TPE - Class 68s - Updates

[Zomboid]

68s generally have quite interesting styling on their bodies, but something about the bogies just looks odd. Like they're set too far back or something.

Nothing to do with the TPE colour scheme, it's the same with the DRS and Chiltern scheme. (Are any painted/vinyled for Scotrail?)

[newbryford]

Is the new TPE livery the same at both ends. I’ve only ever seen a pic showing one end of the loco

 

Yes - this is the other end of 68021

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Joseph_Pestell]

68021 Tireless in the new livery - no yellow ends!

Naming a loco "Tireless" seems like an invitation for unfavourable publicity when it breaks down.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Naming a loco "Tireless" seems like an invitation for unfavourable publicity when it breaks down.

 

 

...or if the wheels fall off.

 

 

.

[newbryford]

Yes - this is the other end of 68021

68021b.jpg

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

And the bit in the middle with the TPE branding.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Mad McCann]

Non of the cars I have driven in the last 3 or 4 years react internally if just daytime running lights are in use. The dash only lights up and shows lights in use when side lights or main lights are turned on

Surely then, given the automotive industry's trend of making virtually every other aspect of vehicle equipment almost autonomous, this seems like a bit of design failure? I've never owned a vehicle with this kind of set up so I generally just ran with normal head and tail lights on.

I can see where the problem lies there, given that a disproportionate number of car drivers do appear to be actual imbeciles.

 

Anyway, point taken with the yellow. Given many peoples' ability to miss the glaring obvious, I suppose the more visual aid the better.

 

D.

[Gwiwer]

Whether the front is yellow or sky-blue pink with purple polka dots (please don’t suggest that to Ray Stenning ) the need for more capacity on TPE is critical.

 

Last week I tried to reach Leeds from Huddersfield. That’s on the core route with several trains an hour. The first two arrived already loaded beyond reason leaving the three-deep crowd on the platform no chance of boarding and with the resultant blocking of doorways by hopefuls there was significant delay to the service as well. In one case station staff were summoned to persuade three passengers, claiming to have reservations on that train, to step back to the platform as they were nowhere near being clear of the doors.

 

These were the normal 3-car class 185 sets. Later, having forced my way aboard Japanese style, I watched six-car trains departing Leeds one after the other and every one crush loaded to the max.

 

In other recent travels I have also noted full-and-standing loads on the 4-car class 350 sets used between Manchester and Glasgow

 

TPE has booming business. There are slower alternatives for many journeys but the public are voting with their feet. Why spend 30 minutes aboard a cold, bumpy 142 stopping all stations when you can spend 20 on a 185 and get there non-stop?

[4630]

Whether the front is yellow or sky-blue pink with purple polka dots (please don’t suggest that to Ray Stenning ) the need for more capacity on TPE is critical.

 

Last week I tried to reach Leeds from Huddersfield. That’s on the core route with several trains an hour. The first two arrived already loaded beyond reason leaving the three-deep crowd on the platform no chance of boarding and with the resultant blocking of doorways by hopefuls there was significant delay to the service as well. In one case station staff were summoned to persuade three passengers, claiming to have reservations on that train, to step back to the platform as they were nowhere near being clear of the doors.

 

These were the normal 3-car class 185 sets. Later, having forced my way aboard Japanese style, I watched six-car trains departing Leeds one after the other and every one crush loaded to the max.

 

In other recent travels I have also noted full-and-standing loads on the 4-car class 350 sets used between Manchester and Glasgow

 

TPE has booming business. There are slower alternatives for many journeys but the public are voting with their feet. Why spend 30 minutes aboard a cold, bumpy 142 stopping all stations when you can spend 20 on a 185 and get there non-stop?

 

 

And this has been the case for quite a few years now on the core TPE route between Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds.

 

Whilst TPE do run several 2x185s on some peak hour services, the vast majority are a single 3 car 185.  Such are the numbers travelling now along this TPE route and not just in peak hours, even if the 185s had been extended to 4 car as was proposed a few years ago (whilst DaFT prevaricated and eventually declined the proposal), 4 or 8 car trains in the peaks would struggle to cope with passenger numbers in my regular experience.

