Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[robmcg]

Here you go guv'nor...

 

 

picture edited, will remove if required,

 

cheers,

 

[Paul_sterling]

In retrospect now I have the Duchesses in front of me I found the new version and old version are very very similar indeed they are so similar I don’t have any real incentive to part with the old ones.

 

The new one has an opening ventilation cover roof and the rest of it is very very similar though it is a new tooling, as you can see the different representations and impressions on the design that show difference between the new and the old, the tender doesn’t have much to give either.

 

I think once 46235 city ofBirmingham has been made I will probably be reluctant to buy any more, except for City of Salford ( BR Green with yellow cab side stripe please).

 

However I am proactively looking for an older 46252 City of Lichfield in BR lined black, given how good Duchess of Hamilton looks in the same livery.

 

I think a new princess would’ve been a much better option indeed I think a Princess is much more overdue as the older one looks dated. Maybe Hornby might be adventurous and give us a turbo, and a rebuilt 6202 also, given its history it is still one very engrained into Railway enthusiast DNA, we’ve had 71000 and a P2 and even Tornado from Hornby, so it shows there is a market for one offs.

 

The new Duchess is a very good model but at the same time the old one was also very good model.I think this is a risk going forwards as re-making models that are really not that bad Is going to limit sales as there’s less desire to “upgrade”.

 

I too had planned to sell my 6233 Duchess of Sutherland, but it still shapes up well to the new pair, in most aspects barring colour (the new ones really make 6233 look pale), everywhere else 46229 and 46256 look like a tightened and toned up version, the steam collector for example, cab roof etc. 

 

The re-tooling of models has always been a funny one for me, as sometimes the changes are so subtle (to my untrained eye) that on an eBay ad for example, I have to check the model serial numbers and such info to see if its an old or new tooled model! the last incarnation of BR green 46233 that a friend has even has the fixed rear truck, and is somewhat different in tooling to my 6233, so even the outgoing generation of Hornby Duchess got a number of improvements over its life-cycle. Bachmanns shift from Split chassis to DCC ready chassis is another case example, where from a picture, it is not immedaitely obvious work has been done. 

 

Paul. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Paul_sterling

[JSpencer]

Rather enjoyed the comparison with 30 year old kits, so here is a "me too", comparing my Ivatt Duchess with Turbomotive. Like the post before, the iPhone has lightened the paint colour on the kit loco which is actually closer to Hornby's colour.

 

I have to say, the valve gear on Turbomotive is no where as complex as the other two kits! ;-)

 

Despite having a trailing pony, Turbomotive won,t run on anything less than 3 ft radius. Which was fine for a club with 4ft, but cannot run on my current layout.

 

Enjoy the pick:image.jpg

 

 

Well I cracked for one of these Ivatt Duchesses. Possibly the ultimate UK express power. I am always surprised BR did Duke of Gloucester than a BR version of these.

 

Anyway here are pics :

 

First surprise Hornby provide twice instructions on how to remove the tender body! (This is not a complaint just an observation).

image.jpg

 

Four Hornby Duchesses side by side. Bottom, 1977s Duchess of Sutherland, this is the only one with working lamps. A 90s Duchess, tooling on the front was changed to from the sweeping up of Sutherland to cut through. Top, one of the last previous versions of Hornby's Duchess, City of Edinburgh in Semi form. Just below her, the new Sir William Stanier. The original tender drive ones had no mould joint running across the dome and top feed, while the last loco drive previous version did. This is fixed on Stanier.

image.jpg

 

Comparing the two cab interiors between Stanier left and Edinburgh right. In practice you won,t see these interiors on the layout, even if the cab roof vents can open (by about 2mm) on Stanier, unless you have set track curves.

image.jpg

 

The front bogie is greatly improved on the new model being sprung/attach to the loco chassis in the middle rather than a long slim bar running backwards to between the front drivers of the previous model. The new model has sand pipes too.

 

image.jpg

 

On the previous version, the coal could be removed while the new Stanier has reverted back to a tender full of moulded coal with no option to remove it or see the trimming part. (The recent Merchant navies also have removable coal).

