Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[adb968008]

..........or even an LMS open third, these in periods 1, 2 & 3 were every day bread and butter coaches,

and built in their 100's, and in later days were seen all over the country, S&D, South coast excursions etc.

Had there been a ' porthole ' open third, we may have seen one from Bachmann. But where are Hornby

who apparently need to make lots of money. Big sales there I'm sure. An untapped market awaits !.

I’ve got my Replica Railways ones, they sit ok in the rake, even today.

If they flush glazed them they would be ok for today.

 

I recently looked over their FO, and it was actually taking the edge on Hornbys new one. Therrs nothing wrong with their flush glazed BG.. it sells second hand on ebay for more than they sell new on Replicas Website., a handsome £13.50...just need decent wheels and new couplings.

Edited January 16, 2018 by adb968008

[Methuselah]

I only got back into model railways a year ago - so I'm very out of touch. I recently acquired a Hornby streamlined City of Birmingham, 6235. It seems very detailed and runs well too. It's the 'Super-detailed' loco-drive version with pick-ups also on the tender & all metal handrails etc, but I'm not sure of the Hornby number. I have some questions for the experts here;-

 

1. The rear pony-truck is articulated with flanged wheels. Why do they need to be flangeless on the new version...?

 

2. I see on the Hornby website that they will be releasing new streamlined versions too. What are the issues/problems, scale &/or mechanical, with the old ones like mine...?

 

3. What are the main advantages of the latest version...?

 

Many Thanks.... :-)

[No Decorum]

I only got back into model railways a year ago - so I'm very out of touch. I recently acquired a Hornby streamlined City of Birmingham, 6235. It seems very detailed and runs well too. It's the 'Super-detailed' loco-drive version with pick-ups also on the tender & all metal handrails etc, but I'm not sure of the Hornby number. I have some questions for the experts here;-

 

1. The rear pony-truck is articulated with flanged wheels. Why do they need to be flangeless on the new version...?

 

2. I see on the Hornby website that they will be releasing new streamlined versions too. What are the issues/problems, scale &/or mechanical, with the old ones like mine...?

 

3. What are the main advantages of the latest version...?

 

Many Thanks.... :-)

Welcome back! I hope you find the hobby gives you as much pleasure as ever.

 

1. Red rag to a bull! I hate it! The problem lies with curves far tighter than scale in order to fit track into tight spaces. No full-size loco is ever faced by such tight curves. Many modellers dislike a trailing truck which sticks out at odd angles on tight curves and think, quite correctly, that it is unrealistic. Hornby evidently agreed and has for years produced fixed trucks on Pacifics. In order to get around tight curves, the trailing wheels have no flanges and float slightly above the railhead. However, as many people seem to hate the fixed truck as approve of it. Hornby’s new Duchess (point 3) is an improvement. Spare flanged trailing wheels come with the model so that, if your layout has gentle curves, you can have flanged trailing wheels. I had to do a little carving to get them to fit and be able to turn but Hornby has managed to sell me one. My first Hornby Duchess to supplement my ancient ones.

 

2. I cannot comment in detail on the older streamlined Coronation because I haven’t got one. However, one feature which put me off getting one was the rim of the centre driving wheels which jarred with the other driving wheels. The new wheels are not only consistent but have much more Stanier-like rims.

 

3. No-one can comment in detail on the new Coronation because it hasn’t appeared yet. However, based on the new Duchess (unstreamlined), the detail is likely to be finer. There was a big fuss about the colour of the Duchess, with many thinking it was too dark. Hornby matched the colour to surviving paint samples and I think it is fair to say that the doubters have been won over. Not only the shade but the sheen of the new models is very attractive and I suspect that we may look forward to a very high standard of finish on the new models. I should think that Hornby will be using the same chassis as on the existing Duchesses. I don’t know about your version but the new one comes with provision to fit a decoder and loudspeaker, if you favour DCC. Tender pickups on older Hornby models bore onto the wheels rims; they increased drag and sometimes even prevented the tender wheels turning. I think the new model has a better arrangement although I can’t be certain without taking the thing apart. Taking the tender top off is reported to be rather tricky.

 

Hornby has attempted to provide alternative close coupling between locomotive and tender but has rather messed it up. Obstructions prevent the drawbar being fixed on its shorter setting. Perhaps it’s not especially difficult to trim the drawbar or fashion a new one but it’s a boob nonetheless. Providing a second shorter drawbar would be the simplest solution.

