Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[tomparryharry]

Wonderful photos of a wonderful model. I'm slightly amused by the prospect of seeing a Triang Princess Elizabeth, in back to back pictures with todays 'must have'. I'm not looking to pick holes, but to possibly reflect upon how far the hobby (and Triang) have moved through the years.

 

Ian.

[tractionman]

Were the LMS crimson lake locomotives the same colour as the British Railways maroon locomotives?

 

Worth reading Jenkinson and Essery's (1967) Locomotive Liveries of the LMS on this, eg on page 59 they state:

 

"One of the paint shop staff at Derby states that, as far as he is aware, BR maroon is, in spite of its name, intended to be a match to the old MR/LMS shade."

 

This is followed by the observation 

 

"The author has vivid recollection of seeing No. 1000 together with 46256 'Sir William Stanier F.R.S.' outside Derby works a few years ago on a bright sunny day. [...] both seemed identical in colour..."

 

Having said that, the concluding point made is:

 

"No specification has survived of 1946 maroon shade but most observers seem to agree it was a little darker and somewhat more purple than the pre-war crimson colour" (my italics).

 

Make of that what you will!

 

I've Atholl on order, and it looks a stunning model to me.

 

cheers,

 

Keith

[Robin Brasher]

Wonderful photos of a wonderful model. I'm slightly amused by the prospect of seeing a Triang Princess Elizabeth, in back to back pictures with todays 'must have'. I'm not looking to pick holes, but to possibly reflect upon how far the hobby (and Triang) have moved through the years.

 

Ian.

If you compare the Hornby-Dublo  Duchess of Atholl with the Hornby model I am not sure whether the hobby has moved entirely in the right direction over the last 70 years. The Hornby-Dublo model was cheaper in real terms, more robust and could probably pull more coaches. If it went wrong it could easily be repaired. The Hornby model is likely to be more accurate but I wonder how many will be around in 70 years time.

[coachmann]

The Midland/LMS crimson lake was a rich colour that depended to a great extent for its depth on the undercoat. When the Second World War ended, certain colours were unobtainable including the pre-war crimson lake and so the LMS adopted a darker shade that was indeed maroon and this was applied to new and repainted coaching stock. Locomotive livery was of course black after the war. David Jenkinson was a good friend on mine and he told me this fact was a later discovery and would be included in later volumes of his and Bob Essery's LMS livery books. 

 

I clambered all over Compound No.1000 and Duchess  'Sir William Stanier' when the latter had just received its last repaint in 1962 while on display behind Manchester Central. The Compound 1000 always looked to me somewhat lighter in shade than other locomotives carrying crimson lake, but there is a possible explanation for this which I will go into in the next paragraph.

 

When David J. had a trio of LMS Royal Scot locos built in 0 gauge, Geoff Holt brought them round to me for the usual treatment. Although all the locos were sprayed in the same crimson lake cellulose, I had finished one Scot in post 1937 livery with chrome yellow lining and yellow/red insignia and it looked darker than the one in pre 1937 livery with cream lining and gold/black insignia. The three of us were sat in my room looking at the locos when David suddenly exclaimed that this was possibly the reason why there existed the opinion that crimson lake got darker in the later 1930's. It was an illusion  created by a change in lining and insignia colour.

Edited October 21, 2017 by coachmann

[tomparryharry]

If you compare the Hornby-Dublo  Duchess of Atholl with the Hornby model I am not sure whether the hobby has moved entirely in the right direction over the last 70 years. The Hornby-Dublo model was cheaper in real terms, more robust and could probably pull more coaches. If it went wrong it could easily be repaired. The Hornby model is likely to be more accurate but I wonder how many will be around in 70 years time.

 

Hi Robin,

 

My observation is around a Triang Princess Elizabeth. Sorry for any confusion with an Hornby-Dublo model. Hornby have indeed changed the name over the years.

 

Ian.

[Chamby]

If you compare the Hornby-Dublo  Duchess of Atholl with the Hornby model I am not sure whether the hobby has moved entirely in the right direction over the last 70 years. The Hornby-Dublo model was cheaper in real terms, more robust and could probably pull more coaches. If it went wrong it could easily be repaired. The Hornby model is likely to be more accurate but I wonder how many will be around in 70 years time.

I note that the modelling press have assessed the performance of this new locomotive as “pulling 8 coaches with ease...we loaded both samples to 12 coaches without any signs of slipping...” (Hornby mag 125).

 

Last year at St Austell MRC we decided to see which of our locomotives could haul the most coaches before slipping, expecting a 9F to win. In fact the winner was Hornby R398 “Flying Scotsman” with its ringfield motor tender drive... it happily pulled over 50 coaches on our club layout from a standing start, and would have undoubtedly pulled even more but our club track wasn’t long enough and it was literally chasing its own tail! Remarkably this locomotive was unmodified and has had no remedial work needed in well over 20 years, in essence it is a six wheeled tender pulling all those coaches AND pushing the unpowered locomotive. There’s a video of it on the clubs Facebook page for those interested.

