New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK

[Dunsignalling]

Pity there's no simple, practical way of storing the petrol engine and fuel tank in the garden shed and just swapping them in when I need to do a longer journey (and hybrids strike me as the worst of both worlds tax dodge).

How about a trailer mounted generator to hitch onto the back of your EV?

[Andy Hayter]

Would that be a petrol or diesel generator?

[57xx]

This is something I have never been able to understand. I have been driving for over 20 years and it has never been anything other than a necessary chore to get from A to B. The kindest description I would ever give of a car journey is "painless" but it is never something "fun".

 

Whilst I'm the same mindset that a car is a purely utility vehicle and driving bores me, I do however understand people who enjoy driving. My younger brother for example always gets very nice cars and he loves driving them. It's the same enjoyment I get from riding motorbikes and have no qualms about just hopping on the bike just to ride it with no particular destination in mind.

[57xx]

That's another thing about electrics that I can see myself enjoying. I like torquey vehicles, being of the opinion that a torquey power unit can do a pretty effective impression of a powerful one under the right circumstances where the converse is not necessarily the case. Max torque from a standstill sounds like a lot of fun. 

 

Fun, but in the wrong hands...

 

 

Skip to 1:35 from the "fun" 

 

Guess he forgot his tether kill. 

[SM42]

It's 2042 and there you are with 5 miles of range left. Only another 30 to go to get home. 

 

I'll just pop in here for a charge. 

 

Oh it's full. Never mind someone might finish in 14 hours. 

 

I just hope that batteries develop by then. It seems to me that the mobile phone battery in the last 20 years has developed to the stage where it can barely manage to run a phone for  a day and of course some do have a nasty habit of bursting into flames whilst being recharged.

 

Personally I favour hydrogen power as the future. Clean and quick to refill. Of course we could start building a network of overhead electrified mesh over all the roads and then we just need a pick up on the back, like the dodgems (driving in Birmingham won't change then!) . better start now as there's a lot of road to cover. 

 

Still doesn't solve the problem  of particulates from the brakes and tyres or the nitrogen pollution from your central heating  or LPG powered vehicle though. 

 

Andy

Edited July 27, 2017 by SM42

[jjb1970]

I think it is worth considering trains to put this into perspective for railway enthusiasts.

 

The transition from steam to diesel demonstrated quite a few things that have parallels with today:

 

• Where a new technology offers compelling advantages (much greater efficiency, greater utilisation, reduced labour needs, operational flexibility, cleaner, cheaper operational costs etc in the case of diesel trains) then a huge change can be achieved very quickly. From a position of total dominance steam traction was made extinct in a small handful of years. 
• Early adopters often pay a lot for a less than great product, but that can change very quickly. We've already seen EVs go from range anxiety being a big issue to having EVs with sufficient range to meet the great majority of drivers daily needs and they continue to improve. The first diesel trains in the early part of the 20th century were mediocre at best yet even in the early 20's it was apparent to some that the steam engines days were numbered and that diesel and electric trains would soon replace steam.
• For the right product, industry (and society) will change themselves to suit a new technology rather than hammering it into an existing hole. Diesel and electric trains required fundamentally different management, operational and maintenance practices than steam yet railways adapted to the technology and made the transition quickly and effectively.

 

By the mid 1930's it was increasingly obvious that the steam locomotive was finished as diesel technology had reached the point of viable alternative. The war interrupted electrification and the large scale commercialisation of diesel trains yet within not much over a decade after the end of the war steam was all but dead in the USA despite its immense steam fleet, and after a slightly later start and even with the vagaries of the modernisation plan BR achieved the transition in a similar period.

 

Which indicates that major technological change can happen much more quickly than people might imagine and that the capabilities of a new technology in the early period of such a transition are of less importance than its potential.

[Guest]

It's 2042 and there you are with 5 miles of range left. Only another 30 to go to get home. 

 

I'll just pop in here for a charge. 

 

Oh it's full. Never mind someone might finish in 14 hours. 

 

I just hope that batteries develop by then.

Hmm let's see. Right now. Today. A Leaf on a 50kW rapid will gain 30 miles of range in eight and a half minutes.

[APOLLO]

But what about a cold. freezing, rainy winters night. Headlights on, electric heater on, fan on, wipers on, sat nav on, music on, front / rear demisters on etc.

 

How far will 8.5 minutes of charge (or even a full charge) get you ?

 

Brit15

[Arthur]

Fun, but in the wrong hands...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o15EALghp0

 

Guess he forgot his tether kill.  :

 

He did introduce that as the 'killacycle', aptly named it would seem.

 

.

[57xx]

I think it is worth considering trains to put this into perspective for railway enthusiasts.

