Photos of AC electrics

[The Pilotman]

On 11/12/2022 at 12:21, dale159 said:

 

Could those be HST Mk3s with Mk2/Mk1s either end acting as barrier vehicles?

 

Dale

If they were “HST Mk3s” they would have been branded “InterCity 125” and it doesn’t look like these are.

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, The Pilotman said:

If they were “HST Mk3s” they would have been branded “InterCity 125” and it doesn’t look like these are.

 

They just looked like Mk3As and quite common to be mixed with Mk1 full brake or kitchen/buffet car and air-conditioned Mk2s

[montyburns56]

81005  Acton Bridge 1985 by Neville Wellings

 

 

[ianmacc]

It’s really interesting to see the mixed marks of coaches in these rakes. I knew mark ones mixed with mark threes in the capacity of full brakes and buffets until the mark three buffets came about (latter before my time) 

 

I didn’t realise mark threes got mixed in with twos etc so readily. False memory assumed they stayed “pure” due to their modernity and other characteristics. 

[ianmacc]

Incidentally I recall having class 85 and mark three IC executive livery haulage on a footex to Wembley in 1989. That was a rare treat then.

 

I pointed out recently that I rode a scrapped locomotive/ train to a demolished stadium to see two defunct teams!!

[GordonC]

14 hours ago, ianmacc said:

It’s really interesting to see the mixed marks of coaches in these rakes. I knew mark ones mixed with mark threes in the capacity of full brakes and buffets until the mark three buffets came about (latter before my time) 

 

I didn’t realise mark threes got mixed in with twos etc so readily. False memory assumed they stayed “pure” due to their modernity and other characteristics. 

 

I think it was only later after coaches were refurbished into Intercity Swallow livery that Mk2s and Mk3s were kept in separate rakes. Prior to that they were certainly much more mixed together. I know West Coast services had a lot of Mk2Fs, but can never remember whether they had many Mk2Ds and Mk2Es too.

[hexagon789]

14 hours ago, ianmacc said:

It’s really interesting to see the mixed marks of coaches in these rakes. I knew mark ones mixed with mark threes in the capacity of full brakes and buffets until the mark three buffets came about (latter before my time) 

 

I didn’t realise mark threes got mixed in with twos etc so readily. False memory assumed they stayed “pure” due to their modernity and other characteristics. 

When first introduced the Mk3s were in dedicated sets, with Mk1 brakes and Mk1 RKBs.

 

From around 1980, sets were more mixed.

 

Excepting Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton, some Manchester sets had Mk2F FOs with Mk3 TSOs. Too many 2F FOs were ordered so the Mk3 order was slightly reduced.

 

It became usual to see Mk2Fs in Glasgow and Liverpool sets as the dining car in an otherwise Mk3 set.

 

It became usual to see sets with a Mk2F TSO at the outer 2nd Class end either replacing a Mk3 or as a strengthener.

 

The other issue in early Mk3 days (1975-76) was the brake settings. When introduced their distributors were set for the HST braking rate of 9%g, this meant that in mixed sets, they would do almost all the higher speed braking, wearing out the pads more quickly and it also caused bunching of the couplers if the brake controller was adjusted too much at low speed.

 

The distributors were reset to a 6% braking rate, this is why in early 1980s Carriage Working Books, the Mk3s are often listed as 100mph.

 

6 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

I think it was only later after coaches were refurbished into Intercity Swallow livery that Mk2s and Mk3s were kept in separate rakes. Prior to that they were certainly much more mixed together. I know West Coast services had a lot of Mk2Fs, but can never remember whether they had many Mk2Ds and Mk2Es too.

110mph was the first real need to marshal dedicated Mk3 sets again.

 

The distributors had to be re-adjusted to the higher braking rate of 9%g again for 110mph running. (HSTs can do 125mph vs 110mph because of the electric brake control, if that failed they too became 110mph.)

 

You are right that the WCML fleet wide dedicated 2F or Mk3 sets was with Swallow livery; it was I believe the May 1989 timetable which saw the sets all made up as Mk3 or 2F with a Mk3 RFM.

 

In May 1989, more 110mph services were introduced, which obviously required more all-Mk3 sets.

 

All the Manchester Pullmans plus the Up only Birmingham Pullman were retimed for 110mph running. Until then only the Glasgow services were 110mph.

[proton]

"The other issue in early Mk3 days (1975-76) was the brake settings. When introduced their distributors were set for the HST braking rate of 9%g, this meant that in mixed sets, they would do almost all the higher speed braking, wearing out the pads more quickly and it also caused bunching of the couplers if the brake controller was adjusted too much at low speed."

 

Can you clarify please?  Does this actually mean that the maximum brake force was actually set to 9% of 1g?  I find braking is not a particularly well-covered aspect of railway operation, for the amateur, and although we see the loco data panels with the brake force stated, is it actually over-stated?

