Pacer Discussions...

[cheesysmith]

But the pacer at least let you view the excelent scenery of the peak district hope valley. We are lucky up here to lie so close to such stunning vistas. And remember, this was made posible by the politics that prevented the closure of the line that meandered slowly between two of the biggest cities up north, with geological problems in the tunnels, with associated higher costs of all these tunnels, due to the need to keep votes in these rural areas, and led to the closure of the better engineered, direct mane line between these two big cities that was also quicker.

 

The survival of the hope valley line was pure politics, and vote buying, nothing more. When we got to the rationalisation of the 80s, BR could only afford 1 route between the 2 cities, so the better line was closed and ripped up.

[31A]

I DON'T hate them.  I'd like to preserve 144022 when it's withdrawn.

[PhilJ W]

There is a pic on Facebook of a 142 broken down in service being hauled by a class 47. If he had to make time up it must have been quite a ride for the passengers.

[ColinK]

Must say I have mixed views on Pacers, having commuted into Manchester on them and more recently riden them on the Cumbrian Coast and Lancaster - Leeds lines. I've even been on one when it caught fire.

 

They have done a good job for many years, with low backed seats the view out is great, but the ride isn't very good, especially on jointed track.

 

Like its basis, the awful Leyland National bus, they just seem almost indestructable.

 

Although its really time for them to bow out, will whatever we get to replace them be any better? Thinking here of nice comfy air con Mk 2 coaches being replaced by dreadful Voyagers.

 

I don't mind riding on a Pacer, but I avoid travelling on a Voyager.

[cheesysmith]

I think a example of each needs to be preserved, just to remind people NOT to do it again. But i also think we need to preserve some PEP stock derivitives, just to show what engineers with limited bugets can do when left to get it done and allowed time to test prototypes before designing production versions.  And preserve a 153/5, just to show how to suscesfully merry the best bits of both. And in 30+ years, preserve a IEP, along with a printout of the costs, to show why you don`t let civil servants design and procure a train. Leave it to the professionals.

Edited October 31, 2017 by cheesysmith

[Reorte]

As for the trains BR was forced to buy in the 80`s, the best was the 156, by a mile. I rate the pacers about equal with the 150`s. They were a train that got the job done, but not without their faults (ps-why can BREL not design a train with drafts, even when new?).

Good point about the 156s, they're pretty decent trains really and rather underappreciated.

[cheesysmith]

The 156 is the true legacy of metro carmel. Before it became a assembly factory for the French.

[FPH 603]

OK,

 

Let's just make this a pacer discussion thread. Like I said earlier I made it for IMAGINARY LOCOMOTIVES THREAD, (what I didn't mention is that there were too many pacer stuff ups, so I moved it here.

 

I don't have too much of an opinion on Pacers, but going off research and also from here they are GENERALLY unpopular with public and I've only SEEN a few, not travelled on them.

 

After this went out of control, I've threatened to post this, but instead I'll post it RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!

 

If you have any livery recommendations then reply here.

Edited November 1, 2017 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[wombatofludham]

As an occaisional user I quite like them.  I thought the 141 was a bit claustrophobic but the 142, 3 and 4s are entertaining.  When their end date is announced for Cardiff Valley routes I'll make the schlep down to the dark side of Brecon to have a last fling.

 

Let's not forget they were built despite the best efforts of Mrs Thatcher, who tolerated trains but was by instinct a pro-road prime minister, to spend as little on public transport as possible and it is to the credit of BR management and engineers that they achieved replacement of the rapidly expiring first generation DMUs with something, even if it had flaws.  The "heritage" DMUs couldn't have kept going for much longer, and that could have left the northern PTEs with a serious problem - and given bus deregulation was in the offing, have left the PTEs with virtually no commuter rail services as the stock just expired and with lots of privateer buses creaming off their traffic. It's not widely known but one of the consequences of de-regulation was the DfT thought PTEs would disappear after a few years, as the free market provided an unsubsidised bus network, and BR would be left to specify what rail services it thought it needed without any local input.  That was actually mentioned in my interview in 1989 when I joined the Centro rapid transit team!

​West Yorkshire in particular should be commended for developing their rail network virtually by stealth by using a combination of Pacers and cheaply built, wooden platform new stations to generate new traffic to the point even the Department for London's Transport couldn't refuse the case for the Aire Valley electrification.  Having worked in a PTE during the 1990s you would not believe the hostility and lack of knowledge the Department for Transport exhibited on regional rail and transport issues.  They genuinely felt everywhere outside London could make do with cars and privatised buses and you had to really have some good figures to justify any expenditure.  Or, as in the case of the Cross City line electrification in Birmingham, a marginal seat at one end of the line with a suicidal sitting MP.