 

For the rest, we shall just have to wait to see what Hornby produces.

 

I hope this (from a non-expert) helps.

[Methuselah]

No Decorum;- Many thanks for the detailed reply. After a break of over forty years, thing have changed a bit, so I've been on a steep learning trajectory these past twelve months...! I've been building an inventory, learning...and planning.

 

1. That was about what I thought, but there is clearly some muddled thinking out there, as there is no logic to blaming the loco for being able to cope with absurdly tight curves. I'd much rather have a properly articulating pony with flanged wheels. Using an unarticulated truck with flangeless wheels is at odds with what appears to me to be huge progress in RTR.

 

2. My loco says it's made in China. It does have flanges on the centre-drivers, unlike the models of old, but the flange may be a bit smaller. To be honest - it's not terribly noticeable on mine - but we all perceive things individually. BTW - my model has a double-chimney, but one hole is blanked-off. Is this prototypically correct for a Streamliner...?

 

3. I do intend to use DCC on all locos - although I'm rather dismayed at the extra cost of the sound-enabled decoders. Perhaps the cheaper TTS version will suffice for me. (I have a TTS set-up for my Hornby King, but haven't fitted it yet.). You are right about the drawbars. It's an old chestnut. I've always thought that this should be an adjustable feature. Some of my locos have fall-plates, which is great, but I do think that on some locos the lack of cab doors really detracts. I can understand why they are omitted - but there has to be a simple idiot-proof solution, - sliding, rubber or whatever. After all, they are invariably fitted to models of Tank locos.

 

     I'll wait and see what the new loco turns-out like before I decide what to do, but I'll probably keep this one anyway. I'd quite like a 'naked' version, as built as a contrast, partly as I only remember them that way. Earlier in the thread someone posted a black LMS version which I would find very tempting. I'm a GW fan at heart - but I do remember being quite awed at the sight of the Coronations at places the old Birmingham New Street. They looked quite menacing and really huge, but sadly, by then, they were invariably too filthy to see what colour they were...

 

Now I have another related question regarding stock. I know there was a special articulated train, a one-off that went to the states, I'm guessing that isn't available at 4mm. That begs the question - is the correct stock available for the streamliners RTR..? Were all the coached that carried the stripes just standard stock tarted-up, - or were they special..? I'm thinking that I could add the stripes to otherwise standard crimson coaches.... Any input appreciated.

[sandwich station]

This is why Hornby changed to a fixed truck.

The original super detailed version that swings doesn't look prototypical below the footplate.

 

 

 

The later fixed truck version does.

 

 

 

With the streamliner it's doesn't really matter, as you can't see below the footplate.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by sandwich station

[G-BOAF]

With the streamliner it's doesn't really matter, as you can't see below the footplate.

 

 

 

Except for the bit between the truck and the rear driving wheel....

[No Decorum]

No Decorum;- Many thanks for the detailed reply. After a break of over forty years, thing have changed a bit, so I've been on a steep learning trajectory these past twelve months...! I've been building an inventory, learning...and planning.

 

1. That was about what I thought, but there is clearly some muddled thinking out there, as there is no logic to blaming the loco for being able to cope with absurdly tight curves. I'd much rather have a properly articulating pony with flanged wheels. Using an unarticulated truck with flangeless wheels is at odds with what appears to me to be huge progress in RTR.

 

2. My loco says it's made in China. It does have flanges on the centre-drivers, unlike the models of old, but the flange may be a bit smaller. To be honest - it's not terribly noticeable on mine - but we all perceive things individually. BTW - my model has a double-chimney, but one hole is blanked-off. Is this prototypically correct for a Streamliner...?

 

3. I do intend to use DCC on all locos - although I'm rather dismayed at the extra cost of the sound-enabled decoders. Perhaps the cheaper TTS version will suffice for me. (I have a TTS set-up for my Hornby King, but haven't fitted it yet.). You are right about the drawbars. It's an old chestnut. I've always thought that this should be an adjustable feature. Some of my locos have fall-plates, which is great, but I do think that on some locos the lack of cab doors really detracts. I can understand why they are omitted - but there has to be a simple idiot-proof solution, - sliding, rubber or whatever. After all, they are invariably fitted to models of Tank locos.

