OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[letterspider]

I have to,wonder how many people who keep mentioning risk and failure have actually signed up to buy one

 

 

Andy I do think it is reckless for contributors on here to goad others who are being risk averse and by any normal measures 'sensible'

Let the debate continue but if you don't have anything constructive to say, leave the thread alone for those who do.

[jjb1970]

I have to,wonder how many people who keep mentioning risk and failure have actually signed up to buy one

 

I'll happily tell you that I haven't and won't. Not because I don't want an APT (I would love one) or doubt that the model will be good (I think it will be a good model) but because I am not a fan of crowdfunding. I'm also not a fan of the practice of expecting payment up front for pre-orders. This is nothing to do with this project and it's nothing to do with personalities or what I think of companies. There is a thread in the modelling musings and miscellany section of the board discussing this for those who want to voice their opinions.

 

To return to this thread, if people want to spend their money on this then fine, that it not my business and it's not for me to offer opinions on a project I'm not involved with in respect of how much it'll cost, whether it will be a good model etc etc. However there is also a comment in another post that people know what they're getting into. I don't want Dave Jones to take this the wrong way, and it is not intended as a negative comment about this project but any time I read comments like that with respect to any sort of investment offer I just see potential for all sorts of unpleasantness such as misselling allegations. Suggesting robust T&C's is not negative, it is pointin out what should be obvious.

[phil gollin]

.

 

I think that "RMWeb" should be renamed "Miserable Old Git Forum" (shortened to "MOGgies" ) -  it describes a seemingly increasing tendency (unfortunately).

 

.

[Colin_McLeod]

I have to,wonder how many people who keep mentioning risk and failure have actually signed up to buy one

I have.

 

 

What I don't understand is why customers would want to underline the risk they may have taken. Surely that would be the supplier's role.

 

I have signed up and made my first 25% payment in good faith because I like the product that is being offered and want to acquire one. I trust Dave to be able to fulfill that want.

 

Regarding mentioning risk, I simply joined in an interesting discussion that was first mentioned by someone else.

 

I never mentioned failure. Failure is not an option.

 

Next item on the agenda seems to be the scanning party. I would love to be there but Crewe is a long way from my home so it's unlikely that I will make it but I'm sure it will be a success.

 

Colin

Edited May 6, 2018 by Colin_McLeod

[delticfan]

If this project goes pear shaped i’ll lose my cash, won’t be too happy but that’s my risk, maybe I’ll get something back through whatever means but I’m not expecting to and I’m really ok with that, the risk for this model for me is worth it. Dave and DtoS will stand to lose more through, reputation etc. do you really think he wants that to happen I doubt it. Looking forward to meeting the chaps at the scanning party and giving some words of encouragement rather than getting beat up on here by armchair modellers and nay sayers!

[royaloak]

If this project goes pear shaped i’ll I may lose my cash, won’t be too happy but that’s my risk, maybe I’ll get something back through whatever means but I’m not expecting to and I’m really ok with that, the risk for this model for me is worth it. Dave and DtoS will stand to lose more through, reputation etc. do you really think he wants that to happen I doubt it. Looking forward to meeting the chaps at the scanning party and giving some words of encouragement rather than getting beat up on here by armchair modellers and nay sayers!

Slight correction there for you, on previous experience on projects that have been cancelled none of the crowd funders have lost money, okay there is the (small) risk of losing money but up to know the retailers who have fronted the projects have taken the hit, a small but extremely important fact.

[PaulCheffus]

Can not the N-Gauge guys place orders to double cement the guaranteed outcome, and lets get the numbers up together.

 

Hi

 

Why should they? As far as I understand it although the two will be developed together the two sets of funding are completely separate.

 

I have signed up for an N gauge one but to be quite honest from the other N gauge items that have been promised I doubt very much that I will bother when it comes to payment as apart from the mermaid nothing else has been delivered. As I understand it the class 17 which again I was interested in has now become a crowdfunded model to enable it to continue.