 

I think slagging off the Pacers is doing a lot of dedicated railway and PTE professionals a great dis-service, I'm sure they would have preferred trains with bogies and all mod cons, but they had a Hobson's choice, cut the cloth to fit the budget, or do without - which is actually what the West Midlands decided when told it could have Pacers to replace the Birmingham DMU fleet.  The gamble paid off in Centro's case but it was a close run thing.  We need to re-appraise the role of the Pacer and they absolutely have to have some preserved, just to illustrate just how railway professionals can play the Government at their own game and achieve fleet replacement in the face of Government indifference.

[LNER4479]

Can I join please?

 

Sat waiting for one at the moment for my regular ride - sorry, bounce - on one. Ah, here it comes, squealing and lurching into the station now.

 

Excuse the ride-enduced typos as we sett off. Just how can BR have gone in 15 years from the iconic HST to the ludicrous 14x? My time and theirs on the railway roughly coincide so I feel to hav been blighted by them all my career.

 

Concept. Combine an experimental freight wagon chassis (I recall the RTC yard at Derby being littered with various HSFVs when I first started) and bolt a bus body onto it. Sounds plausible. Then run it on decent CWR in a straight line (not the typical routes it was intended for) and declare it to be a success.

 

Reality. Put it in service on routes characterised by sharply curved, jointed track and womder why problems start to appear. Anyone remember the short-lived 'Skippers' on the Cornish branchlines? Ground to a holt on the Gunnislake branch going downhill!!

 

True story from Newton Heath depot, which was cursed with a large fleet of them. First unit shows up for fitting staff familiarisation, with a 'boffin' from Derby present to answer questions. Fitter asks: 'how do we remove THAT?', pointing to an awkwardly sited pump, just above the engine.

Derby boffin: 'why would you want to remove that?'

Fitter: 'for maintenance purposes' (like - duh!)

Derby boffin: 'But this is a maintenance-free unit!'

Cue general sound of incredulous laughter and one bemused 'boffin'.

 

As our erudite friend above has lucidly outlined, virtually every major system was rebuilt on them over the first ten years. For that reason I just don't buy the 'they were cheap so saved many branchlines' argument. By the time you add on the re-engineering costs you could have built another 50 or so Sprinters and saved us all a whole load of bother.

 

Hate them? I'm actually, genuinely embarrassed by them, to say that I worked within the industry that produced them. Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing and all that but the shortcomings of the concept should have been obvious on the drawing board and the above anecdote shows out-of-touch and short-termist the whole thing was.

 

Phew! Got off the Nodding Donkey. Now waiting for the peerless HST to take me on the rest of my journey. Sanity has returned.

[caradoc]

I also do not hate Pacers, as others have said they allowed BR to keep services going when this was in doubt. Those with replacement seats (ie not bus seats) are reasonably comfortable, as long as they are kept on suitable routes (ie short distance). BTW the comparison with Swiss railways is, as always, biased against the UK; Pacers operate the all-stations stopping services between Manchester and Sheffield, the express services (2 per hour all day) are either class 185 or 4-car Class 158 sets.

[Guest]

Living in rural North Norfolk, I can't get anywhere west by train without taking a massive detour south first. I don't care how bad they're supposed to be, they're better than nothing.

[cheesysmith]

They were cheap, and allowed BR to convince the gov at the time to buy much needed replacement trains, using the con of 2 car pacers replacing 3 car first gen DMU, so saving monies. When you work through all the extra costs of mods done over the years, which would have been foreseeable with proper testing like was done with the PEP stock. A pacer body on a PEP under frame (remember, the PEP stock has separate steel frames with aluminium body, just like the pacers).

[Oldddudders]

I am an occasional user, and my heart sinks when I see them, but really I do not find the experience of being on board between Exeter and Paignton to be much less than that of the alternative 150/153 used on the same route. Ride on decent CWR is good, even at speed, the furniture and fittings are adequate. 

 

Of course the punters deserve better, but being careful what you wish for was never more true than with modern replacement rolling stock!

[Joseph_Pestell]

OK,

 

Let's just make this a pacer discussion thread. Like I said earlier I made it for IMAGINARY LOCOMOTIVES THREAD, (what I didn't mention is that there were too many pacer stuff ups, so I moved it here.