 

     I'll wait and see what the new loco turns-out like before I decide what to do, but I'll probably keep this one anyway. I'd quite like a 'naked' version, as built as a contrast, partly as I only remember them that way. Earlier in the thread someone posted a black LMS version which I would find very tempting. I'm a GW fan at heart - but I do remember being quite awed at the sight of the Coronations at places the old Birmingham New Street. They looked quite menacing and really huge, but sadly, by then, they were invariably too filthy to see what colour they were...

 

Now I have another related question regarding stock. I know there was a special articulated train, a one-off that went to the states, I'm guessing that isn't available at 4mm. That begs the question - is the correct stock available for the streamliners RTR..? Were all the coached that carried the stripes just standard stock tarted-up, - or were they special..? I'm thinking that I could add the stripes to otherwise standard crimson coaches.... Any input appreciated.

I have to agree with you about the pony truck (not everyone will) but the Duchesses show signs of the problem being addressed.

 

I have never heard of a full-sized, double-chimneyed locomotive with one chimney blanked off.

 

As for sound, this is only my own opinion but I find that TTS sound is fine for diesels but not for steamers. Diesels notch up and down and engine speed increases and decreases in steps accordingly. Steam locomotives don’t work that way and TTS decoders do not synchronise with the wheels. Worse than that, they speed up and slow down in steps. That said, many find them acceptable. The quality of the sound is, I think, good but I’d rather pay the extra for a high-quality sound project.

 

The train which was produced was just standard stock with a special striped finish. The coaches were not even up to the standard of the latest Hornby Stanier coaches to appear. That said, the streamliners hauled more than the special stock. I don’t see a problem with buying a rake of LMS red Stanier coaches to go with one, especially a red Coronation. As luck would have it, these have recently appeared as re-runs. Watch out for the twelve-wheeled restaurant car, though, it isn’t a recent tooling like the rest. Someone may well give me an argument but such a train would be fine by my low standards.

 

As I posted, sandwich station has posted excellent pictures to illustrate the opposing view of the trailing truck.

 

EDIT: if you want a long train on the cheap, there are always Dapol’s older mouldings of LMS coaches.

Edited January 20, 2018 by No Decorum

[Methuselah]

Thanks to Sandwich Man for the excellent comparative photos. It's certainly less obvious with the streamlined version. I'm fortunate enough to have plenty of space for my layout, although there are bound to be some tighter radii off-scene & in the fiddle-yard as I'll probably just recycle some used points for that.

 

G-BOAF is right that the gap still shows, but it''s not so glaring a digression on the streamlined version.

 

Thanks also to No Decorum for the helpful comments. Sound is new for me. It's a great idea - but seems rather an anticlimax in practice. (Especially at around £100 each.). I'm not into diesels, except the few pre-war ones, but the sound for diesels in general is brilliant - very impressive in fact, just more 'throaty'. The steam sounds usually seem very tinny and scratchy by comparison - I presume this may be due to the diesels being a better sound box.....and perhaps the smaller space in steam locos restricts the size of speaker... Anyway, they seem all treble and no bass, but perhaps that's my old lug-holes to blame...!

 

Were all the real 1:1 striped coaches special - or did they just stripe some ordinary stock?

 

As a matter of interest - are these models capable of pulling a scale length train.....maybe a dozen - on the level..?

[sandwich station]

Except for the bit between the truck and the rear driving wheel....

But now we are just splitting hairs. I would except the swinging truck on the streamliner as good enough but not on the un-streamlined version after seeing the one with the fixed truck.

[daltonparva]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the last few streamliners Hornby made had fixed rear trucks with exchangeable wheel sets.

[sandwich station]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the last few streamliners Hornby made had fixed rear trucks with exchangeable wheel sets.

 

 

No hadn't forgotten, I was just saying I would except the older style of pony truck on a streamliner as it's flaws are mostly hidden. I only posted a pic of the moving truck streamliner as that was the type that Methuselah was talking about.

In fact both types of Princess Coronations have had the fixed truck for quite a while, it didn't appear with last years models.  

[No Decorum]

Thanks to Sandwich Man for the excellent comparative photos. It's certainly less obvious with the streamlined version. I'm fortunate enough to have plenty of space for my layout, although there are bound to be some tighter radii off-scene & in the fiddle-yard as I'll probably just recycle some used points for that.

 

G-BOAF is right that the gap still shows, but it''s not so glaring a digression on the streamlined version.

