SECR P Class 0-6-0T in OO Gauge from Hattons

[Roy Langridge]

32 minutes ago, toby_tl10 said:

Now I'm very curious. Should new batch of models be more expensive or cheaper than the previous batch? One side says the price should go up because of inflation - rise in labour cost, material cost, shipping cost; the other side says it should go down because the tooling cost has been covered. Who is correct?

 

 

But there you are assuming that the tooling costs were recouped on the previous runs, something that I don't think that we know for 100%. It is likely, but not certain. In the past it was not unheard of for tooling costs to be recouped over multiple runs.

Roy

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, toby_tl10 said:

I know the answer has to be "depends", so the question becomes what factors does this depend on?

Size of order, marketing as a loss leader to drum up orders or range product, multiple batch deal with the factory, new factory looking for business, old factory offering a deal in a quiet period etc etc loads of reasons possible.
It seems a bit odd to me to lower the price when it was already considered very competitive for a quality product and could be ploughed back into other schemes without moans but Hattons know what they’re doing so they must have a good reason. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by PaulRhB

[Ian Hargrave]

Cheap as chips ( well almost) and as good as it gets in rtr terms. Look forward to more trips with Rapido wagons. Sam ( him of “The Trains …whisper it softly ) got this one right. Hattons have the Midas Touch here. My dead frogs are resurrected to the challenge.

 

[gwrrob]

The second run of their warwell is also cheaper than the first one and a very positive move.

[JSpencer]

14 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

Now I'm very curious. Should new batch of models be more expensive or cheaper than the previous batch? One side says the price should go up because of inflation - rise in labour cost, material cost, shipping cost; the other side says it should go down because the tooling cost has been covered. Who is correct?

 

I know the answer has to be "depends", so the question becomes what factors does this depend on?

 

(This is not a manufacturer vs consumer situation, as we've seen both cases happen. Sometimes new batches are more expensive, sometimes they're cheaper. It's not a consumer's unrealistic wish. I'm also not suggesting this is a manufacturer vs manufacturer situation, as we can see both cases happen with the same manufacturer.)

 

To Quote Margaret Thatcher "Just rejoice at that news and congratulate...." .....Hattons for doing another splendid run of P class at excellent prices. 

[JSpencer]

13 hours ago, MattR said:

So very tempted and trying to find a reason to preorder one. At the moment my SECR passenger stock is being handled by the Hornby Terrier in SECR livery. I might have to sell it on (Modelu crew and all) to justify grabbing one of these little beauties.

 

Both the Terrier and the P class worked on the Sheppy line (though not at the same time I believe), it will make a nice contrast having both. And nothing to pay until 2024.

[Johan DC]

Good news, unfortunately nothing there for me. Not my region of interrest, but they do look nice.

And the price is even better! But no, I don't need one. Wrong colour and railway company.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, anyway, I ordered Bluebell. Any great storytellers that could bring her to 1930's York? 😋

[phil-b259]

On 21/04/2023 at 10:25, Johan DC said:

 

So, anyway, I ordered Bluebell. Any great storytellers that could bring her to 1930's York? 😋

not without a Tardis….

 

Although I guess you could invent a history where they got sold off to industrial service, the new owner was a fan of the SECR livery , had a favourite pet called Bluebell so named the loco thus - and sent it to York for repair.

Edited July 8, 2023 by phil-b259

[Andy Hayter]

18 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

But there you are assuming that the tooling costs were recouped on the previous runs, something that I don't think that we know for 100%. It is likely, but not certain. In the past it was not unheard of for tooling costs to be recouped over multiple runs.

Roy

 

Now we are in the realms of accountancy practices.

 

If the model did not physically recoup its tooling costs on the first run, it must have been sold at a loss.  Unlikely I would suggest - but certainly not impossible. 

 

However how the accountants handle the cost of tooling is a completely other matter.  They may choose to take the profit from a first run and completely depreciate the tooling - which is maybe what Hattons have done*.  They may equally decide to depreciate the tooling in part only.  The tooling still has value and the tooling costs have not been covered by the first run on the books at least.  