Edit: the coal can be removed from Stanier to reveal the coal pusher. But not very easily.

 

image.jpg

 

Overall the model is better than the previous one before, it is heavier, but not as heavy as a Britannia. While better, this model shows the last previous ones were very good. In most visible areas, other than those sited above, there is little to choose between them. Did Hornby loose the previous tools?

Still very happy with my Ivatt version, and equally happy with the older City of Edinburgh.

 

 

In retrospect now I have the Duchesses in front of me I found the new version and old version are very very similar indeed they are so similar I don’t have any real incentive to part with the old ones.

 

The new one has an opening ventilation cover roof and the rest of it is very very similar though it is a new tooling, as you can see the different representations and impressions on the design that show difference between the new and the old, the tender doesn’t have much to give either.

 

I think once 46235 city ofBirmingham has been made I will probably be reluctant to buy any more, except for City of Salford ( BR Green with yellow cab side stripe please).

 

However I am proactively looking for an older 46252 City of Lichfield in BR lined black, given how good Duchess of Hamilton looks in the same livery.

 

I think a new princess would’ve been a much better option indeed I think a Princess is much more overdue as the older one looks dated. Maybe Hornby might be adventurous and give us a turbo, and a rebuilt 6202 also, given its history it is still one very engrained into Railway enthusiast DNA, we’ve had 71000 and a P2 and even Tornado from Hornby, so it shows there is a market for one offs.

 

The new Duchess is a very good model but at the same time the old one was also very good model.I think this is a risk going forwards as re-making models that are really not that bad Is going to limit sales as there’s less desire to “upgrade”.

 

I agree that the previous version and the new can sit side by side and you would not really notice it was new tooling. Of course this depends which previous loco drive version you have as some of the early ones still carried over parts from the old tender drives. By the end though, there was nothing left.

 

Overall differences are, detailed cab, far better front bogie, more weight, opening roof vent, no seem on the dome and of course the Ivatt version is available. I include my two previous posts showing a comparison between the two (note, I found out later that the coal does remove) and also my post showing the Ivatt version next to my Turbomotive.

[MikeParkin65]

I agree that the previous version and the new can sit side by side and you would not really notice it was new tooling. Of course this depends which previous loco drive version you have as some of the early ones still carried over parts from the old tender drives. By the end though, there was nothing left.

 

Overall differences are, detailed cab, far better front bogie, more weight, opening roof vent, no seem on the dome and of course the Ivatt version is available. I include my two previous posts showing a comparison between the two (note, I found out later that the coal does remove) and also my post showing the Ivatt version next to my Turbomotive.

No arguments that the previous version was dimensionally accurate and a pretty good model and I have said on here I will be keeping mine. But to say there is little difference between old and new does a dis service to Paul Isles and Hornby. There is a wealth of new surface detail (compare the rivets on the running boards for example) a proper representation of the front frames, the 'face' is better (helped by the inner cylinder covers being up to the correct height) the detail on the boiler top, proper flanged driving wheels with prototype bevels etc etc.

 

Simon Kohler in the latest MREMAG says that the previous Duchess, introduced at the same time as the first China made Merchant Navy was very much 'second fiddle' to the MN - so it wasnt even considered super detailed in 2001, never mind 16 years later. I am very grateful to Hornby for the new Duchess - it can now stand on the track next to anything RTR made this century and look on a par. 

[Pete the Elaner]

I think a new princess would’ve been a much better option indeed I think a Princess is much more overdue as the older one looks dated. Maybe Hornby might be adventurous and give us a turbo, and a rebuilt 6202 also, given its history it is still one very engrained into Railway enthusiast DNA, we’ve had 71000 and a P2 and even Tornado from Hornby, so it shows there is a market for one offs.

Maybe an updated Princess is somewhere on their list? Wasn't the previous Duchess introduced after the existing Princess? There were less major differences too: None were permanently modified with double chimneys or smoke deflectors, the running plate was the same.

Would the Turbomotive sell? I would buy it in more than 1 of its LMS forms but it is one of my favourites. As Princess Anne, it only ever ran for 2 months before being destroyed, so has no scope for producing modifications or change of livery. It had a non-standard running plate so would require specific tooling.