 

The transition from steam to diesel demonstrated quite a few things that have parallels with today:

 

• Where a new technology offers compelling advantages (much greater efficiency, greater utilisation, reduced labour needs, operational flexibility, cleaner, cheaper operational costs etc in the case of diesel trains) then a huge change can be achieved very quickly. From a position of total dominance steam traction was made extinct in a small handful of years. 
• Early adopters often pay a lot for a less than great product, but that can change very quickly. We've already seen EVs go from range anxiety being a big issue to having EVs with sufficient range to meet the great majority of drivers daily needs and they continue to improve. The first diesel trains in the early part of the 20th century were mediocre at best yet even in the early 20's it was apparent to some that the steam engines days were numbered and that diesel and electric trains would soon replace steam.
• For the right product, industry (and society) will change themselves to suit a new technology rather than hammering it into an existing hole. Diesel and electric trains required fundamentally different management, operational and maintenance practices than steam yet railways adapted to the technology and made the transition quickly and effectively.

 

By the mid 1930's it was increasingly obvious that the steam locomotive was finished as diesel technology had reached the point of viable alternative. The war interrupted electrification and the large scale commercialisation of diesel trains yet within not much over a decade after the end of the war steam was all but dead in the USA despite its immense steam fleet, and after a slightly later start and even with the vagaries of the modernisation plan BR achieved the transition in a similar period.

 

Which indicates that major technological change can happen much more quickly than people might imagine and that the capabilities of a new technology in the early period of such a transition are of less importance than its potential.

 

So what you're saying is, the government are going to pay for several million new electric cars, vans, lorries, buses, m/cycles for everyone? And like the few hundred depots converted to maintain the diesels, they'll pay for several million homes, car parks, motorway services, petrol stations to all be converted with charging points? And get it done quickly?

[Junctionmad]

Tis said somewhere on a motoring site that for the environmental damage that just making these batteries one can run an old car for twenty years and that's not including trying to dispose of the non recyclable batteries presently used, I read recently that there is already a small but growing mountain of these dead batteries. (think fridge mountain in the 80/90s)

A guy on another site who is now running a Nissan Leaf is leasing the batteries for £92 a month but his fuel bill for the old petrol car that was replaced was only about £50 per month, think about that... And that was before the admittedly small charging cost.

At the moment one can't just jump in your electric car and toddle off to your favourite model railway show that's over 100 miles away.

 

Dave Franks.

Balderdash

 

Run my 30 kWh Leaf on night rate , costing around 1.3 euro. Euro cents per mile , that's about 10 times cheaper then any diesel , i have 68,000km after 18 months on the car !

The current Ioniq is returning 200 km , which is over 100 miles , real world driving

 

Next year we have the 2018 leaf with 350 km range , a 50 kWh Hyundai SUV

 

The debate is over , the car companies are already all powering up to a complete EV lineup

 

The " deniers " are beginnng to sound like 1990 smoking campaigners.

 

The electric motor will always beat the 18century bag of bolts that is the internal combustion engine , faster smoother , more durable

 

Batteries will deliver sufficient capacity for the majority of normal users with the next 2 years ,

Edited July 27, 2017 by Junctionmad

[jjb1970]

So what you're saying is, the government are going to pay for several million new electric cars, vans, lorries, buses, m/cycles for everyone? And like the few hundred depots converted to maintain the diesels, they'll pay for several million homes, car parks, motorway services, petrol stations to all be converted with charging points? And get it done quickly?

Oh good grief no, if the government was in charge they'd give the job to DafT. DafT would then decide existing EVs were not good enough and launch a PFI process for nuclear fusion powered cars. After 80 or 90 years they'd reduce the specification to us al getting a monocycle for something like 18 times the gross output of the global economy. On the upside that's still cheaper and faster than the next government failed IT program.

Edited July 27, 2017 by jjb1970

[Dunsignalling]

Would that be a petrol or diesel generator?

Yes

[PhilH]

Balderdash

Run my 30 kWh Leaf on night rate , costing around 1.3 euro. Euro cents per mile , that's about 10 times cheaper then any diesel , i have 68,000km after 18 months on the car !

The current Ioniq is returning 200 km , which is over 100 miles , real world driving

Next year we have the 2018 leaf with 350 km range , a 50 kWh Hyundai SUV

The debate is over , the car companies are already all powering up to a complete EV lineup

The " deniers " are beginnng to sound like 1990 smoking campaigners.

The electric motor will always beat the 18century bag of bolts that is the internal combustion engine , faster smoother , more durable

Batteries will deliver sufficient capacity for the majority of normal users with the next 2 years ,

Good. I like my Merc.

[APOLLO]

I hope the government have read and understand this. (Dec 2016). A National Grid document - and if they don't know then no-one does !!

