New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK

[davefrk]

Tis said somewhere on a motoring site that for the environmental damage that just making these batteries one can run an old car for twenty years and that's not including trying to dispose of the non recyclable batteries presently used, I read recently that there is already a small but growing mountain of these dead batteries. (think fridge mountain in the 80/90s)

A guy on another site who is now running a Nissan Leaf is leasing the batteries for £92 a month but his fuel bill for the old petrol car that was replaced was only about £50 per month, think about that... And that was before the admittedly small charging cost.

At the moment one can't just jump in your electric car and toddle off to your favourite model railway show that's over 100 miles away.

 

Dave Franks.

[30801]

Not only that, but isn't the ethical disposal of these vehicles already a problem?

 

No.

 

EV batteries have an immediate second life as home batteries simply by putting them into a different box. There they'll have a ten year lifespan on top of the ten years or so they lived in a car.

They are already recyclable but not at a lower cost that new lithium. In twenty years time that will probably be different.

[APOLLO]

Had a short ride in a friends Nissan Leaf a few weeks ago. Nice car, impressive acceleration, went 2 miles, range decreased by 5 (he was booting it). Not for me - too expensive at the moment.

 

The big issue (as always) is energy - electricity in this case. My supplier (EDF) is constantly phoning me to install smart meters - no thanks, I know the electricity companies (and the Governments) long term plan is to charge more for electricity at peak times, along with net connected appliances, and frequency monitoring chips in washing machines fridges freezers etc - all to reduce base load at peak - so less new generation is needed.

 

We're slowly getting to "strangulation point" (as I term it).

 

We will have another "Jarrow March" one day to protest - and it will be a march as no one will be able to afford to drive or go by train !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Horsetan]

....At the moment one can't just jump in your electric car and toddle off to your favourite model railway show that's over 100 miles away....

 

You might be able to if you run a Tesla Model S.

[runs as required]

I imagine that some sort of deeply immersive VR product will be required to substitute for the little black beemer that every 22 y.o. male currently aspires to, and the motorbikes that are the usual MLC treatment. (Quite a saving for the NHS when the inevitable crashes are harmless.) Business opportunity there...

Having read the thread about the NYMR vandalised train set, this seems urgently required everywhere from IS suicide bombers to 130 mph Brummy car racers.

 

dh

[30801]

A guy on another site who is now running a Nissan Leaf is leasing the batteries for £92 a month but his fuel bill for the old petrol car that was replaced was only about £50 per month, think about that... And that was before the admittedly small charging cost.

At the moment one can't just jump in your electric car and toddle off to your favourite model railway show that's over 100 miles away.

 

Don't touch a Leaf with a leased battery unless you factor in the cost of buying out the lease. They are impossible to sell. The dealers who take them as PX buy the batteries and sell them on as battery owned.

 

FWIW I've put 6k miles on my 24kW/h Leaf and have used public charging five times.

 

100 mile trips are no bother if there's a rapid charger on the way.

[Dunsignalling]

Tis said somewhere on a motoring site that for the environmental damage that just making these batteries one can run an old car for twenty years and that's not including trying to dispose of the non recyclable batteries presently used, I read recently that there is already a small but growing mountain of these dead batteries. (think fridge mountain in the 80/90s)

A guy on another site who is now running a Nissan Leaf is leasing the batteries for £92 a month but his fuel bill for the old petrol car that was replaced was only about £50 per month, think about that... And that was before the admittedly small charging cost.

At the moment one can't just jump in your electric car and toddle off to your favourite model railway show that's over 100 miles away.

 

Dave Franks.

I think the sums for electric cars like the leaf only really add up if you habitually enter the London congestion zone.

 

If you live out in the sticks, the limited range (and relative absence of charging stations) is still a worry.

 

It doesn't just apply to electric vehicles, though. I was looking at a Triumph Bobber road test the other day. 1200cc bike, claimed mpg 50-ish, tank capacity 2 gallons!. The tester noted the reserve indicator came on after just 68 miles!  I calculate that, from where I live in East Devon, a day trip to Padstow and back (not unreasonable, and something my car does on less than half a tank) would involve topping the thing up at Okehampton Services on the way down, in or near Padstow before coming home, and again at Okehampton on the way back. Hardly carefree motorcycling.

 

John

You might be able to if you run a Tesla Model S.

Yes, but how many of us can shell out £112k for the privilege? 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[PhilH]

Sod it, I'll get on and buy the Aventador now then...

[Dunsignalling]

I think this is more about clean air at the point of use rather than bringing down emissions overall. Electric cars are only more environmentally friendly if that electricity is generated from renewable sources. If it is generated from fossil fuels then all that happens is the pollutants are released at the power station rather than on the road and you lose 1/3 of the energy in moving it across the grid.

