Bachmann Rep Limited Editions

[JSpencer]

At the end of the day, market forces play into this. If it is sought after, those RRP and even above (to an extent) will sell. If they are not, price will drop in a lot of areas (some may sit on them for years to come and have a return later, if they can).

 

If they sell really well, even at RRP, the only party to loose out (slightly) are Bachmann as they could have made more. On the other hand, this is not an exercise that can be repeated too often. Too many limited editions cause saturation.

 

I can think of one retailer whom has done many exclusive/limited editions over the past six months, there are several items I'd like, but only a few I will actually buy as that is all I intend to spend at this time (you have to keep yourself reasonable or you become obsessed, obsession is to the dark side of the hobby.....).

[Western Dave]

Article 101(2) of the Treaty of Rome covers this and is very well summed up by simply searching Google. Article 101(3) establishes exemptions, if the collusion is for distributional or technological innovation, gives consumers a "fair share" of the benefit and does not include unreasonable restraints that risk eliminating competition. My view at the time and still is, this would give small shops like Arcadia and ourselves a  fair chance against others.

 

This was not a meeting convened to discuss this one loco, simply the launch of Bachmann products in January 2017. There were lots of other products launched that day and no discussion of any other prices. It wasn't even a discussion it was a nod of the head. If we had all decided to sell at £200 plus then that would have been disgraceful.

 

What happened in other Rep areas, I have no idea although I did read on this forum of a shop, not within our area being questioned as to why they were advertising a lower price compared to others in their area. When I say "doubt it will happen again". Meaning why agree to sell one loco at a given price, when there is always someone who will seek an advantage. You didn't say if you bought the Anglia, someone bought six also discussed on this page.

 

I will stand up for Hatton's, your shggesting that Hatton's were forming some sort of cartel and blackballing others is so wide of the mark as to be off the side of this page. It wasn't their suggestion. As I presume you were not at the lauch you are writing  something that the last time I checked was illegal, it's called Libel.

 

Not in sequence to your questions, however, you suggest that Arcadia may be the ones to lose out, why? They made the decision to charge what they want, that is their perogative. If they make £20 less per unit, that is their decision. Selling eight to one customer is also their decision, as others have suggested, did they think it was a very large collector....?  When I refused it was because I knew they would end up on Ebay, or did you think he was an avid collector who wanted a large rake of class 47's? I asked this caller where he was off to next and he said he was heading down the M6. Wonder if he was going to Stafford Exhibition to purchase even more?

 

Trying not to bore the readers over this, have you any idea of the overall profit if I was to sell all my allocation on one day? It would not cover the rent for a couple of days.

I think the CMA would take a very different view to any sort of price agreements and or manipulations intentional or otherwise. In my business sector 2 years ago there was a massive CMA investigation and one manufacturer was fined £17 million on a turnover of £180 million 2 others were severely sanctioned and 18 dealers were also sanctioned. The result was a free for all in the market when everybody woke up and smelt the coffee that in this day an age you cannot have these sort of agreements which are deemed to work against the consumer. The powers of the CMA are huge and I would not advise anybody in any trade to enter into or agree to any sort of pricing "arrangement" without having it checked out by a qualified specialist solicitor.

 

The issues here are caused in the main by distribution channels not being managed by manufacturers and certain businesses (in all trades) seemingly not wanting to make a profit and shift vast numbers of boxes without actually realising the damage they are doing to their own business (lack of profit to reinvest) and their own business sector. If manufacturers/importers actually set up modern clear distribution channels most of these issues and conversations would not be needed.

[FMR]

Bachmann 32-815RJ the Limited Edition Class 47 'John Scott' for Northern Region retailers is now in stock.

It is in Direct Rail Services 'Compass' livery. It is DCC ready (21 pin)

[Ryde-on-time]

Or you could pay this for an Anglia version on EBay...

But they don't have a business account

 

Ebay rules are pretty clear that if you list items purchased to resell for profit you should have a business account. They might look at their actions as getting a bit of extra cash but they are a small business

 

Perhaps worth reporting those to ebay listing multiple locos? Not sure if ebay will take action but I know a few years ago they were very hot on forcing certain sellers to upgrade to a business account (people selling cloths of different sizes for instance)

 

Perhaps they might think twice if they had to have a business account, include on listings their name/address/phone number and be more visible to the HMRC etc?