 

Thanks also to No Decorum for the helpful comments. Sound is new for me. It's a great idea - but seems rather an anticlimax in practice. (Especially at around £100 each.). I'm not into diesels, except the few pre-war ones, but the sound for diesels in general is brilliant - very impressive in fact, just more 'throaty'. The steam sounds usually seem very tinny and scratchy by comparison - I presume this may be due to the diesels being a better sound box.....and perhaps the smaller space in steam locos restricts the size of speaker... Anyway, they seem all treble and no bass, but perhaps that's my old lug-holes to blame...!

 

Were all the real 1:1 striped coaches special - or did they just stripe some ordinary stock?

 

As a matter of interest - are these models capable of pulling a scale length train.....maybe a dozen - on the level..?

Indeed sound is a great idea. I was brought up with the idea that large speakers are vital for deep sound. To a great extent, that is still true but remarkable progress has been made. I thought that sugar cube speakers were only for small locos until I was persuaded to try a setup with one in each end of a Class 37 instead of a single bass reflex speaker. I was amazed by how good the result was. Nevertheless, there is still no diesel sound that will reverberate in ones chest like the real thing nor steam sound which will capture the deep “woof” of a steamer starting. For all that, the whistles, especially chime whistles, sound fantastic and, in my opinion, the sound is a good representation and sound projects are improving all the time.

 

Some people won’t have anything to do with sound for the reasons you have mentioned and some people just don’t want DCC. That’s fine. There is plenty of room in the hobby for us all. However, there is another dimension to sound. Sound locomotives can just be driven like an ordinary DCC loco but to get the best out of one, it has to be closely controlled or, to put it another way, it has to be driven. I find that an immensely satisfying experience. An example is a diesel reversing onto a train. Light engine, the prime mover idles. Then it couples up and the operator switches to a mode designed for a loco working hard, so that to provide the power needed to shift the train, the prime mover roars, rather than idles. There are lots of other examples.

 

The real striped coaches were special. Perhaps most noticable to the modeller would be the conduit along the roof for pressure heating and ventilation. Some of the coaches were articulated i.e. two adjacent coaches shared one bogie. There were kitchen cars as well, of a type which Hornby has never modelled to my knowledge. Inside they were trimmed with Empire timber veneers, different in each coach, I believe.

 

Yes, they will pull a dozen coaches and more on the level.

[Methuselah]

No Decorum;- Thanks for that. I am going down the DCC route, partly because I like the idea of sound, but also because I want to automate part of my layout. The basic DCC chips seem cheap enough, but I'm clearly going to have to ration the sound chips at around a £100 a throw.... :-/ 'Fortunately' I don't think there is enough space in many of my engines for fitting sound....!

[G-BOAF]

How about a future release of Stanier's 'proper' loco with a streamlined tender. Hornby will have the tooling. This is the first picture I have seen (although I have a Brian Hollingsworth book with an illustration of City of Nottingham in BR Late Crest Maroon with a streamlined tender, but I can't believe this is a correct drawing)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/141498010@N05/27404223823

[Brocp]

How about a future release of Stanier's 'proper' loco with a streamlined tender. Hornby will have the tooling. This is the first picture I have seen (although I have a Brian Hollingsworth book with an illustration of City of Nottingham in BR Late Crest Maroon with a streamlined tender, but I can't believe this is a correct drawing)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/141498010@N05/27404223823

There's pictures of City Of Leicester in the LMS Locomotive Profiles 11 by Wild Swan of her with smoke deflectors and a streamlined tender in a just lije the one you've linked as well. I'm not 100% sure if it ever ran like it though.

 

What i want to see is 6243 like this with the side sheets cut back but the bottom of the streamlining still on the tender.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr/rugby/station/lnwrrm774a.jpg

 

So far Hornby have never done this version before, shame as all of streamliners looked like this during and after the war.

[Francis deWeck]

I have to agree with you about the pony truck (not everyone will) but the Duchesses show signs of the problem being addressed.

 

I have never heard of a full-sized, double-chimneyed locomotive with one chimney blanked off.

 

As for sound, this is only my own opinion but I find that TTS sound is fine for diesels but not for steamers. Diesels notch up and down and engine speed increases and decreases in steps accordingly. Steam locomotives don’t work that way and TTS decoders do not synchronise with the wheels. Worse than that, they speed up and slow down in steps. That said, many find them acceptable. The quality of the sound is, I think, good but I’d rather pay the extra for a high-quality sound project.