 

Electric cars will be great when fusion power finally arrives but that is still 30 years away (just as it has been for the last 50 years).

Q. What's Fusion power?

 

A. 30 years in the future, whenever you ask the question.

 

However, any number of physicists and engineers will continue to enjoy well-paid careers pursuing a probable illusion that nobody is willing to give up on. 

 

John

[luckymucklebackit]

 

If you live out in the sticks, the limited range (and relative absence of charging stations) is still a worry.

 

 

Think current day mobile phone coverage.  The major conurbations will be fine, but rural areas will still need petrol/diesel cars as adequate charging coverage will not reach these areas

 

jim

[runs as required]

I heard Gove on the Today programme this morning being 'absolutely clear' about wanting to leave it  to Local Authorities to devise imaginative solutions. Considering that Local Gov. Minister Eric Pickles had done everything he could to disempower LAs through swingeing 60% cuts, we can expect a rag bag of responses (c.f. Building Regs administration and the Grenfell fire). 

 

I have been convinced that a National scheme for paying for actual metered road usage (like energy bills, replacing road tax and fuel duty) is the only rational way forward. It was successfully trialed by Newcastle university 20 years ago on the city's Western bypass before it opened once the Blaydon bridge was completed.

 

Government's fear of the Clarkson/Top Gear lobby always trumps such research.

The Railway Clearing House performed such a service way before the availabilty of computers and road sensors.

 

dh

[runs as required]

Think current day mobile phone coverage.  The major conurbations will be fine, but rural areas will still need petrol/diesel cars as adequate charging coverage will not reach these areas

 

jim

I think you are forgetting the era of little glass accumulators for inter-war wireless sets - they were still being used when I camped on Skye in the early 1950s.

Also in remote parts of Africa people might cherish a cell phone but lack a SIM card or battery. They will walk a few miles to the local corner shop to pay for the temporary use of these.

 

dh

 

Edit of typos

Edited July 26, 2017 by runs as required

[ian]

I heard Gove on the Today programme this morning being 'absolutely clear' about wanting to leave it  to Local Authorities to devise imaginative solutions.

 

They'll come up with 'imaginative' solutions - but I'll bet they won't be practical ones.

[coachmann]

We use non-fossil fuel to generate electricity then create vastly bigger problems with disposing of the waste. Only Johnny Privatecar is in politicians minds. Buses??? Lorries??? Lorries ferrying in goods from other countries???. Airplanes???  Other countries with differing viewpoints across the globe???   Little 'ol Great Britian saving the world again b*llocks! What price PC and Henry Polar bear when governments could be lobbing weapons at each other at the drop of a hat. In fact, our petrol and diesel cars will burn well if civil war comes along. Both sides identify a problem then think of a way of making loads of loverly lolly out of solving it. Buy shares in batteries! It's called Capitalism. By 2040 I'll be not far off receiving a card if the big house is still occupied...  

Edited July 26, 2017 by coachmann

[Horsetan]

..... how many of us can shell out £112k for the privilege? 

 

I believe secondhand Teslas are coming onto the market now, requiring somewhat fewer £££££

[bmthtrains - David]

From what I understand from those in the car industry, this is happening anyway whether or not governments legislate for it. Most manufacturers have all electric versions of their ranges ready to go, and are simply waiting for the infrastructure to be built to support them. Changes in the makeup of our energy production are also already on an economically driven path to renewables, so by 2050 we should have reduced our carbon emissions by a great deal. Not enough to avoid devastating climate change though, but it's an important start that we can build on, no doubt when it gets really urgent -as that is only when politicians seem to act

 

I fully expect my next car to be my last petrol engine, however given I park in a designated space outside my flat that is away from the building I'm puzzled how I would charge an electric vehicle. I can't wait to own one, but genuinely wonder how problems like this will be solved.

 

David

[Robert]

Gove

 

-rolls eyes-

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Happily those with proper engineering jobs in the motor industry, are way ahead of those who get elected to government.

...given I park in a designated space outside my flat that is away from the building I'm puzzled how I would charge an electric vehicle. I can't wait to own one, but genuinely wonder how problems like this will be solved.

This is one of the factors that makes some degree of autonomy a natural adjunct to electrical cars. You get out at destination, and it parks itself in the nearest convenient spot, ideally a charging location (probably contactless by induction) or alternatively if there is no charging station free it waits and moves onto one when it becomes available. When you next want your car a blip on the remote whatsit summons it to your location.

