Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !

[Crewlisle]

Perhaps Hornby should have taken a little longer to update the Class 87 & designed an all metal-close-to-scale pantograph or commissioned Sommerfeldt to design & supply a BW pantograph.  With their experience I think Sommerfeld would have succeded to please all of us - those who want to run 'live' OLE or like me just cosmetic OLE.

 

Let's hope Sommerfeldt can modify one of their continental pantographs for those of us who like to see the pantograph move when in contact with the OLE.

 

Peter 

[MGR Hooper!]

Perhaps Hornby should have taken a little longer to update the Class 87 & designed an all metal-close-to-scale pantograph or commissioned Sommerfeldt to design & supply a BW pantograph. With their experience I think Sommerfeld would have succeded to please all of us - those who want to run 'live' OLE or like me just cosmetic OLE.

 

Let's hope Sommerfeldt can modify one of their continental pantographs for those of us who like to see the pantograph move when in contact with the OLE.

 

Peter

 

Why don't you ask Sommerfeldt?

 

And why do you want them to "MODIFY" an HO scale pantograph based in a design from the continent? Sounds absurd. After all the noise you make about this pantograph why not just have Sommerfeldt make it from scratch? Because if they have to modify any of their HO scale continental single arm pantographs, you'll have an underscale BW panto with two lower arms (which is no where near prototypical)

Edited October 27, 2017 by MGR Hooper!

[ThaneofFife]

I see Pangate is rumbling on.

 

When Hornby announced this model last year I assume the loco had been in development for a while which means the decision to commit funding to it would have been taken some while back.  At that point we'd only got the no longer in production Heljan 86, Bachmann's 85 and an announcement of a Class 90, and Hornby's old models.  Popular received wisdom amongst modellers, including some "names" was that electrics don't sell, with some pointing to deep discounting on the 85 as proof (although I haven't seen the same names pointing to the fact you can currently buy J15, Claud Hamiltons and NER Q6s at near on half price at some box shifters as reasoning that kettles don't sell...) and the inference was the market couldn't support another high fidelity AC electric model.  At the time Hornby was experiencing what some would call "financial headwinds" and was experiencing boardroom unrest as well, so Hornby would have been more than justified in spending any investment money on yet another pretty kettle, safe in the knowledge that the grey pounds would flood to it and they'd get a decent return, which according to the pundits, isn't guaranteed with an AC electric.

 

​Yet, despite all that, they committed to doing the model.

 

Now, I don't subscribe to the "oh we should be grateful for anything" school of thought but I do recognise this decision was bordering on the brave given the circumstances and therefore am willing to be more pragmatic about the model spec.  For me the priorities were:

 

1) It should look like an 87 at normal viewing distances.

2) The bogies should be the correct length.

3) It should have good running capabilities, be DCC compatible with easy sound installation.

4) it should reflect the detail alterations made to the real locos throughout their life, not a one size fits all moulding.

5) The pantographs should look accurate, i.e. not a parts bin Italian job or National Grid surplus Pylon model

 

For me, I don't actually need or want a pantograph that can bounce up and down like Tigger on cocaine, as my OHLE will be cosmetic, only on the scenic parts of the layout, and of a location where the contact wire would be a uniform height (no overbridges or level crossings), so a pan that can perform a Jive to satisfy Craig Revell-Horwood would be quite damaging when transiting from an unwired fiddle yard to a wired scenic front of house.  So Hornby's solutions are fine for me.  However, whilst I wouldn't be arrogant enough to suggest - as some seem to be - that my needs are the mainstream and Hornby therefore should be tailoring their spec to my needs, I also feel that the suggestion that some won't be buying the loco because of Pangate is bordering on absurdity.  The rest of the loco looks to be bob on, especially compared to the alternative (which was new before I took my O levels and I'm coming up to 55) or for that matter the Heljan 86, and we can hope based on recent models that it will run well and be simple to make noisy.  Those are things that are far more difficult to put right if they are wrong, compared to a non bouncing pantograph.  Not buying the model because of the pantograph is cutting off your nose to spite your face and, it has to be said, possibly counter productive as I can't help thinking that an 86 would be next given Hornby have form for re-issuing modern versions of their older classics, and the old Hornby 86 isn't that much younger than the old 87.