 

None of this inspires my confidence in DJM.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Andy Mac]

Slight correction there for you, on previous experience on projects that have been cancelled none of the crowd funders have lost money, okay there is the (small) risk of losing money but up to know the retailers who have fronted the projects have taken the hit, a small but extremely important fact.

My understanding is that there are no retailers supporting this project.... DToS was initially only facilitating the orders/project going forward and promotion. DJM has clarified it’s now basically him, and it’s a pure crowd funded model....

Therefore there is an element of risk, I’m personally comfortable with that, I think that it’s more likely i’ll End up with a fantastic 14 car model wondering where I can get a 5m long display case to show it off in when it’s not running!!!!

 

I suppose you can say don’t gamble money you can’t afford to loose.....

[royaloak]

My understanding is that there are no retailers supporting this project.... DToS was initially only facilitating the orders/project going forward and promotion. DJM has clarified it’s now basically him, and it’s a pure crowd funded model....

Therefore there is an element of risk, I’m personally comfortable with that, I think that it’s more likely i’ll End up with a fantastic 14 car model wondering where I can get a 5m long display case to show it off in when it’s not running!!!!

 

I suppose you can say don’t gamble money you can’t afford to loose.....

I class Dave Jones as the 'retailer' and chose my words to make it easier to understand the point I was making which was no customer has lost money, yet!

 

Just for reference I have also ordered a 14 coach set and paid the first instalment, just the small matter of building something for it to run on now.

[delticfan]

My understanding is that there are no retailers supporting this project.... DToS was initially only facilitating the orders/project going forward and promotion. DJM has clarified it’s now basically him, and it’s a pure crowd funded model....

Therefore there is an element of risk, I’m personally comfortable with that, I think that it’s more likely i’ll End up with a fantastic 14 car model wondering where I can get a 5m long display case to show it off in when it’s not running!!!!

I suppose you can say don’t gamble money you can’t afford to loose.....

At least in Australia you are a bigger country and more chance of displaying the 14 car set. Lol!

[LongRail]

Andy I do think it is reckless for contributors on here to goad others who are being risk averse and by any normal measures 'sensible'

Let the debate continue but if you don't have anything constructive to say, leave the thread alone for those who do.

So people can raise issues which could have the potential to bring the project to its knees but if I ask what I consider is a sensible question then that is not allowed I have paid my money into this project and will continue to post on this forum

[jjb1970]

For the benefit of people umm'ing and aah'ing, there is some assurance in that it appears that reward crowdfunding schemes are still subject to UK consumer protection laws and regulations if they are subject to UK law. Therefore buyers still have rights to cancel and have money refunded, return the goods if not satisfied with quality, protection against one sided contracts etc. So that reduces buyer risk hugely (although it doesn't eliminate it). There, see, I've provided something positive for those thinking of buying.

[Crewlisle]

Digressing from the current topic of the legal side of the project & T&Cs, I want to get back to a couple of practical questions about the model.

 

1.    May I suggest that all models are fitted with wheels without traction tyres.  If someone is shelling out £600 plus on a model then it must be odds on they do not want traction tyres on their APT-P.  By all means include a set of wheels with traction  tyres for the relative few who still use them on their locos.

 

2.    There is much talk on this forum about 'buying & swapping' different coaches to fit in various combinations of the APT-P.  I have a Bachmann Blue Pullman with a power car at both ends.  Electrically it is split into two 3 car halves so making it more difficult for anyone wanting to change it to an eight car set.  Are the electrical connections between cars similar to the Blue Pullman & with the APT power cars in the middle, will it be more difficult from an electrical point of view to buy additional cars & just swap them around? 

 

Peter

Edited May 7, 2018 by Crewlisle

[7APT7]

Hi Peter aka 'Crewlisle'

 

I asked the same question about the coaches and can I swop 'n' change the order or even make it smaller if I wanted to, as I know the Blue Pullman you couldn't do this. So I questioned it with DJM Dave, and I've hopefully attached his reply as I have never used 'Multi Reply' before. Refer back to Thread #320 on pg13 by DJM Dave if this does not attach.