[Reorte]

Happily those with proper engineering jobs in the motor industry, are way ahead of those who get elected to government.

This is one of the factors that makes some degree of autonomy a natural adjunct to electrical cars. You get out at destination, and it parks itself in the nearest convenient spot, ideally a charging location (probably contactless by induction) or alternatively if there is no charging station free it waits and moves onto one when it becomes available. When you next want your car a blip on the remote whatsit summons it to your location.

Which means extra vehicle movements on the roads. As well as that overall being less efficient (cars moving around completely empty) would it outweigh any advantages of such cars being able to use the road more efficiently? Overall I am almost entirely aganist autonomous cars. Electric cars, on the other hand, a very good move but attempts to claim "no more petrol and diesel!" have all the marks of soundbite politics. Have a goal to get a very significant, but not all, proportion electric and you don't need to solve every problem such as the charging for all one, and you've gained just about all the advantages anyway, with the remaining pollution (for example) issues from conventional vehicles then being negliga ble - assuming there isn't a big one around battery disposal.

 

I do think that all newbuilds should be built with charging provision available for every house or flat, or at least easily fitted at a later date. That sort of legislation would be far more meangingful than "no more petrol from 2040" but isn't as headline grabbing.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Reorte

[30801]

Which means extra vehicle movements on the roads. As well as that overall being less efficient (cars moving around completely empty) would it outweigh any advantages of such cars being able to use the road more efficiently? Overall I am almost entirely aganist autonomous cars.

 

But if you move away from personal car ownership the car can take itself off to the next passenger and you don't need all the space in cities for parking thousands of cars all day.

[PhilH]

Happily those with proper engineering jobs in the motor industry, are way ahead of those who get elected to government.

 

This is one of the factors that makes some degree of autonomy a natural adjunct to electrical cars. You get out at destination, and it parks itself in the nearest convenient spot, ideally a charging location (probably contactless by induction) or alternatively if there is no charging station free it waits and moves onto one when it becomes available. When you next want your car a blip on the remote whatsit summons it to your location.

Can't wait to see autonomous car road rage, squabbling over an empty parking spot...

[chris p bacon]

But if you move away from personal car ownership the car can take itself off to the next passenger and you don't need all the space in cities for parking thousands of cars all day.

 

Aren't they called 'Taxi's'

[30801]

I do think that all newbuilds should be built with charging provision available for every house or flat, or at least easily fitted at a later date. That sort of legislation would be far more meangingful than "no more petrol from 2040" but isn't as headline grabbing.

 

Certainly something like a 32A cable running to some convenient point is trivial to put in a build-time and makes fitting a charger at a later date a five minute job.

All the work in fitting chargers right now is adding a cable run (likely in visible trunking) and connecting/upgrading the existing fuse box.

Aren't they called 'Taxi's'

 

They're called Ubers and the company really wants to do away with the meatbags doing the steering.

[298]

, however given I park in a designated space outside my flat that is away from the building I'm puzzled how I would charge an electric vehicle. I can't wait to own one, but genuinely wonder how problems like this will be solved.

David

It sounds expensive, but all that is really required is a metered connection from a suitable supply, which might mean a bit of trench digging. It won't be too long before such considerations have to be included before planning permission is granted to new build sites.

 

I know of other EV drivers who use free charge points and rarely charge at home, one has claimed to have only spent about £10 all year, and that includes driving to Austria in a 22kW Zoe!

 

So as an EV driver I'm a bit annoyed by the announcement as manufacturers are already ahead of the game and more can be done by the fuel companies to produce less polluting fuel, no doubt the next step will be a limited scrappage scheme for those fraudsters who have failed to maintain their cars properly or worse still paid to have dpf devices bypassed or the cat removed. In the meantime the internet will be full of those who have misconstrued the announcement and assumed they won't be allowed to drive their pride and joy (a Brumingham built Gentleman's sausage extension that probably won't start next week and would have rotted away in 20 years time).

[Dunsignalling]

Happily those with proper engineering jobs in the motor industry, are way ahead of those who get elected to government.

This is one of the factors that makes some degree of autonomy a natural adjunct to electrical cars. You get out at destination, and it parks itself in the nearest convenient spot, ideally a charging location (probably contactless by induction) or alternatively if there is no charging station free it waits and moves onto one when it becomes available. When you next want your car a blip on the remote whatsit summons it to your location.

Which is all fine and dandy so long as it has actually received a (full) charge by the time you need it again.

 

Realistically, about a quarter to a third of parking spaces will need to be equipped for charging if vehicles are autonomous. If human-operated electric cars just get parked on a charge equipped one, thereby denying access to anyone else, charging provision will need to be almost 100%.

 

John