 

Millions of electric cars charged at home ? - No way.

 

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1221/forecourt-thoughts-v10.pdf

 

Brit15

[Nearholmer]

Given that batteries are the Achilles heel, let's get back to basics, as exemplified by the engineers at Siemens u Halske in 1882, and, more recently, at fairgrounds.

[APOLLO]

Horsetans new car !!!!

 

 

Brit15

[Dunsignalling]

Balderdash

 

Run my 30 kWh Leaf on night rate , costing around 1.3 euro. Euro cents per mile , that's about 10 times cheaper then any diesel , i have 68,000km after 18 months on the car !

The current Ioniq is returning 200 km , which is over 100 miles , real world driving

 

Next year we have the 2018 leaf with 350 km range , a 50 kWh Hyundai SUV

 

The debate is over , the car companies are already all powering up to a complete EV lineup

 

The " deniers " are beginnng to sound like 1990 smoking campaigners.

 

The electric motor will always beat the 18century bag of bolts that is the internal combustion engine , faster smoother , more durable

 

Batteries will deliver sufficient capacity for the majority of normal users with the next 2 years ,

I've already worked out where my personal tipping point will be.

 

Get back to me when the range is over 500 km and I can get a 3-year-old one for under £10k that will last me ten years.

 

For now, I'll stick with my 53mpg-averaging (10p a mile, with the aircon running) turbo diesel, that I expect (from my experience with the previous one) to do all of the above.

 

John

Edited July 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[ian]

Given that batteries are the Achilles heel, let's get back to basics, as exemplified by the engineers at Siemens u Halske in 1882, and, more recently, at fairgrounds.

That is being considered...

 

 

 

(and no, it isn't a photo-shop job).

 

https://www.scania.com/group/en/scania-tests-next-generation-electric-vehicles/

Edited July 27, 2017 by ian

[Guest]

But what about a cold. freezing, rainy winters night. Headlights on, electric heater on, fan on, wipers on, sat nav on, music on, front / rear demisters on etc.

 

How far will 8.5 minutes of charge (or even a full charge) get you ?

 

Brit15

The biggest hit there is the rain. Ancillaries even HVAC don't make much difference. Let's say it'll take ten miles off your range.

[Dunsignalling]

That is being considered...

 

 

 

(and no, it isn't a photo-shop job).

 

https://www.scania.com/group/en/scania-tests-next-generation-electric-vehicles/

That should instil some lane discipline.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I was only half joking.

 

Localised facilities for recharging on the roll, or taking power over long-distances, OHLE on motorways only, might be first steps, as a means of extending range. Pan up as you join the M1, pan down as you leave.

 

That truck did make me think, though. If you fittedit with steel wheels, running on a guideway, you could significantly reduce frictional losses. Then, with a guideway, it would be dead-easy to implement either limited autonomy under electronic control, or join a string of trailers together under the control of one driver ....... and, if you fitted swap-bodies, you could easily use conventional tractors for local distribution.

 

Kevin

[298]

It's 2042 and there you are with 5 miles of range left. Only another 30 to go to get home. 

 

I'll just pop in here for a charge. 

 

Oh it's full. Never mind someone might finish in 14 hours. 

 

 

It's the year 2000 and drivers are panic buying because delivery drivers aren't taking tankers past blockades at fuel depots. The average stock held at filling stations should have sufficed for a week but people are queueing at petrol stations to brim their tanks with 74pence worth (I saw that happen) and arguments are breaking out because someone has gone over their rationed amount. Fake or out of date NHS ID cards are being used where fuel will only be sold to those who work for the emergency services. Prices rocket, as does someone shed when his stash in a wheelie bin explodes. Give it a week and Civil war might break out. I even miss out on a hot date because I can't use 30 miles worth of fuel to go and pick this Bird up.

 

So why do you think I want to charge my car at home...?

[Horsetan]

It's the year 2000 and drivers are panic buying because delivery drivers aren't taking tankers past blockades at fuel depots. The average stock held at filling stations should have sufficed for a week but people are queueing at petrol stations to brim their tanks with 74pence worth (I saw that happen) and arguments are breaking out because someone has gone over their rationed amount.....

 

None of which actually affected me, since LRP and leaded fuel (which my 635CSi ran on) was not rationed, so I never actually had any problem finding fuel.... 

[57xx]

That truck did make me think, though. If you fittedit with steel wheels, running on a guideway, you could significantly reduce frictional losses. Then, with a guideway, it would be dead-easy to implement either limited autonomy under electronic control, or join a string of trailers together under the control of one driver ....... and, if you fitted swap-bodies, you could easily use conventional tractors for local distribution.

 

Nah, it'd never catch on...