[adb968008]

Surely the easier way to manage this is to limit the number of purchases per customer ?

 

Back in the good old days, Lima would announce a limited edition of 850, collect 2000+ orders, then ration them out, with everyone getting 1/3 what they ordered.

 

I don’t know how many shops are on a reps patch, but if it was around 100-150 (a somewhat informed guess), and a limited edition of 550, that gives a default quota of 4-5 per shop. If shops decline/order less, this opens the door for a top up order to other shops.

 

It kind of goes back to a suggestion I’ve made several times,..

 

If models came with a unique serial number added at the factory and printed on the box... all warranty issues are covered, as the registration could be scanned at point of sale online, theft issues are covered as the buyer has a unique purchase reference, and in this case carpet baggers would be exposed, as peddling second hand goods that they haven’t sourced from the manufacturer.

For a manufacturers perspective it provides a marketing heaven..demographics on interest clusters, amount spent, demand, time a model is retained before resale etc etc..

 

We’re 90% there already, if it’s limited with a certificate..just add a Barcode and a website/database to store details.

 

My washing machine/dvd/stero even my office printer all costs less than some locomotives now on sale and have this by default.

Edited February 6, 2018 by adb968008

[classy52]

Article 101(2) of the Treaty of Rome covers this and is very well summed up by simply searching Google. Article 101(3) establishes exemptions, if the collusion is for distributional or technological innovation, gives consumers a "fair share" of the benefit and does not include unreasonable restraints that risk eliminating competition. My view at the time and still is, this would give small shops like Arcadia and ourselves a  fair chance against others.

 

This was not a meeting convened to discuss this one loco, simply the launch of Bachmann products in January 2017. There were lots of other products launched that day and no discussion of any other prices. It wasn't even a discussion it was a nod of the head. If we had all decided to sell at £200 plus then that would have been disgraceful.

 

What happened in other Rep areas, I have no idea although I did read on this forum of a shop, not within our area being questioned as to why they were advertising a lower price compared to others in their area. When I say "doubt it will happen again". Meaning why agree to sell one loco at a given price, when there is always someone who will seek an advantage. You didn't say if you bought the Anglia, someone bought six also discussed on this page.

 

I will stand up for Hatton's, your shggesting that Hatton's were forming some sort of cartel and blackballing others is so wide of the mark as to be off the side of this page. It wasn't their suggestion. As I presume you were not at the lauch you are writing  something that the last time I checked was illegal, it's called Libel.

 

Not in sequence to your questions, however, you suggest that Arcadia may be the ones to lose out, why? They made the decision to charge what they want, that is their perogative. If they make £20 less per unit, that is their decision. Selling eight to one customer is also their decision, as others have suggested, did they think it was a very large collector....?  When I refused it was because I knew they would end up on Ebay, or did you think he was an avid collector who wanted a large rake of class 47's? I asked this caller where he was off to next and he said he was heading down the M6. Wonder if he was going to Stafford Exhibition to purchase even more?

 

Trying not to bore the readers over this, have you any idea of the overall profit if I was to sell all my allocation on one day? It would not cover the rent for a couple of days.

 

Agree this subject can get drawn out and boring as everyone has different opinions on the matter thus would end up going around in circles.

Btw why would you bring libel into it considering I only said something that I don't want to see in the future, a bit strong and uncalled for don't you think?...if it makes you feel better I'll edit out the retailers name.

No I didn't buy the Anglia because of the amount of Ltd. Editions I have bought recently and what's coming from Rails this month with both 66's so decided the Anglia can be left out but yes I'm glad if retailers do refuse to sell more than 2 units to a customer of these specials but how that person got six Anglia's I suppose is for Bachmann to worry about or not, if you're thinking it, no it wasn't me that bought the 6 Anglia's and trying fleece customers on eBay.

I only said Arcadia would lose out by not making as much profit as the rest of you since they were selling at £18.95 below RRP, if they're still making profit on that price then fair enough and purely their decision not to make anymore on top of that and perhaps Arcadia have a great business model to accommodate this.