 

I'm looking forward to the 68s arriving (they should be employed on the Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough services I believe) but I do wonder how the use of the proposed rolling stock (Mk3s initially until TPEs order of Mk5 is delivered and commissioned) will impact on station dwell times.  

[Gwiwer]

It is worth bearing in mind that of a 3-car 185 around half of one car is first class (though used as standing room for all on most trains I saw) and the equivalent of the other half of the car is occupied by two cabs and a disabled toilet. Therefore these units are effectively 2-car trains to all intents and purposes for standard class. No wonder they overload. Six-car trains would be barely adequate but if DafT were willing to do so it should be possible to place an order for matching four or five car units to lengthen the trains. The Desiro is a fairly standard design after all.

 

Despite being barely able to move crushed in like a London underground commuter I found the 185s really rather good. Quick, quiet and powerful (which is needed across the Pennines) and with almost no intrusive diesel nouse or vibration and therefore quite unlike the 180/220/221/222 types. And no doubt the new Hitachi things.

[locoholic]

Are the loco-hauled TPE trains going run from Liverpool to Newcastle?

[caradoc]

68s generally have quite interesting styling on their bodies, but something about the bogies just looks odd. Like they're set too far back or something.

Nothing to do with the TPE colour scheme, it's the same with the DRS and Chiltern scheme. (Are any painted/vinyled for Scotrail?)

 

Yes, 68006 and 007 are in Scotrail livery (for the Fife commuter services, which BTW are well worth a run on a summer's evening over the Forth Bridge !)

[Reorte]

On the subject of TPE 185s what's happened to the ones I assume have been freed up by most TPE Manchester to Scotland services now being electric? Are they being used on other TPE routes and are still rammed?

[amwells]

I wonder why the 68s have no yellow ends, yet the 185s, in the very same livery otherwise, do?

[newbryford]

 I do wonder how the use of the proposed rolling stock (Mk3s initially until TPEs order of Mk5 is delivered and commissioned) will impact on station dwell times.  

 

There is talk of extra staff being deployed to help with door closing, as quite a lot of travellers are so used to power operated doors. This is intended as a short term measure as the Mk3 sets are only going to be in service with TPW for a limited period.

(Quite amusing to watch a XC HST pull up at Derby and everyone stood around waiting for the doors to magically open)

 

On the subject of TPE 185s what's happened to the ones I assume have been freed up by most TPE Manchester to Scotland services now being electric? Are they being used on other TPE routes and are still rammed?

 

I think some have covered for the shortfall when TPE "lost" nine 170/3s to Chiltern - sometime in 2015 IIRC. They are now 168/3s.

Although some Northern 158s were also covering for the loss of 170/3s.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited November 20, 2017 by newbryford

[Gwiwer]

I wonder why the 68s have no yellow ends, yet the 185s, in the very same livery otherwise, do?

The manadtory use of yellow was only changed very recently and the 68s are among the first types built which fully comply with lighting requirements associated with “no yellow”. The 185s do not qualify being already about 10 years old and built under the regulations which existed at that time.

 

Of passing interest perhaps is that in Australia where Victorian regional operator V/line has a fleet of around 70 “V/locity” 100mph dmus their original livery of green, lilac and white included no yellow because it was considered the headlights would be sufficient. Later builds carried a revised livery which includes yellow on the ends as many complaints were received that the train could not be seen approaching. One fatal collision between an almost-new unit and a road vehicle resulted in tests being carried out which suggested that the headlights could not be seen and - crucially - interpreted as an approaching train in low light or strong daylight conditions. Yellow was suggested and quickly appeared.

[4630]

68022 powers through Crewe with 5Z08, 09.22 Crewe CS (LNWR Site) to Preston on 14th November 2017, the second day of the TPE driver training runs.

 

 

[SHMD]

It is worth bearing in mind that of a 3-car 185 around half of one car is first class (though used as standing room for all on most trains I saw) and the equivalent of the other half of the car is occupied by two cabs and a disabled toilet. Therefore these units are effectively 2-car trains to all intents and purposes for standard class. No wonder they overload. Six-car trains would be barely adequate but if DafT were willing to do so it should be possible to place an order for matching four or five car units to lengthen the trains. The Desiro is a fairly standard design after all.