 

I don't have too much of an opinion on Pacers, but going off research and also from here they are GENERALLY unpopular with public and I've only SEEN a few, not travelled on them.

 

RMweb PACERS CLUB CAR 2017 (1).jpg

After this went out of control, I've threatened to post this, but instead I'll post it RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!

 

If you have any livery recommendations then reply here.

Are you going to do a motorisation kit?

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[D854_Tiger]

Let's not forget they were built despite the best efforts of Mrs Thatcher, who tolerated trains but was by instinct a pro-road prime minister, to spend as little on public transport as possible 

 

 

Without getting all political, Thatcher did indeed hate trains and viewed the railway as one of the worst examples of nationalised Britain (even though she baulked at the idea of privatising them). She also regularly referred to the great car economy and apparently once declared anyone that didn't own a car was a failure.

 

But like so much about Thatcher she attracted many popular myths that have since grown to become perceived as fact.

 

However her government's record on rail investment was pretty good, by the standards of the day, and certainly compares well to the Blair government that followed, when Blair infamously declared that transport was not a priority for his government and then proceeded to back that up with one of the worst periods for transport investment, road or rail, bar none.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Without getting all political, Thatcher did indeed hate trains and viewed the railway as one of the worst examples of nationalised Britain (even though she baulked at the idea of privatising them). She also regularly referred to the great car economy and apparently once declared anyone that didn't own a car was a failure.

 

But like so much about Thatcher she attracted many popular myths that have since grown to become perceived as fact.

 

However her government's record on rail investment was pretty good, by the standards of the day, and certainly compares well to the Blair government that followed, when Blair infamously declared that transport was not a priority for his government and then proceeded to back that up with one of the worst periods for transport investment, road or rail, bar none.

I certainly don't recall Blair saying such a thing. But actions speak louder than words (or inactions in this case). Prescott promised electrification to Hull and 20 years on that still seems to be a long way off.

[PhilJ W]

I certainly don't recall Blair saying such a thing. But actions speak louder than words (or inactions in this case). Prescott promised electrification to Hull and 20 years on that still seems to be a long way off.

All of the money went to Railtrack who handed it over to their 'investors' instead of using it to improve the system.

[John_Miles]

I live in South Wales and use the Valley Lines Pacers on a frequent basis. I suggest that those people who like Pacers ask for them to be transferred to where they live, so long as it is not South Wales.

[Steven B]

I think they're great and I sincerly hope that several of each type get preserved. Travelling around the Oldham Loop is nowhere near as fun on a Metrolink Tram. Watching the two halves bounce in different dirrections through the corridor connection is something I'll never forget.

 

I wonder how much better they'd have been if they'd been built to run on three bogies though? I.e. one at each end and a shared one in the middle.

 

Steven B.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Steven B

[Steamport Southport]

Just be careful what you wish for. In my experience the replacement is usually much worse that the thing they are replacing.

 

 

Personally I like them. I hope that a few end up at heritage railways, they would be ideal for running off peak trains for those railways that run a proper service.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Neil]

Quite like Pacers, though not seen here in mid Wales I used to travel on them quite a bit when I lived in York. Arguably one of the most exciting journeys I made was in a late departing Pacer from Hull Paragon trying to make up time on the journey back to York. Not sure how fast they're supposed to go or what they're actually capable of but it's the fastest I've ever travelled in one.

[D854_Tiger]

I was working t'up north and offered a life to Penistone railway station for the train home to the West Midlands.

 

I was dropped off and made my way to the station, whereupon I discovered I had a fifty minute wait for the next train. It was February, already very cold, the wind was howling and then it started to snow in a blizzard kind of way.

 

When my Pacer finally arrived, I though it was a very nice train, in fact, close your eyes, and it could almost have been a Pullman.

[BG John]

I was working t'up north and offered a life to Penistone railway station for the train home to the West Midlands.

 

I was dropped off and made my way to the station, whereupon I discovered I had a fifty minute wait for the next train. It was February, already very cold, the wind was howling and then it started to snow in a blizzard kind of way.

 

When my Pacer finally arrived, I though it was a very nice train, in fact, close your eyes, and it could almost have been a Pullman.

So they were designed especially for tough Northerners, of the sort who when they were a lad lived in a cardboard box in a puddle in the middle of the road, got up half an hour before they went to bed, were beaten to death by their mothers, then did a 26 hour day down t'pit, before eating the cold porridge they threw up the previous night. Anyone who has a bad word to say for them is presumably a soft Southerner.