Lastly, I think Bachmann should outline a clearer plan with you retailers going forward with these special editions because it seems all over the place atm causing angst amongst the group, sour taste, and allowing people to purchase more than 2 units for profiteering purposes.

Edited February 6, 2018 by classy52

[Widnes Model Centre]

I think the CMA would take a very different view to any sort of price agreements and or manipulations intentional or otherwise. In my business sector 2 years ago there was a massive CMA investigation and one manufacturer was fined £17 million on a turnover of £180 million 2 others were severely sanctioned and 18 dealers were also sanctioned. The result was a free for all in the market when everybody woke up and smelt the coffee that in this day an age you cannot have these sort of agreements which are deemed to work against the consumer. The powers of the CMA are huge and I would not advise anybody in any trade to enter into or agree to any sort of pricing "arrangement" without having it checked out by a qualified specialist solicitor.

 

The issues here are caused in the main by distribution channels not being managed by manufacturers and certain businesses (in all trades) seemingly not wanting to make a profit and shift vast numbers of boxes without actually realising the damage they are doing to their own business (lack of profit to reinvest) and their own business sector. If manufacturers/importers actually set up modern clear distribution channels most of these issues and conversations would not be needed.

 

Hi Western Dave, a few years ago I would have totally agreed with this.

 

We had sought advice on the point of price fixing and competition in a businesss we were concerned exactly the same as above. We took advice from three separate sources. End result was the same from all three.

[GordonC]

Surely the easier way to manage this is to limit the number of purchases per customer ?

 

Back in the good old days, Lima would announce a limited edition of 850, collect 2000+ orders, then ration them out, with everyone getting 1/3 what they ordered.

 

I don’t know how many shops are on a reps patch, but if it was around 100-150 (a somewhat informed guess), and a limited edition of 550, that gives a default quota of 4-5 per shop. If shops decline/order less, this opens the door for a top up order to other shops.

 

It kind of goes back to a suggestion I’ve made several times,..

 

If models came with a unique serial number added at the factory and printed on the box... all warranty issues are covered, as the registration could be scanned at point of sale online, theft issues are covered as the buyer has a unique purchase reference, and in this case carpet baggers would be exposed, as peddling second hand goods that they haven’t sourced from the manufacturer.

For a manufacturers perspective it provides a marketing heaven..demographics on interest clusters, amount spent, demand, time a model is retained before resale etc etc..

 

We’re 90% there already, if it’s limited with a certificate..just add a Barcode and a website/database to store details.

 

My washing machine/dvd/stero even my office printer all costs less than some locomotives now on sale and have this by default.

 

Would the reps really have as many as 100-150 shops each on their patch? I'd be very surprised if it was as many as that

 

I really like the idea of the reps limited editions and think it a good thing to share amongst the shops smaller than those that can commission a full run of their own

Edited February 6, 2018 by GordonC

[Western Dave]

Hi Western Dave, a few years ago I would have totally agreed with this.

 

We had sought advice on the point of price fixing and competition in a businesss we were concerned exactly the same as above. We took advice from three separate sources. End result was the same from all three.

So long as your happy that's all that really matters, its your business and that should be respected. Although I have quite considerable business experience (in my view) I don't have a detailed knowledge of this trade enough to be specific but from what I have seen written here I would be seriously concerned and would certainly not have been putting into the public domain some of what has been as it is only going to cause comment and ill feeling in some quarters, as the old saying goes "a little knowledge is often dangerous" and pricing for many reasons is a hot topic on this forum at the moment

[brittannia]

As for Arcadia, their pricing policy on all items has always been to discount to a level of other outlets, it seems a bit churlish to to complain on one item and model shop, considering .that others also have discounted on the "Reps 47s "..Tim has never been a person to try to outdo other retailers, he just wants his customers to have a pleasant visit and obviously come back to buy more.For a small shop he has a fantastic range of models in all gauges , UK and Continental.