 

​For me this was the model announcement that restored the faith in Hornby to cater for anyone under 75 who have an interest in anything that doesn't boil water, after the slapdash Mk2e and other recent own goals.  I fully intend to raid my piggy bank to buy six initially, three of each, and hope that Executive liveried version follow on although preferably after a few month's have elapsed to fill up the piggy.  I'm a realist, I'm sure I could pick faults with the model but given the fact it appears to tick so many boxes on my decision list, and it looks to be streets ahead of the alternatives, so long as the pantograph LOOKS the right shape and size, that's close enough for me.

 

Great post.  As the model stands it gives them that want more to support the aftermarket businesses too plus a bit of modelling on top............working (picking up) pans does sound like it goes hand in hand with uh hum...."modelling" so theres even less to complain about really.

[adb968008]

One thing no one has mentioned yet..,

 

There is nothing stopping Hornby making a working pan in 2018...

Never say never.

 

If the plastic pan causes the model to fail to sell, then they know the solution.

 

Thing is..l I bet it will sell so they won’t have to, and can kick that can down the road for another day.

 

Design clever may have a future, in times of crisis, make something you can sell, at a cost that works at a price the market can afford, you can always upgrade in the future.

 

Who knows one day 71000 may have fully working valve gear, and the thousands they sold before will end up binned..Hornby gets two bites at the cherry.

This could be partially why some many times “release 2”..of a model fails to sell... there is no upgrade so everyone keeps version 1.

 

If it’s perfect first time, you don’t get a second time... business is business, the hobby is their business, but we forget as their business is a hobby to us.

Edited October 27, 2017 by adb968008

[Dagworth]

One thing no one has mentioned yet..,

 

There is nothing stopping Hornby making a working pan in 2018...

Never say never.

I did make that kind of comment in my reply here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117244-Hornby-class-87-confirmed-newly-tooled-version-for-2017/page-30&do=findComment&comment=2901191

 

Andi

[MGR Hooper!]

Now that the 87 is almost upon us, can someone create a wish list poll for the next AC electric from Hornby/Bachmann?  My personal fav for an engine would be an AL3, and for an EMU an AM 10.

Since the silhouette of the Class 86 and Class 87 are so similar i.e. they are basically the same body with a few differences, I'd urge Hornby to have a go at the Class 86 next.

[ThaneofFife]

Since the silhouette of the Class 86 and Class 87 are so similar i.e. they are basically the same body with a few differences, I'd urge Hornby to have a go at the Class 86 next.

 

Maybe Hornby have already done the work with the tooling to allow them to bring in a new 86.  Anyway, lets get the 87 out first eh............

[Mike at C&M]

The 87 is not nearly upon us, we have to wait until February 2018, according to the Hornby website.

 

By the time it arrives, we will already know what Hornby and Bachmann have planned in their 2018 catalogues, and remember that a Class 90 is already listed by Bachmann.

[jjb1970]

February is only four months away, not very long. Given the intervals between announcement and product delivery that are common in the world of model railways, Hornby will deliver these within a commendably short interval from announcement if they appear in February.

[No Decorum]

Since the silhouette of the Class 86 and Class 87 are so similar i.e. they are basically the same body with a few differences, I'd urge Hornby to have a go at the Class 86 next.

I hope I’m wrong because I’d welcome an 86 but if I were Hornby, I wouldn’t risk it. Heljan’s 86 is too recent whatever its faults, even if Hornby could generate extra sales by making the early versions as well. Any of the AC electrics 80 to 84 would be welcome but probably would not generate the same sales as 85s, 87s or 90s. I have a hankering for an 80 in both its AC and gas turbine form. For that, at best, I anticipate a few disappointing years ahead.

[No Decorum]

The 87 is not nearly upon us, we have to wait until February 2018, according to the Hornby website.

How nice to have a retailer say that! Some, as soon as something is announced, stick it on their websites and label it “coming soon”. I am not familiar with that particular shade of meaning of the word “soon”.

[hellotojasonisaacs]

Now that the 87 is almost upon us, can someone create a wish list poll for the next AC electric from Hornby/Bachmann?  My personal fav for an engine would be an AL3, and for an EMU an AM 10.