J

[hexagon789]

54 minutes ago, proton said:

"The other issue in early Mk3 days (1975-76) was the brake settings. When introduced their distributors were set for the HST braking rate of 9%g, this meant that in mixed sets, they would do almost all the higher speed braking, wearing out the pads more quickly and it also caused bunching of the couplers if the brake controller was adjusted too much at low speed."

 

Can you clarify please?  Does this actually mean that the maximum brake force was actually set to 9% of 1g?  I find braking is not a particularly well-covered aspect of railway operation, for the amateur, and although we see the loco data panels with the brake force stated, is it actually over-stated?

J

In the UK you have two main braking curves for passenger trains, these are used for calculating braking distances for signalling.

 

The 'W' curve is for up to 100mph, it is based on worst case braking being derived from the braking distance of a Deltic hauling Mk1s with maximum wear blocks, vacuum braked and with one coach (I think it was made up to 16) having the brakes isolated.

 

The other curve is the 'W125' curve, this is based on the 'W' curve but trains with enhanced braking (originally HSTs) are to stop in the 'W' curves 100mph distance from 125mph, this is achieved by using air-braked, disc brakes which provide both more consistent brake performance but more importantly much better performance at high-speeds and finally the HSTs add a further refinement of having an electric brake unit in each power car, the trailing one receives a signal to apply the brakes from the front, thus reducing the brake propagation time by 75% compared to using purely the automatic air brake.

 

Because the brake propagation rate increases (though it is mere seconds) without the electric brake units working, a 110mph limit is imposed if it fails. This is why LHCS Mk3s are normally run at 110mph maximum as they don't have or use the electric brake system. (Mk3 DVTs and the Class 90s were fitted but it was not used in normal service, the 86s and 87s not being equipped.)

 

The calculated distances for the W125 curve also allow for - one trailer having its brakes isolated, and THREE WSP activations.

 

The W Curve assumes an average deceleration rate from brake application to a stand of 6%g (0.6m/s/s), the W125 assumes 9%g (0.9m/s/s).

 

It should be noted most trains brake better than the curve assumes.

 

HSTs actually manage about 9.6%g, 75mph Sprinters with their tread brakes (but with full Electro-Pneumatic control) manage about 7%g.

 

The bit about reducing (and later increasing) the brake rate on LHCS Mk3s I've already mentioned as you've seen.

 

The ScotRail Mk3s had their rates increased for the push-pulls.

 

Locomotives usually have much poorer brakeforce than carriages, such that running light or on short trains they must be speed restricted.

 

Modern disc braked locos such as the 67s, 68s and 88s can run at 100mph (110/125mph on some bits of the ECML for 67s), light engine as they have about 50% more brakeforce themselves than older tread braked locos such as 37s or 47s.

Edited December 14, 2022 by hexagon789

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

When first introduced the Mk3s were in dedicated sets, with Mk1 brakes and Mk1 RKBs.

 

From around 1980, sets were more mixed.

 

 

My period of spotting ended around 1980, that would explain my view of the Mk3s being dedicated sets apart from catering and the BG and others saying they remembered much more mixed sets.

[proton]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

In the UK you have two main braking curves for passenger trains, these are used for calculating braking distances for signalling.

 

The 'W' curve is for up to 100mph, it is based on worst case braking being derived from the braking distance of a Deltic hauling Mk1s with maximum wear blocks, vacuum braked and with one coach (I think it was made up to 16) having the brakes isolated.

 

The other curve is the 'W125' curve, this is based on the 'W' curve but trains with enhanced braking (originally HSTs) are to stop in the 'W' curves 100mph distance from 125mph, this is achieved by using air-braked, disc brakes which provide both more consistent brake performance but more importantly much better performance at high-speeds and finally the HSTs add a further refinement of having an electric brake unit in each power car, the trailing one receives a signal to apply the brakes from the front, thus reducing the brake propagation time by 75% compared to using purely the automatic air brake.

 

Because the brake propagation rate increases (though it is mere seconds) without the electric brake units working, a 110mph limit is imposed if it fails. This is why LHCS Mk3s are normally run at 110mph maximum as they don't have or use the electric brake system. (Mk3 DVTs and the Class 90s were fitted but it was not used in normal service, the 86s and 87s not being equipped.)

 

The calculated distances for the W125 curve also allow for - one trailer having its brakes isolated, and THREE WSP activations.

 

The W Curve assumes an average deceleration rate from brake application to a stand of 6%g (0.6m/s/s), the W125 assumes 9%g (0.9m/s/s).

 

It should be noted most trains brake better than the curve assumes.