 

The train which was produced was just standard stock with a special striped finish. The coaches were not even up to the standard of the latest Hornby Stanier coaches to appear. That said, the streamliners hauled more than the special stock. I don’t see a problem with buying a rake of LMS red Stanier coaches to go with one, especially a red Coronation. As luck would have it, these have recently appeared as re-runs. Watch out for the twelve-wheeled restaurant car, though, it isn’t a recent tooling like the rest. Someone may well give me an argument but such a train would be fine by my low standards.

 

As I posted, sandwich station has posted excellent pictures to illustrate the opposing view of the trailing truck.

 

EDIT: if you want a long train on the cheap, there are always Dapol’s older mouldings of LMS coaches.

The reference to Hornby showing signs of the problems being addressed intrigues me; as I have said in previous posts Hornby have designed a 'one solution fits all - i.e. Brits/Clans, WC/BoB, A1/A3' I cannot see a re-engineering of the design forthcoming, even if it requires a small (maybe expensive) 'adjustment'. Still, as the say in the Hope Valley - live in Hope, and die in Buxton! The omission of the flanged wheels made me wonder about the intent that lies within the production design. If somebody has some concrete info on this subject it would be gratefully received.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Francis deWeck

[peterfgf]

The reference to Hornby showing signs of the problems being addressed intrigues me; as I have said in previous posts Hornby have designed a 'one solution fits all - i.e. Brits/Clans, WC/BoB, A1/A3' I cannot see a re-engineering of the design forthcoming, even if it requires a small (maybe expensive) 'adjustment'. Still, as the say in the Hope Valley - live in Hope, and die in Buxton! The omission of the flanged wheels made me wonder about the intent that lies within the production design. If somebody has some concrete info on this subject it would be gratefully received.

I like the "as the say in the Hope Valley - live in Hope, and die in Buxton!"

I was once in a pub in Sheffield talking to a chap from Bradwell about where to find a good pub in the city.

He said wait "until my son comes back, he lives here, he'll know".  His son came to the bar and he said "This chap here wants to know if there's any cheap pubs in Sheffield". 

I said "That's not what I said", to which he replied "well, you did say you are from Buxton"

Enough siad.

[Colin_McLeod]

Slightly OT but it is a City class seen at the 2016 Meccano exhibition at Skegness.

 

[Black 5 Bear]

In the latest issue of Hornby magazine there is a feature on the forthcoming City of Birmingham tts Stanier Pacific.

The article states that this loco is now shown as a March release, the Hornby website however still have it listed for a May.

[sandwich station]

Slightly OT but it is a City class seen at the 2016 Meccano exhibition at Skegness.

Princess Coronation Class City Class were GWR

[MikeParkin65]

Slightly OT but it is a City class seen at the 2016 Meccano exhibition at Skegness.

FB_IMG_1518113025995.jpg

Not sure about the shade of maroon and the AWS battery box is on the wrong side. Other than that it’s nearly as good as Hornby’s lol

[Colin_McLeod]

Princess Coronation Class City Class were GWR

See previous discussion

[G-BOAF]

In the latest issue of Hornby magazine there is a feature on the forthcoming City of Birmingham tts Stanier Pacific.

The article states that this loco is now shown as a March release, the Hornby website however still have it listed for a May.

Now down as March on the Hornby website

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-4-6-2-city-of-birmingham-princess-coronation-class-modified-with-tts-sound-1.html

 

Very excited for this release; finally get my hands on what I hope will be the first of the three preserved Duchesses! And hope it arrives sitting true and in one piece!

I wonder what tweaks there will be from the first batch? I assume this IS a separate production run, or have the models been sitting round since last year awaiting sound decoders to be produced?

On which note the solo TTS decoders are not due until August, so it doesn't seem like the Duchess TTS decoders are tied into that batch.... confusing.

[MikeParkin65]

Now down as March on the Hornby website

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/br-4-6-2-city-of-birmingham-princess-coronation-class-modified-with-tts-sound-1.html

 

Very excited for this release; finally get my hands on what I hope will be the first of the three preserved Duchesses! 

46229 already been and gone

[G-BOAF]

46229 already been and gone

yes, I'm waiting for it in a sensible (non-gloss) livery, not the showroom finish with unrealistic reflections that matches none of the rest of my stock...!

No way will the most popular member of the class not be released in a sensible finish and batch size... (I hope)