Reading an article in the modelling press soon after they announced the 87, that it was between that and the 91, maybe the time has finally come for the other locomotive?

 

Or, for a challenge, an 89....

Now that the 87 is almost upon us, can someone create a wish list poll for the next AC electric from Hornby/Bachmann?  My personal fav for an engine would be an AL3, and for an EMU an AM 10.

Reading an article in the modelling press soon after they announced the 87, that it was between that and the 91, maybe the time has finally come for the other locomotive?

 

Or, for a challenge, an 89....

[No Decorum]

Reading an article in the modelling press soon after they announced the 87, that it was between that and the 91, maybe the time has finally come for the other locomotive?

 

Or, for a challenge, an 89....

 

Reading an article in the modelling press soon after they announced the 87, that it was between that and the 91, maybe the time has finally come for the other locomotive?

 

Or, for a challenge, an 89....

You can say that again!

[hellotojasonisaacs]

So clearly, the website chose to post my post twice. Oh well!

[55020]

So clearly, the website chose to post my post twice. Oh well!

 

I think we should ban websites that "chose" to work against our will.  Asimov's robot laws should be amended to protect us 

[Dagworth]

Now that the 87 is almost upon us, can someone create a wish list poll for the next AC electric from Hornby/Bachmann?  My personal fav for an engine would be an AL3, and for an EMU an AM 10.

The logical choice would be an 81, long lived... 82,83 and 84 all have very short lives in front line service.

 

As for EMUs either a 304, 309 or 310. Any would make me happy but the 304 or 310 would fit in with current gaps in my stable, I've already built a pair of 309s

 

Andi

[wombatofludham]

I hope I’m wrong because I’d welcome an 86 but if I were Hornby, I wouldn’t risk it. Heljan’s 86 is too recent whatever its faults, even if Hornby could generate extra sales by making the early versions as well. Any of the AC electrics 80 to 84 would be welcome but probably would not generate the same sales as 85s, 87s or 90s. I have a hankering for an 80 in both its AC and gas turbine form. For that, at best, I anticipate a few disappointing years ahead.

 

Except the Heljan 86 is no longer in production, was made in a condition representing the class only from about 1987 onwards, no good for anyone wanting a banger blue version for example unless you are very adept with a scalpel, and fetches stupendously daft money on eBay unless you want an Anglia one which it seems no one does.

 

​In other words, the single largest class of AC electrics, with the longest life span, doesn't have a readily available model to contemporary standards.  When Hornby announce a new 86, as they surely will to replace their current model, it won't be competing with the Heljan offer which no longer exists, it'll probably come in more variations than the proverbial Heinz range, based on their tooling for the 87, which will be enough to keep us AC junkies in penury and Hornby in good humour when we keep buying them, and be a banker compared to some of the other AC electric locos, although at some point an 81 would be nice.  

 

​The 86 is the Class 47 of the sparkies.  Hornby could keep churning out different versions in myriad liveries for many years to come - AL6-86/0, four different variants of rail blue, 86/3 or /4, 5-6 mainstream liveries, 86/2, at least 5 liveries, 86/5, three liveries.  That's a lot of mileage out of a tooling if it can be designed to replicate all the detail differences.  It's almost a no brainer now we are well past the "electrics don't sell" hoary old chestnut.  Also given that Hornby followed the 2-BIL with a 2-HAL in pretty rapid succession, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar fast follow up with an 86 following on from the 87 if only as a marker in the sand to pre-empt Barwell.

[wombatofludham]

The logical choice would be an 81, long lived... 82,83 and 84 all have very short lives in front line service.

 

As for EMUs either a 304, 309 or 310. Any would make me happy but the 304 or 310 would fit in with current gaps in my stable, I've already built a pair of 309s

 

Andi

 

A 310 would suit me, and again carried a lot of liveries over the years.  I also had a number of hooky cab rides in the class so I've got a bit of a soft spot for the class, especially as I hated the 304s when a regular commuter between Walsall and Perry Barr in the 80s which rode like a bucking bronco over the ploughed field track between Bescot and Hamstead.