 

Despite being barely able to move crushed in like a London underground commuter I found the 185s really rather good. Quick, quiet and powerful (which is needed across the Pennines) and with almost no intrusive diesel nouse or vibration and therefore quite unlike the 180/220/221/222 types. And no doubt the new Hitachi things.

 

Hi Gwiwer,

 

 "Therefore these units are effectively 2-car trains to all intents and purposes for standard class." - a popular mis-belief but I beg to disagree.

 

These are NOT effectively "2-car units" due to all the extra standing areas in all 3 cars.

 

The first class section is only between par of the double doors on coach A - ie about one third of the coach. This also includes the two disabled places (plus two seats) and a large volume for peak hour crush. The cab end has the drivers cab (according to the plan the driver takes up 8 seats ?) and the disabled/accessible toilet plus large area for standin people, baggage, cycles, extra trollies (positioning moves) rubbish storage, etc. This space generally takes a lot of the "crush" during rush hour. I know, I use it regularly.

 

 

The first class seating area comprises of 15 seats. The SAME area in, the second class coaches, gives 24 seat but with less luggage space and less standing space. Removing first class will NOT alleviate the over crowding because the problems on the TransPennine route are bigger than 24-15=9 seats per one 3-car unit

 

 

Kev.

 

 

The second class section takes the double doors to the coach connection to coach B.

[cal.n]

Any images of the mk5 DVT/DBO yet?

 

When the 68s run with mk3 coaches, will they use top and tail locos or a mk3 DVT? As both Glasgow Central and Manchester Airport don't provide loops. There is one mk3 DVT with the pretendolino set but I can't think of any others spare.

 

West Coast Mainline travellers may struggle with manual doors. I once saw someone try to open the door of a cumbrian coast DRS mk2 by pressing the rubber stopper next to the door. I think I embarrassed her more than helped her when I just opened it.

[newbryford]

Any images of the mk5 DVT/DBO yet?

 

When the 68s run with mk3 coaches, will they use top and tail locos or a mk3 DVT? As both Glasgow Central and Manchester Airport don't provide loops. There is one mk3 DVT with the pretendolino set but I can't think of any others spare.

 

 

Although it may seem uneconomic to use top and tail 68s, this is offset by the cost of  extra training required for the Mk3 DVTs given the relatively short term use of the Mk3s before the Mk5s come into play. There would be no gain in seating using a DVT vice 68. 

It is said that the driving controls on the Mk5 will resemble a 68 desk.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Wild Boar Fell]

 

 

Although it may seem uneconomic to use top and tail 68s, this is offset by the cost of  extra training required for the Mk3 DVTs given the relatively short term use of the Mk3s before the Mk5s come into play. There would be no gain in seating using a DVT vice 68. 

It is said that the driving controls on the Mk5 will resemble a 68 desk.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Also looking at the photo of the 68's used on the training above, I don't believe they have received the AAR mod as per the Chiltern 68's, also I'm guessing the Mk3s from the Pretendolino set don't have the AAR mod either.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Wild Boar Fell

[newbryford]

Also looking at the photo of the 68's used on the training above, I don't believe they have received the AAR mod as per the Chiltern 68's, also I'm guessing the Mk3s from the Pretendolino set don't have the AAR mod either.

 

Agreed about the AAR.

I think the intention is to use the existing 68 multi system with the MK5s- the small orange/red jumpers just below the window. There is a name for it that escapes me at the moment.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Wild Boar Fell]

Ah the UIC 558? WTB?

[Danim]

A little photo edit I have done, I personally prefer it without the yellow

[Iron Horse]

When do these services start gents?

[4630]

When do these services start gents?

 

 

The original intention was from the December 2017 timetable change, but given that driver training has only recently started and the Mk3 rolling stock not yet ready I think it's safe to say it won't be then.  

 

That said, the platform-end rumour mill is expecting them to be introduced into service before the May 2018 timetable change.   TPE has committed to an internal refurbishment of their 185s (which has already commenced) and substituting TnT 68s allows a quicker throughput of 185s into the refurbishment process.