged from this stock. The last Coopercraft mouldings produced by Tony Brown were not as far as I know flashed. Making, altering or repairing these moulds requires a certain degree of skill. (Ideally a precision Engineer). Now once again I must state that this is pure surmise but from the evidence of flashed moulds and what I have been told about the demise of the (now famous) moulding machine I suspect that the machine was operated without being set up properly. Changing moulds and setting up is not in itself difficult but it has to be right and experience helps.  The Southern Railway Coach range of Kirk 4mm coach kits was recently passed from Colin Ashby to Precision who seem to have had no problem getting them back into production. Precision of course have many years of experience in plastic moulding. If Mr Dunn reads this he might consider approaching them to see if he can sell what is at the moment just so much scrap brass.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

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If people got their money back I'm sure they would.

 

 

Sometimes I think PD has a better grasp on reality than most people posting here.

 

All the signs point to there being no money left in the business. 

 

The only certainty is that when the end does come those who are owed small amounts of unsecured debts will get nothing.

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Sometimes I think PD has a better grasp on reality than most people posting here.

 

All the signs point to there being no money left in the business.

 

The only certainty is that when the end does come those who are owed small amounts of unsecured debts will get nothing.

I don't think it is his grip on reality which is being questioned here, it is his business ethics.

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Sometimes I think PD has a better grasp on reality than most people posting here.

I don't believe you are the person to make that call, I refer you to my previous post. I wasn't sure if you'd cherry pick it or ignore it, you appear to have gone for the latter as it doesn't fit with your views.

 

All the signs point to there being no money left in the business. .

If there is no chance of people being paid back and if there is no money in the business - are you saying you believe he is insolvent? - then he should not be taking new money for goods he has no ability to provide. He should get in touch with Sinclair Knight and have the site taken down. I'm sure there are IT professionals on here that would also do this for him.

 

Again, because I was evidently not clear, as the trader, Paul Dunn is responsible for this mess and is not the victim.

Edited by JCL
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Sometimes I think PD has a better grasp on reality than most people posting here.

 

All the signs point to there being no money left in the business. 

 

The only certainty is that when the end does come those who are owed small amounts of unsecured debts will get nothing.

Bill,

While it may be a drop in the ocean, your attitude to this surprises me, and I can assure very unlikely I would buy a product from you, whether I was desperate for it or not!

PD's only grasp is trying to get the mods to end this thread. I am hoping like hell it is affecting what little business he has!

 

Your second comment I am struggling with.......He has been going to shows and selling, THAT would indicate to me that there is money still left that he can refund to people INSTEAD of living off their monies. If he is that hard up for money he should go get a job or the dole/unemployment benefits!

 

Anyone in business has a responsibility to ensure that their "customers" receive the product/service they pay for. If they cannot do so they also have a responsibility to ensure that they are NOT taking money illegally ie: from a paywall like this and NOT supplying/producing product.

 

Either way I would say his name is mud now, ALL of his own doing!

 

Khris

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Bill,

While it may be a drop in the ocean, your attitude to this surprises me, and I can assure very unlikely I would buy a product from you, whether I was desperate for it or not!

Seconded

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Hi,

I don't want to add too much to this thread, I thought it might have run it's course by now. However to clear up a couple of points on the injection moulding of plastic and life of moulds. Moulds like mine, machined in hard machining brass will indeed wear out which is why some commercial mould use hardened steel. For model railway purposes where we are talking thousands rather than millions the brass mould is perfectly adequate and they are unlikely to wear out. I have now done 47 years involvement with plastic moulding and have never had to re-tool an item simply because the mould had worn out. (they can of course be damaged or re-tooled for change or improvement and of course require a certain amount of maintenance).I am fairly sure that when the moulds from my former range were last used by Colin Ashby and Tony Brown they would still have had more life left in them than any likely prospective demand. I believe that a quantity of mouldings was handed over when Coopercraft was sold to Mr Dunn and I am sure that these were of marketable quality and I suspect (but can not of course claim to know for certain) that the only Kirk coach kits sold from Somerset were packaged from this stock. The last Coopercraft mouldings produced by Tony Brown were not as far as I know flashed. Making, altering or repairing these moulds requires a certain degree of skill. (Ideally a precision Engineer). Now once again I must state that this is pure surmise but from the evidence of flashed moulds and what I have been told about the demise of the (now famous) moulding machine I suspect that the machine was operated without being set up properly. Changing moulds and setting up is not in itself difficult but it has to be right and experience helps. The Southern Railway Coach range of Kirk 4mm coach kits was recently passed from Colin Ashby to Precision who seem to have had no problem getting them back into production. Precision of course have many years of experience in plastic moulding. If Mr Dunn reads this he might consider approaching them to see if he can sell what is at the moment just so much scrap brass.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

The last 16mm kits I bought via his website some years ago were covered in flash and during a phone call to find out why quality had dropped .... he asked my opinion (???) if he should skim moulds to reduce it. I was a little surprised to say the least. Never bought anymore kits after this as I realised the high quality kits of old were thing of the past. Edited by Greenmodelmonkey
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