 

*  If the first run was originally planned as a one off run, then the tooling should have been written down in total against that first run.  The tooling still exists however and so any subsequent runs - should the market be there for them - in theory does not need to cover tooling costs.  Hence you might choose to sell the second run at a reduced price** - or not if you think the market will stand a second run at the original or higher price.

 

Certainly if it is anticipated that a model will run for several campaigns, there is a good accountancy argument to depreciate the tooling in part only.

 

** There is a danger however that if second runs are always cheaper than first runs, people may put off their purchases until the second run with the consequence that the first run is not a success and there is no second run.

 

 

[NHY 581]

19 hours ago, MattR said:

So very tempted and trying to find a reason to preorder one. At the moment my SECR passenger stock is being handled by the Hornby Terrier in SECR livery. I might have to sell it on (Modelu crew and all) to justify grabbing one of these little beauties.

 

There's no need. 

 

5 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Both the Terrier and the P class worked on the Sheppy line (though not at the same time I believe), it will make a nice contrast having both. And nothing to pay until 2024.

 

Spot on. Terrier 751 was bought for the Sheppey Railway where it stayed until sent for a new boiler in 1909. P class No.27 took over going there more or less from new. Shared the passenger services with steam Railmotors. The Terrier looked very different with a Wainwright boiler after rebuild. 

 

Rob. 

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Now we are in the realms of accountancy practices.

 

If the model did not physically recoup its tooling costs on the first run, it must have been sold at a loss.  Unlikely I would suggest - but certainly not impossible. 

 

However how the accountants handle the cost of tooling is a completely other matter.  They may choose to take the profit from a first run and completely depreciate the tooling - which is maybe what Hattons have done*.  They may equally decide to depreciate the tooling in part only.  The tooling still has value and the tooling costs have not been covered by the first run on the books at least.  

 

*  If the first run was originally planned as a one off run, then the tooling should have been written down in total against that first run.  The tooling still exists however and so any subsequent runs - should the market be there for them - in theory does not need to cover tooling costs.  Hence you might choose to sell the second run at a reduced price** - or not if you think the market will stand a second run at the original or higher price.

 

Certainly if it is anticipated that a model will run for several campaigns, there is a good accountancy argument to depreciate the tooling in part only.

 

** There is a danger however that if second runs are always cheaper than first runs, people may put off their purchases until the second run with the consequence that the first run is not a success and there is no second run.

 

 

 

Absolutely. We also need to consider that even if tooling costs are recovered in the first run, they can represent an investment by Hattons. It may be that profit on the first was deliberately minimal (or zero) so as to keep the model cost low and that the business case was to use the same price on second run (and any more subsequent runs), Hattons thereby gaining a return on that investment. 

Whatever the case, we are seeing a fantastic model at a fantastic price, Hattons have dones well.

 

Roy

[MattR]

Thank you, JSpencer and NHY -- that settles it then! I've gone ahead and preordered. 😬

[BedeHistory731]

I preordered a preserved Bluebell, as I am a sucker for unique preservation liveries.

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

I really want one of these, maybe even two. But I cannot for the life of me decide which one (or two) to get. 

[JSpencer]

11 hours ago, Rich Uncle Skeleton said:

I really want one of these, maybe even two. But I cannot for the life of me decide which one (or two) to get. 

 

I suppose looking at what you could run it with and which era might help. Bluebell, strictly preservation, 325 in  SECR, only ran as such in SECR days, 178 in unlined green, works both in preserved and SECR days......

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

11 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

I suppose looking at what you could run it with and which era might help. Bluebell, strictly preservation, 325 in  SECR, only ran as such in SECR days, 178 in unlined green, works both in preserved and SECR days......

I don’t have a 00 layout yet, and when I do it won’t be set anywhere in particular so I’ll be able to run anything. I like the SECR goods, the southern Black is very smart but the lined SECR is so nice it would be a waste not to buy it!

Edited June 27, 2023 by Rich Uncle Skeleton

[Mr chapman]

Really hoping these go ahead. If it's a numbers game declare it. I'm sure given the reasonable price a lot of us would double down to get them over the line. Or perhaps drop a livery of two. Bluebell will sell by the crate but perhaps not the SECR goods green. I have ordered the goods green for the record, just realistically that will probably sell like the ROD models.