 

​On the "lesser Roarers" the 83 might be a contender given the use of one in Exec livery as a carriage pilot and the lovely restoration of the preserved example.

[newbryford]

Since the silhouette of the Class 86 and Class 87 are so similar i.e. they are basically the same body with a few differences, I'd urge Hornby to have a go at the Class 86 next.

 

Also bearing in mind that DJM dropped their proposed 86/87 project as a.n.other (or two) manufacturers already had made significant progress in the development of the 86 and 87...........

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited October 30, 2017 by newbryford

[Legend]

I would have thought they will wait to see how well the 87 is received. That said, they may already have a good idea looking at the level of retailers orders. The 86 is an obvious one to go for and I think would achieve more sales than an 81 simply because of the plethora of liveries the 86 has carried over the years. So I’d say it’s likely . I did think Oxford would have announced one by now to go with their Mk3s, but there is no sign of that and it could be the first conflict of interest with the new CEO .

 

A reasonable bet for 2019 I think.

 

Ps when it comes to units , don’t forget a 303 , and it comes in Caley Blue too. I always thought a 313,314,315,507,508 was a good candidate too , but here we are now with these units approaching end of life and still no model. Perhaps a lost generation of mu models!

Edited October 30, 2017 by Legend

[No Decorum]

Except the Heljan 86 is no longer in production, was made in a condition representing the class only from about 1987 onwards, no good for anyone wanting a banger blue version for example unless you are very adept with a scalpel, and fetches stupendously daft money on eBay unless you want an Anglia one which it seems no one does.

 

​In other words, the single largest class of AC electrics, with the longest life span, doesn't have a readily available model to contemporary standards.  When Hornby announce a new 86, as they surely will to replace their current model, it won't be competing with the Heljan offer which no longer exists, it'll probably come in more variations than the proverbial Heinz range, based on their tooling for the 87, which will be enough to keep us AC junkies in penury and Hornby in good humour when we keep buying them, and be a banker compared to some of the other AC electric locos, although at some point an 81 would be nice.  

 

​The 86 is the Class 47 of the sparkies.  Hornby could keep churning out different versions in myriad liveries for many years to come - AL6-86/0, four different variants of rail blue, 86/3 or /4, 5-6 mainstream liveries, 86/2, at least 5 liveries, 86/5, three liveries.  That's a lot of mileage out of a tooling if it can be designed to replicate all the detail differences.  It's almost a no brainer now we are well past the "electrics don't sell" hoary old chestnut.  Also given that Hornby followed the 2-BIL with a 2-HAL in pretty rapid succession, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar fast follow up with an 86 following on from the 87 if only as a marker in the sand to pre-empt Barwell.

Good on yer. Please PM that to Mr. Isles.

[James90012]

I have 5 HJ 86s which I'm happy enough with, if another came out then I would have to just take it as it comes and make a decision if it is worth replacing them!

 

Does anyone know how long the last 87 lasted in IC Swallow livery? From memory the 87s were all done pretty sharpish after Virgin took over. 

[BR Blue]

No doubt if someone does another 86 Heljan will do another run of their one before the new one gets released. It is a poor model by modern standards but it would dent sales of a new model if released just before a new model. If a manufacturer was doing an 86 they might keep it quiet until it almost ready for release?

[Legend]

I think if people knew there was a new Hornby 86 coming they wouldn’t bother with the Heljan one . It’s relatively expensive and contains known flaws. I think possibly more of an issue is the number of older Hornby 86s in the market on eBay etc. But that said , I still think it’s a 2019 announcement, if nothing from Oxford

[GordonC]

I hope I’m wrong because I’d welcome an 86 but if I were Hornby, I wouldn’t risk it. Heljan’s 86 is too recent whatever its faults, even if Hornby could generate extra sales by making the early versions as well. Any of the AC electrics 80 to 84 would be welcome but probably would not generate the same sales as 85s, 87s or 90s. I have a hankering for an 80 in both its AC and gas turbine form. For that, at best, I anticipate a few disappointing years ahead.

 

There's an awful lot of 86s that could be produced in a variety of liveries, if they produce a definitive model then it could keep them going in sales for years. Heljans reluctance to build on their good chassis is surprising