 

HSTs actually manage about 9.6%g, 75mph Sprinters with their tread brakes (but with full Electro-Pneumatic control) manage about 7%g.

 

The bit about reducing (and later increasing) the brake rate on LHCS Mk3s I've already mentioned as you've seen.

 

The ScotRail Mk3s had their rates increased for the push-pulls.

 

Locomotives usually have much poorer brakeforce than carriages, such that running light or on short trains they must be speed restricted.

 

Modern disc braked locos such as the 67s, 68s and 88s can run at 100mph (110/125mph on some bits of the ECML for 67s), light engine as they have about 50% more brakeforce themselves than older tread braked locos such as 37s or 47s.

That's very informative, thank you so much!

John

[montyburns56]

It's funny that the first class passengers ended up in the older coaches. It's like with the last trains with MK1 pullmans where the 2nd class passengers got the newer MK2 air con coaches and the first class passengers got the old MK1s.

[montyburns56]

E3006 Manchester Piccadilly by Milke Hemming

 

 

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, montyburns56 said:

It's funny that the first class passengers ended up in the older coaches. It's like with the last trains with MK1 pullmans where the 2nd class passengers got the newer MK2 air con coaches and the first class passengers got the old MK1s.

I was informed that many LMR staff regarded the 2F Firsts as superior to the Mk3As and only felt they were surpassed when the 3Bs were introduced.

 

 

[montyburns56]

86235 Northampton 1977 by David Ford.

 

 

[ianmacc]

11 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

86235 Northampton 1977 by David Ford.

 

 

Domino headcodes on an 86. Probably commonplace but just looks odd…

[D7063]

6 minutes ago, ianmacc said:

Domino headcodes on an 86. Probably commonplace but just looks odd…

I was just about to say the same, is is the spacing of the dots that makes the 86 look 'goofy'?

[wombatofludham]

16 minutes ago, ianmacc said:

Domino headcodes on an 86. Probably commonplace but just looks odd…

Actually not that common, I think only two got "dominoed" and the rest went straight to plated headcode boxes.
 

Similarly Class 85 photos with dominoes are rare and many went straight from "0000" to plated headcodes.  However, there are lots of images of domino headcodes on 81s.

I agree though the 86 with domino headcodes looks like it should be sat on a verandah plucking at a banjo.

[cctransuk]

29 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Actually not that common, I think only two got "dominoed" and the rest went straight to plated headcode boxes.
 

Similarly Class 85 photos with dominoes are rare and many went straight from "0000" to plated headcodes.  However, there are lots of images of domino headcodes on 81s.

I agree though the 86 with domino headcodes looks like it should be sat on a verandah plucking at a banjo.

 

Watch it !!!!

 

You'll have a certain flamboyant 'lady of colour' after you !!!!

 

CJI.

[ianmacc]

2 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

86235 Northampton 1977 by David Ford.

 

 

Also is that second Siphon(?) still in brown livery?

[Davexoc]

3 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Actually not that common, I think only two got "dominoed" and the rest went straight to plated headcode boxes.
 

Similarly Class 85 photos with dominoes are rare and many went straight from "0000" to plated headcodes.  However, there are lots of images of domino headcodes on 81s.

I agree though the 86 with domino headcodes looks like it should be sat on a verandah plucking at a banjo.

 

So you could say it was something of a 'Novelty'. Hat, coat and all that.....

 

1 hour ago, ianmacc said:

Also is that second Siphon(?) still in brown livery?

 

Standard NPCCS rail grime and brake dust brown I think....

[proton]

13 hours ago, ianmacc said:

Also is that second Siphon(?) still in brown livery?

When enlarged it certainly looks like it, brown is uniform and over the ends, with no blue in sight.

[cctransuk]

23 hours ago, ianmacc said:

Also is that second Siphon(?) still in brown livery?

 

Brown livery? What brown livery? BR never used a brown livery on Siphons - or anything else for that matter.

 

Surely you weren't suggesting GWR brown livery?

 

CJI.

[Darius43]

On 15/12/2022 at 18:53, montyburns56 said:

86235 Northampton 1977 by David Ford.

 

 

Notwithstanding the brown(ish) Syphon, what are the 3rd and 4th coaches?

 

The 3rd could be a Mk1 BG but it looks to have more windows than a BG.  The 4th has a higher window sill height than the Mk 1 behind it.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[hexagon789]

28 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

Notwithstanding the brown(ish) Syphon, what are the 3rd and 4th coaches?

 

The 3rd could be a Mk1 BG but it looks to have more windows than a BG.  The 4th has a higher window sill height than the Mk 1 behind it.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

The 3rd vehicle is a Mk1 BG Full Brake, the 4th looks like a Mk1 SLSTP - SLeeper Second Twin with Pantry.

Edited December 18, 2022 by hexagon789