 

Arrr they don’t make ‘em like they used to...

[coachmann]

Tender drives with rubber tyres and Magnadhesion were things the old Hornby Dublo never had to consider due to their diecast metal bodies. And boy weren't they heavy!  Funnily enough, manufacturers are going back to metal to increase the weight factor in smaller locos.

Edited October 21, 2017 by coachmann

[Guest Midland Mole]

But realistically when would anyone need their loco to pull more than 12 coaches? I would much rather have super detailed models that pull less, than a metal brick with barely any detail on it that can pull more. But that is just me.

Alex

[coachmann]

I have never tried to add weight to a RTR loco but it must be possible in some of the larger locos. Scratchbuilders use lead shot suspended in some sort of hard setting gum. Mind you, it can be overdone to the extent that they are almost a missile and damage themselves in derailments.

[JSpencer]

I have never tried to add weight to a RTR loco but it must be possible in some of the larger locos. Scratchbuilders use lead shot suspended in some sort of hard setting gum. Mind you, it can be overdone to the extent that they are almost a missile and damage themselves in derailments.

Hornby's fairly recent pacific releases such as the rebuilt Bullied light pacifics, Clan and Britannia are much heavier and more detailed than any RTR pacific before them (I believe surpassing even Wrenn). One of mine light rebuilt Bullieds derailed and wrote off the finely detailed buffer beam! Fortunately I could easily repair it.

[andyman7]

I wonder how many will be around in 70 years time.

Well barring a miracle, I certainly won't be...

 

Seriously, I can foresee an era where a small band of enthusiasts yet to be born or now just babies keep a small number of our Post-2000 superdetail models running using aftermarket and remade cottage industry spares - a bit like running 1920s Bing/Marklin/Hornby.....

[Lambton58]

Just caught up with Andy's photos and wow, they are stunning!  

Shame they didn't make it to the North Eastern Region.

 

 

Ralph

 

Lambton 58

Edited October 21, 2017 by Lambton58

[leavesontheline]

Saw Andy Y's excellent photos of R3555 plus the review in Hornby Mag and thought hmmm, wonder how much they will be going for out on the streets, anyway it seems that most places have already sold out their pre-order allocation, including Hornby! I guess there must still be many that will be on their way to smaller retailers that I haven't found via a quick Web search but it must say something of the popularity of Hornby's new releases (or the quantity of their initial production runs?). It's like the Pecketts all over again!

[Chamby]

Just caught up with Andy's photos and wow, they are stunning!

Shame they didn't make it to the North Eastern Region.

 

 

Ralph

 

Lambton 58

Fear not, you may have an excuse... with a bit of modellers license I guess. City of Bradford ran between Kings Cross and Leeds in the 1948 locomotive exchange trials. Would have been in lined black livery. RCTS railtours are another possible excuse, City of Nottingham visited its home city’s Victoria station in the sixties, albeit an ex- Eastern Region station by this time. That would have been lined Maroon livery. There may have been others that travelled farther North?

 

Phil

Edited October 21, 2017 by Chamby

[MikeParkin65]

Fear not, you may have an excuse... with a bit of modellers license I guess. City of Bradford ran between Kings Cross and Leeds in the 1948 locomotive exchange trials. Would have been in lined black livery. RCTS railtours are another possible excuse, City of Nottingham visited its home city’s Victoria station in the sixties, albeit an ex- Eastern Region station by this time. That would have been lined Maroon livery. There may have been others that travelled farther North?

 

Phil

46245 was due to run a special to York in 1964  but this was scuppered by the the early wholesale withdrawal of the class. The train ran but with Britannia 'Mercury' in charge. 46245 did run an earlier special to Doncaster though. 

[Colin_McLeod]

Does it matter? If you like the locomotive then why not get one and run it on your layout instead of being a slave to history.

 

Remember rule 1a; "History is flexible"

[Steamport Southport]

But realistically when would anyone need their loco to pull more than 12 coaches? I would much rather have super detailed models that pull less, than a metal brick with barely any detail on it that can pull more. But that is just me.

Alex

 

It all depends on if you have a layout big enough. Some of us have (or will have when the current loft layout goes to the scrapheap). That was built in the 1980s when I was a teenager and is now showing it's age.

 

Even so mine will need to be able to pull kit built coaches which are often heavier than RTR ones. So yes, pulling power is important to some of us. But I think we've moved on quite a bit from Hornby Dublo, something which was obsolete before I was even born and I'm now middle aged.   

 

 

 

Jason

[Pete the Elaner]

But realistically when would anyone need their loco to pull more than 12 coaches? I would much rather have super detailed models that pull less, than a metal brick with barely any detail on it that can pull more. But that is just me.

Alex

I agree that 12 sounds a lot but tight curves & steep gradients significantly reduce what a loco can pull.

[Robin Brasher]

Hornby Engine Shed showed 'Sir William Stanier' easily hauling a rake of eight Mk1 maroon coaches whish is adequate for most layouts.