In contrast, Tornado is running now & has run in more than 1 livery. Duke of Gloucester ran in the 50s/60s & has also run in preservation so there is more scope for either of these two.

[coachmann]

Logic tells me there will be no new 'Princess Royals' for some years to come. It is reasonable to assume the LMS Stanier and Ivatt 'Duchesses' will follow the same pattern as the GWR Kings and will feature many different names, liveries and detail differences, some with sound, some not and some as boxed sets. Collectors will buy every variant no doubt.

[MikeParkin65]

I wouldn't rule out a new Princess in the foreseeable future. It ticks a lot of boxes for what what seems to sell for Hornby, well known loco, named, 2 preserved, , several livery versions, 'glamorous' express class, as attractive to collectors as modellers etc.

 

And of course as model it also has all the obvious resonances to Hornby as a brand. 

[John Tomlinson]

In retrospect now I have the Duchesses in front of me I found the new version and old version are very very similar indeed they are so similar I don’t have any real incentive to part with the old ones.

 

The new one has an opening ventilation cover roof and the rest of it is very very similar though it is a new tooling, as you can see the different representations and impressions on the design that show difference between the new and the old, the tender doesn’t have much to give either.

 

I think once 46235 city ofBirmingham has been made I will probably be reluctant to buy any more, except for City of Salford ( BR Green with yellow cab side stripe please).

 

However I am proactively looking for an older 46252 City of Lichfield in BR lined black, given how good Duchess of Hamilton looks in the same livery.

 

I think a new princess would’ve been a much better option indeed I think a Princess is much more overdue as the older one looks dated. Maybe Hornby might be adventurous and give us a turbo, and a rebuilt 6202 also, given its history it is still one very engrained into Railway enthusiast DNA, we’ve had 71000 and a P2 and even Tornado from Hornby, so it shows there is a market for one offs.

 

The new Duchess is a very good model but at the same time the old one was also very good model.I think this is a risk going forwards as re-making models that are really not that bad Is going to limit sales as there’s less desire to “upgrade”.

 

There was one on ebay earlier this week, can't remember what exactly it went for but nothing particularly special. So they do appear!

 

John.

[JSpencer]

No arguments that the previous version was dimensionally accurate and a pretty good model and I have said on here I will be keeping mine. But to say there is little difference between old and new does a dis service to Paul Isles and Hornby. There is a wealth of new surface detail (compare the rivets on the running boards for example) a proper representation of the front frames, the 'face' is better (helped by the inner cylinder covers being up to the correct height) the detail on the boiler top, proper flanged driving wheels with prototype bevels etc etc.

 

Simon Kohler in the latest MREMAG says that the previous Duchess, introduced at the same time as the first China made Merchant Navy was very much 'second fiddle' to the MN - so it wasnt even considered super detailed in 2001, never mind 16 years later. I am very grateful to Hornby for the new Duchess - it can now stand on the track next to anything RTR made this century and look on a par. 

 

I would not argue with that though I did not say "little difference between them". On a casual look, they can sit side by side and you would not know they were different toolings. When you look closer you start to see those details of course.

Likewise the rebuilt Merchant Navy could also do with a similar upgrading. It looks (and is) less detailed than rebuilt light pacifics and no where near as strong in pulling power. However as others have said, while the improvement is certainly there, the previous version does not look out of place and many also find the current prices too prohibitive to replace existing models one for one.

 

I would buy a new rebuilt MN, but would not dispose of the old.

[coachmann]

Oh dear!  Coachmann, sir, I really hope you're wrong!!  Whilst the previously tooled Duchesses were very good indeed, I don't think the same can be said of the Princesses, and I would really like to see (and buy of course) models of the Princesses in their various guises.  And of course, Hornby can trace its beginnings to both the pre-war O gauge and Tri-ang OO gauge models.  Time for a new thread:  Hornby to Introduce Retooled Princess Royal Class!!