[Widnes Model Centre]

As for Arcadia, their pricing policy on all items has always been to discount to a level of other outlets, it seems a bit churlish to to complain on one item and model shop, considering .that others also have discounted on the "Reps 47s "..Tim has never been a person to try to outdo other retailers, he just wants his customers to have a pleasant visit and obviously come back to buy more.For a small shop he has a fantastic range of models in all gauges , UK and Continental.

 

Don't disagree, what annoyed me was the caller a) asking me to price match them.b) telling me, he had agreed to buy 8 from there c) offering to buy all mine, when he was clearly going to profit from his purchases, presumably once all the shops had sold out. In relation to Arcadia, some of my customers shop there. If anybody is looking for Continental, I point them to Arcadia.

[Wicor Models]

Would the reps really have as many as 100-150 shops each on their patch? I'd be very surprised if it was as many as that

 

I really like the idea of the reps limited editions and think it a good thing to share amongst the shops smaller than those that can commission a full run of their own

Yes they would and possibly more in some areas.

[Steamport Southport]

I would be surprised if there was 100 to 150 retailers stocking Bachmann in the whole country.

 

And if there are, where are they? I can only think of about 10 in the North West.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited February 6, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[adb968008]

As I said my guess was educated.

It depends on the reps territory size and geography.

Having a late father as a retired model railway sales rep, gave me some insight.

 

The high street might be shrinking but it’s bigger than you might think.

 

I deliberately painted a broad brush 100-150 per territory, Ive a very good idea of the national number of shops out there, I think I could be much more accurate but I don’t think it’s appropriate to do so, nor is it Bachmanns numbers i’d be quoting so I will not expand further.

Putting a salesman’s head on for a second, if a rep has less than a 100 shops, i’d be guessing his SIP or salary reflects that or they are big spending shops... most smaller shops don’t buy locos in 10’s or even 4’s or even in some cases even 1 of.. nor do they stock the entire range of anyone vendor, with much only stocked to specific customer order.. a sales guy needs sales to make his number, and there isn’t a Hattons on every high street nationwide, model railway salesmen need to be farmers not just big game hunters.. small shops make a difference, and if they don’t shout out on the web for sales, they might not for purchases either.

 

Taking it on a personal level, I was in York last month, and walked past three model shops, without looking, not every city is York..(I live in London and have paltry options around me), but shops are still out there, I reckon I could list 100+Bona Fide shops from memory just whom I have visited or purchased from online for my own collection.

 

Anyways we’re digressing.

Edited February 6, 2018 by adb968008

[Wicor Models]

I would be surprised if there was 100 to 150 retailers stocking Bachmann in the whole country.

 

And if there are, where are they? I can only think of about 10 in the North West.

 

 

 

 

Jason

There are at least 25 Bachmann stockists in Yorkshire alone, we're in Hampshire and here we have 8 Bachmann stockists and this is repeated throughout the country.  Our rep's area stretches from the South East right down to Cornwall and I believe he said he had one of the smaller areas but even so he had over 100 outlets.

[John M Upton]

Isn't that the area that just has the internal user Army van instead of a loco?  Not seen much excitement about that on here!!!

[ba14eagle]

Isn't that the area that just has the internal user Army van instead of a loco?  Not seen much excitement about that on here!!!

Don't we have 47625 "City of Truro" too?

 

http://news.Bachmann.co.uk/2018/02/city-truro-class-47-sales-area-exclusive/

Edited February 6, 2018 by ba14eagle

[Wicor Models]

Isn't that the area that just has the internal user Army van instead of a loco?  Not seen much excitement about that on here!!!

 

 

Don't we have 47625 "City of Truro" too?

 

http://news.Bachmann.co.uk/2018/02/city-truro-class-47-sales-area-exclusive/

Yes we do!

[Andy Y]

Bachmann produced its area representative models to encourage sales within the designated territory. This would have encouraged buyers to look at their local shops and also for buyers to seek stockists in other areas that they may not have previously dealt with if they sought a product which was from another rep's area.

 

Bachmann sets a recommended retail price for its products. Should retailers bizarrely wish to discard their full margins on what was likely to be a high demand item produced in limited numbers (504) then they were free to do so. As evidenced in this topic some models are keenly sought after and I would have thought the wiser thing to do (I do have quite a bit of retail background) would have been to establish what the prevailing price was that customers were buying at before undercutting anyone else - all that has been achieved in such cases is that they got into the customer's wallet quicker than someone else who would have made more profit and can keep the lights burning for longer.