[brushman47544]

36 minutes ago, Mr chapman said:

Really hoping these go ahead. If it's a numbers game declare it. I'm sure given the reasonable price a lot of us would double down to get them over the line. Or perhaps drop a livery of two. Bluebell will sell by the crate but perhaps not the SECR goods green. I have ordered the goods green for the record, just realistically that will probably sell like the ROD models.

I suspect it’s more about when they would be delivered and how much of the order has been sold to pre-orders, based on when Hatton’s expects to close. Hopefully the Hatton’s Originals toolings will find a new owner, even if this batch doesn’t go ahead.

[phil-b259]

49 minutes ago, Mr chapman said:

Really hoping these go ahead. If it's a numbers game declare it. I'm sure given the reasonable price a lot of us would double down to get them over the line. Or perhaps drop a livery of two. Bluebell will sell by the crate but perhaps not the SECR goods green. I have ordered the goods green for the record, just realistically that will probably sell like the ROD models.

 

I suspect its not numbers (as in sales) which is the decider - more likely its how much has already been paid out to the factory and how much (if any) can be recovered by pulling the plug.

[NHY 581]

If I remember correctly, these weren't due until April/June'24. Therein may lie the answer. 

 

Rob

Edited January 8 by NHY 581

[Paul_sterling]

1 hour ago, Mr chapman said:

Really hoping these go ahead. If it's a numbers game declare it. I'm sure given the reasonable price a lot of us would double down to get them over the line. Or perhaps drop a livery of two. Bluebell will sell by the crate but perhaps not the SECR goods green. I have ordered the goods green for the record, just realistically that will probably sell like the ROD models.

The only way you'll really know the answer, is to ask them direct if they'd allow a crowd fund or similar to finish the job.

 

My guess is that they'll find a new home like the 66. Which gives some of us hope for a new owner for the 14xx/48xx

 

Paul. 

[NHY 581]

2 minutes ago, Paul_sterling said:

The only way you'll really know the answer, is to ask them direct if they'd allow a crowd fund or similar to finish the job.

 

My guess is that they'll find a new home like the 66. Which gives some of us hope for a new owner for the 14xx/48xx

 

Paul. 

 

The difference is that the P class needs nothing doing. The design is sound. The 14xx on the other hand needs a new chassis. It's rubbish so a new owner needs to take that into account. 

[thecheesemiester]

 

2 hours ago, Mr chapman said:

Really hoping these go ahead. If it's a numbers game declare it. I'm sure given the reasonable price a lot of us would double down to get them over the line. Or perhaps drop a livery of two. Bluebell will sell by the crate but perhaps not the SECR goods green. I have ordered the goods green for the record, just realistically that will probably sell like the ROD models.

I've got two on pre-order and likewise would add another if it would help get them over the line. However I fear even if they had sufficient orders (or people crowdfunded it) the delivery timeline might just be too long for them to able to commit to all the related logistics

[Paul_sterling]

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

 

The difference is that the P class needs nothing doing. The design is sound. The 14xx on the other hand needs a new chassis. It's rubbish so a new owner needs to take that into account. 

If I take on face value the 14xx I got, the chassis is smooth as silk, so it can't be completely bad. Yes I've read the thread. 

 

Paul. 

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, thecheesemiester said:

 

I've got two on pre-order and likewise would add another if it would help get them over the line. However I fear even if they had sufficient orders (or people crowdfunded it) the delivery timeline might just be too long for them to able to commit to all the related logistics

 

You are rather forgetting that the stated intention here is to shut down the business called Hattons as soon as is reasonably possible - not keep it limping on just so more 'Hattons Originals' can be made.

 

Sentiment has no place in business dealings (only sound finical management) - and that doesn't magically change simply because its a much loved model railway retailer.

 

However given the whole point is that the owners of Hattons are trying to close down the business the preference will no doubt be given to reclaiming the cash as to take delivery of anything they have commissioned from China the business itself means keeping the company in existence for longer than would otherwise need to be the case.

 

Hence I believe its simply a case of how much money has already been paid out to Chinese factories and how much (if any) is recoverable if the order for the P tanks is cancelled.

 

If Hattons can recoup most of the money they will pull the plug - if they stand to lose a lot of cash then it makes it worthwhile carrying on with the P tank order.