I am simply using logic and applying it to the world of plastic mass-produced ready-to-run.  My involvement with choosing what to produce in the high-end RTR market never failed to put bread on the table for the past 45 years, so I put my tuppence worth in to see where it lands.

[Brocp]

I am simply using logic and applying it to the world of plastic mass-produced ready-to-run. My involvement with choosing what to produce in the high-end RTR market never failed to put bread on the table for the past 45 years, so I put my tuppence worth in to see where it lands.

I think while not for 2018, 2019 will be a better bet for us to see a Princess, they'll have the sales figures from the new Duchess, which so far have been brilliant i assume. Probably a new rebuilt MN next, but the Princess is a must and it will sell as well.

[adb968008]

I think while not for 2018, 2019 will be a better bet for us to see a Princess, they'll have the sales figures from the new Duchess, which so far have been brilliant i assume. Probably a new rebuilt MN next, but the Princess is a must and it will sell as well.

Don’t forget that trip to the the NRM for lbsc drawings they teased us with in the last collectors magazine.

[robmcg]

Good point, I am just hoping Hornby will make a pitch, so to speak.

 

What would be your view of the Coronation Scot ever being produced?  I would like to try building one of Comet's 50' kitchen cars for my Caledonian train, and if that goes well then I could branch out and get the whole nine cars of the CS.

 

Can any of the existing excellent flush-glazed 50' LMS carriages be used for the CS?

Edited December 14, 2017 by robmcg

[coachmann]

Can any of the existing excellent flush-glazed 50' LMS carriages be used for the CS?

I think they could with a repaint in striped livery and removal of the roof vents so that a long strip of plastikard could go up there to represent the roof top ducting. But seeing as the Hornby Duchess is not streamlined, why bother just now.  But as far as LMS coach types go, RTR has barely scratched the surface.

[pH]

Maybe an updated Princess is somewhere on their list? Wasn't the previous Duchess introduced after the existing Princess? There were less major differences too: None were permanently modified with double chimneys or smoke deflectors, the running plate was the same.

 

Enough visible changes over time, though. 46205's different valvegear arrangement. 46212's smokebox door with clips round the rim instead of central fastening. Boilers/fireboxes with/without dome and with/without combustion chamber. At least 4 different tender types - straight-sided, 9 ton, 10 ton and 10 ton with coal pusher. And there's always the (temporary,as you say) double chimney on 6201.  

[sandwich station]

Aka....semis or Duchesses....."PC"   is a long phrase to roll off the tongue if you're standing with your notebook at the north end of Crewe station or in the field at Tamworth.

 

That is true. I tend to call them "Coronations" and "Princesses" (for the Royals) just to add more confusion.

[Colin_McLeod]

To add more confusion I used to call them "Cities" until I realised they were not all named after cities.

[County of Yorkshire]

In retrospect now I have the Duchesses in front of me I found the new version and old version are very very similar indeed they are so similar I don’t have any real incentive to part with the old ones.

 

The new one has an opening ventilation cover roof and the rest of it is very very similar though it is a new tooling, as you can see the different representations and impressions on the design that show difference between the new and the old, the tender doesn’t have much to give either.

 

I think once 46235 city ofBirmingham has been made I will probably be reluctant to buy any more, except for City of Salford ( BR Green with yellow cab side stripe please).

 

However I am proactively looking for an older 46252 City of Lichfield in BR lined black, given how good Duchess of Hamilton looks in the same livery.

 

I think a new princess would’ve been a much better option indeed I think a Princess is much more overdue as the older one looks dated. Maybe Hornby might be adventurous and give us a turbo, and a rebuilt 6202 also, given its history it is still one very engrained into Railway enthusiast DNA, we’ve had 71000 and a P2 and even Tornado from Hornby, so it shows there is a market for one offs.

 

The new Duchess is a very good model but at the same time the old one was also very good model.I think this is a risk going forwards as re-making models that are really not that bad Is going to limit sales as there’s less desire to “upgrade”.

Would agree with all this. Telling that almost all thus far released variants of the new GWR King have wound their way into the bargain bin. I think of late you can pick up the Great - Crest - Western liveried King for a penny under £70! (My future Great Western Main Line(!) layout is not necessarily quailing at this!)