 

Hattons said 'Sir William Stanier' and 'Duchess of Atholl' both due in November although 'Sir William Stanier' has sold out on pre-order.

 

Not sure why 'Sir William Stanier' is more popular. Whether more people are modelling the BR late crest period, they prefer duchesses with smoke deflectors or because no-one has modelled the Ivatt version before.

[Paul_sterling]

 

Not sure why 'Sir William Stanier' is more popular. Whether more people are modelling the BR late crest period, they prefer duchesses with smoke deflectors or because no-one has modelled the Ivatt version before.

 

Likely that as its never been modelled before, and also the original was revered, and often considered a tragedy that it was not preserved, such was its popularity in the final days of the Class. 

 

Paul. 

[Steamysandy]

Sir William Stammer was retained for a fortnight after the rest of the class were withdrawn to work the Scottish BORDERER Railtour between Crewe and Carlisle.It was polished up to the dead nines and looked absolutely magnificent - like a brand new model.

On return to Crewe it was promptly withdrawn and send for scrapping which was carried out almost immediately.Ive a couple of dvds of the Waverley route where the train is seen arriving at Carlisle and the TVP programme " Britain's lost mainline" shows it in all its glory that day.

A real tragedy

[Steamysandy]

It's me again!

At the end of October 1954,a storm blew in which flooded Carlisle.It was a Saturday and my mother was visiting my Grandad but decided to come into Longniddry to pay our newspaper bill before getting the bus onwards.While we were waiting for the bus a southbound express came through rolling very slowly under caution signals.The locomotive was an unidentified Duchess!.

Many years later I got hold of Trains Illustrated for December 1954.In it was a photograph of 46221 at Polmont on the diverted up Royal Scot taken by WJV Anderson.Ive never seen that photograph again but he photographed the up Queen of Scots there that same day.All Carlisle traffic was sent south to Newcastle behind Duchesses and a Royal Scot so you can have a Duchess alongside a Queen of Scots!

[Ian Hargrave]

I agree that 12 sounds a lot but tight curves & steep gradients significantly reduce what a loco can pull.

 This is an interesting question and there's no easy prescription,if that's the right word. Foremost is the design and condition of your individual track which includes current supply rail joins,pointwork,cleanliness and last but by no means least,baseboard joins.Then there's the matter of which stock. If for example we consider the new Hornby 46256 then maroon MK 1's are a good choice. I have a large collection of the Bachmann variety and the free running and drag properties of these does present problems .Some of the wheelsets need constant attention. They are also heavy in comparison with their latest Hornby equivalent and this combined with as Pete says the curve and gradient factor makes some motive power struggle.Lastly loco wheel cleaning helps..

   

    Then there's a matter of design,weight and balance of the individual model loco.....a good example of how this affects traction is the springing in the rear pony tuck of Bachmann's A!. However,as far as Hornby design is concerned,things are vastly improved as witness the new airsmoothed MN,the haulage capacities of which will equal kit built designs.Thus I for one am not unduly concerned by what will happen with the new Duchess...my temperamental Bachmann MK 1's notwithstanding. How many ? That depends on how many in terms of practicality and visual impact (Does it look right ?) your layout will take i.e. no tail chasing.

 

I 've set my limit at 8 or for the Golden Arrow 8 lit Pullmans plus baggage van.And 8 for a representation of The Caledonian in BR (M) days is about right.

[ikks]

Hornby Engine Shed showed 'Sir William Stanier' easily hauling a rake of eight Mk1 maroon coaches whish is adequate for most layouts.

 

Hattons said 'Sir William Stanier' and 'Duchess of Atholl' both due in November although 'Sir William Stanier' has sold out on pre-order.

 

Not sure why 'Sir William Stanier' is more popular. Whether more people are modelling the BR late crest period, they prefer duchesses with smoke deflectors or because no-one has modelled the Ivatt version before.

Perhaps the name, livery!! and portrayal of the last two Ivatt locomotives, when I copped 56 & 57 in the late fifties I did not notice the detail differences..... although they were hurtling through Tamworth at 80 plus but at Crewe when they were stationery.......different story!  I always thought that these versions would be popular, think I might be right for once  .

 

Mike

[MikeParkin65]

Sir William Stammer was retained for a fortnight after the rest of the class were withdrawn to work the Scottish BORDERER Railtour between Crewe and Carlisle.It was polished up to the dead nines and looked absolutely magnificent - like a brand new model.

On return to Crewe it was promptly withdrawn and send for scrapping which was carried out almost immediately.Ive a couple of dvds of the Waverley route where the train is seen arriving at Carlisle and the TVP programme " Britain's lost mainline" shows it in all its glory that day.

A real tragedy

There was a short article in Steam Railway magazine a while ago on the scrapping of 46256. It may be apocryphal but it was suggested that the staff at the scrapyard (Cashmores at Tipton?) asked whether 46256 had been dispatched to them by mistake such was its sparkling condition.