 

I've seen it at shows where only two retailers may have a newly released item in stock and they enter a race to undercut each other for maximum sales on the day. Profit is sanity and all that.

[Legend]

As for Arcadia, their pricing policy on all items has always been to discount to a level of other outlets, it seems a bit churlish to to complain on one item and model shop, considering .that others also have discounted on the "Reps 47s "..Tim has never been a person to try to outdo other retailers, he just wants his customers to have a pleasant visit and obviously come back to buy more.For a small shop he has a fantastic range of models in all gauges , UK and Continental.

One of the best shops around in fact. Suspect he may have made a mistake in pricing here or simply forgotten. He has been ill in the period between ordering and actually receiving these to sell. That said I don’t hold with price agreements. Let each retailer decide their own price.

[Legend]

I think the CMA would take a very different view to any sort of price agreements and or manipulations intentional or otherwise. In my business sector 2 years ago there was a massive CMA investigation and one manufacturer was fined £17 million on a turnover of £180 million 2 others were severely sanctioned and 18 dealers were also sanctioned. The result was a free for all in the market when everybody woke up and smelt the coffee that in this day an age you cannot have these sort of agreements which are deemed to work against the consumer. The powers of the CMA are huge and I would not advise anybody in any trade to enter into or agree to any sort of pricing "arrangement" without having it checked out by a qualified specialist solicitor.

 

The issues here are caused in the main by distribution channels not being managed by manufacturers and certain businesses (in all trades) seemingly not wanting to make a profit and shift vast numbers of boxes without actually realising the damage they are doing to their own business (lack of profit to reinvest) and their own business sector. If manufacturers/importers actually set up modern clear distribution channels most of these issues and conversations would not be needed.

Must admit I’m surprised at this free talk of all getting together and setting a price. I thought this was prohibited. The company I work for has very explicit guidelines on what can and cannot be discussed. Certainly not fixing the price to the consumers detriment. It actually prefers us not to talk to competitors at all just in case price fixing is perceived. So it is a very sensitive area and certainly we would never discuss price in a forum where competitors are present. In fact prices are usually only agreed Direct with customer and never divulged elsewhere. And I believe that’s the way it should be Edited February 6, 2018 by Legend

[amwells]

Does anyone know where I might find a Colas one? An Internet trawl is proving fruitless! Ta in advance

[brushman47544]

Does anyone know where I might find a Colas one? An Internet trawl is proving fruitless! Ta in advance

Not seen any photos yet so perhaps it’s one of those that hasn’t arrived yet, and retailers aren’t advertising it until they know they have stock. Invicta in Sidcup have it available for pre-order.

Edited February 6, 2018 by brushman47544

[classy52]

Does anyone know where I might find a Colas one? An Internet trawl is proving fruitless! Ta in advance

 

Hi,

 

Try this model shop where I have pre-ordered my Colas 47, link below.

 

http://hobb-e-mail.com/Bachmann-32816nf-colas-rail-47727-rebecca---preview-12207-p.asp

 

Cheers

Steve

[JSpencer]

Personally I think these regional rep editions are a great idea. It gives all retailers a bite of the desirable cherry allowing them to be promoted instead of these models being kept for the collectors club or an exclusive just one (often major) shop leaving smaller model shops with the lesser desirable items to sell (not that everything in the main catalogue is less desirable of course).

 

Hornby would do well to follow suite.

 

The other trend to note is all the new players on the scene, the two big players have reduced programs, probably primarily due to rising costs but maybe also due to people's spending being diverted into these new players. Few - I feel- of the new players items benefit regular model shops (although they do perhaps offer a platform from which to spring an exclusive) so again these rep specials help bring back customers to regular shops I feel.

 

The next spring could be rep specials based on regular feedback from the zone concerned and voted on by the shops for the next special. Of course the winning vote should be kept close to Bachmann's chest until it's ready for release. Imagine the froth and rumours of trying to guess what it could be from a list of possible items!