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi CoY

 

If I remember correctly the King was Xmas 15/16 and the year before we were all encouraged to shell out for DoG (another disaster) which was subsequently reissued and flooded the market in the same way that there were Kings everywhere (some of which had a duff chassis - again).

Would agree with all this. Telling that almost all thus far released variants of the new GWR King have wound their way into the bargain bin. I think of late you can pick up the Great - Crest - Western liveried King for a penny under £70! .

Regards

 

Ray

[Ian Hargrave]

Hi CoY

 

If I remember correctly the King was Xmas 15/16 and the year before we were all encouraged to shell out for DoG (another disaster) which was subsequently reissued and flooded the market in the same way that there were Kings everywhere (some of which had a duff chassis - again).

 

Regards

 

Ray

And I well remember your posts and "fix" for 71000.

[coachmann]

Hi CoY

 

If I remember correctly the King was Xmas 15/16 and the year before we were all encouraged to shell out for DoG (another disaster) which was subsequently reissued and flooded the market in the same way that there were Kings everywhere (some of which had a duff chassis - again).

Regards

 

Ray

Sorry Ray but you have a funny idea of what constitutes a disaster. Hornby gave buyers a very good inexpensive Duke of Gloucester (remember it was a one-off) and railway modellers like myself the basis of a super-detailing job. People could always pay over £400.00 for one in metal if they consider the Hornby toy isn't good enough for them.

[Silver Sidelines]

I do tend to get carried away with my descriptions.  My wife knows I have disasters where she only suffers minor disappointments!

 

.. you have a funny idea of what constitutes a disaster. ..

 

DoG was still pretty dire, plastic etched plates and models that shorted out and had to be returned - not to mention ones where the wheels were not quartered properly.  It was advertised with a five pole motor but produced with a three pole version.  £100.0 in Xmas 13/14 was not cheap.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[cctransuk]

I do tend to get carried away with my descriptions.  My wife knows I have disasters where she only suffers minor disappointments!

 

 

DoG was still pretty dire, plastic etched plates and models that shorted out and had to be returned - not to mention ones where the wheels were not quartered properly.  It was advertised with a five pole motor but produced with a three pole version.  £100.0 in Xmas 13/14 was not cheap.

 

Regards

 

Ray

 

No - still can't accept even 'dire'.

 

Mine benefitted from some cosmetic improvements - not least a repaint - but it was what I normally expect in an RTR model; the basis of something far better.

 

I couldn't afford museum quality RTR, but I can turn an affordable model into something approaching musem quality.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Brocp]

I do tend to get carried away with my descriptions.  My wife knows I have disasters where she only suffers minor disappointments!

 

 

 

DoG was still pretty dire, plastic etched plates and models that shorted out and had to be returned - not to mention ones where the wheels were not quartered properly.  It was advertised with a five pole motor but produced with a three pole version.  £100.0 in Xmas 13/14 was not cheap.

 

Regards

 

Ray

With a bit of modelling, it can scrub up not too bad. At the end of the day you don't need to buy it either. This is mine and as it was cheap, i was more than happy to make it this. Everything is Hornby parts, new buffers, shaved down deflectors, tender from new Brit and Gibson bogie wheels. Yeah it's not as fine as the Brit, but it's still a good model.

[robmcg]

I actually found the DoG to be a very nice model, and the 1960 version was for me the best of them. I don't even mind the paint.

 

If there are any left in shops, like the Kings undoubtedly are, it is more likely that the supply has exceeded demand, not because of 3-pole or 5-pole motors. each has its share of quality control issues as do almost all current 00 RTR models.

 

You cannot give away B17s, S15s, Kings, 700s, or Bachmann Compounds at the moment, but you won't find many DoG 1960 versions around...

 

just my twopennyworth

 

p.s. I had a duff 'new' Sir William A Stanier rather like Andy Y's review model, but I got a refund, and bought a good one. 

 

And my!  Doesn't a DoG look impressive in lined black! 

 

Here is my DoG in BR condition  shameless editing, not modelling like the above or Coachmann..

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by robmcg