 

I never came into this thread until page 13, that's when I first came across it and was so excited that this was a huge MUST HAVE for me personally, so I had lots of questions to ask along the way with a dream list I hope was included on the APT-P however gimmicky it was, but since realised it would be to expensive to achieve along with other RMWeber's knowledge base understood why some of the dream list wouldn't happen, which would just raise the costs even more, so a huge no, no... on some things, along with others people on here have either asked the same questions I had and therefore have been answered which is why I like the this thread.

 

 

2.    There is much talk on this forum about 'buying & swapping' different coaches to fit in various combinations of the APT-P.  I have a Bachmann Blue Pullman with a power car at both ends.  Electrically it is split into two 3 car halves so making it more difficult for anyone wanting to change it to an eight car set.  Are the electrical connections between cars similar to the Blue Pullman & with the APT power cars in the middle, will it be more difficult from an electrical point of view to buy additional cars & just swap them around? 

 

Peter

 

Reply from DJM Dave
Hi Jamie,

Good question, and yes, if you buy a 14 car set you can shorten it as you see fit, to run a test train configuration or anything currently offered by the crowdfunding, (except change of black window surrounds), by merely leaving a coach or 6 out.

However, please remember that certain coaches must be in the set due to the articulation joining them to adjacent coaches.
So yes you can in short, run a shortened set from a long one.

As for order they come in, this is sorted by the need for a trailer brake car , motor car, and a driving trailer car, so really anything else you want to add to make it longer than a 5 car, you can up to the 14 cars.
All half sets are numbered in a certain way so you can easily see which set coach belongs with each half set for re-assembly at any time.

 

 

Hope that helps answer or clarify the coach question, thanks to DJM Dave.

 

Regards

Jamie

Edited May 7, 2018 by 7APT7

[Colin_McLeod]

Digressing from the current topic of the legal side of the project & T&Cs, I want to get back to a couple of practical questions about the model.

1.    May I suggest that all models are fitted with wheels without traction tyres.  If someone is shelling out £600 plus on a model then it must be odds on they do not want traction tyres on their APT-P.  By all means include a set of wheels with traction  tyres for the relative few who still use them on their locos.

 

 

 

Dave I agree with Crewlisle and would urge you to seriously consider his suggestion.

 

I accept that you wish to use traction tyres but if you are giving buyers the choice, then PLEASE PLEASE  make the factory fitted wheels metal.  Like Crewlisle I suspect the majority of purchasers of the APT-P would want metal wheels. Let the (suspected) minority who want/need traction tyres do the changing.

 

Regarding planned performance levels what is your opinion on the likely running qualities of a 14 car set with two power cars with metal wheels on a 1in 100 grade? 

[Roy L S]

Dave I agree with Crewlisle and would urge you to seriously consider his suggestion.

 

I accept that you wish to use traction tyres but if you are giving buyers the choice, then PLEASE PLEASE  make the factory fitted wheels metal.  Like Crewlisle I suspect the majority of purchasers of the APT-P would want metal wheels. Let the (suspected) minority who want/need traction tyres do the changing.

 

Regarding planned performance levels what is your opinion on the likely running qualities of a 14 car set with two power cars with metal wheels on a 1in 100 grade? 

 

What on earth is this stigma concerning traction tyres all about? Some of the best manufacturers in the world use them as standard fittings and they are both very effective and long lasting if treated with due care and respect. Why leave them off for buyers to fit, what is the benefit of doing it that way round? If there is a risk of insufficient tractive weigh especially for those who have only one powered "power" car in a longer train formation Isn't it best to factory fit them so that the train can definitely cope with all sensible layout scenarios out of the box?

 

Then those who decide against them, maybe because they do not have sharp curves or significant gradients can  swap them out if they choose for non-tyred ones.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[GordonC]

Yes, I agree and don't understand the problem with traction tyres. I'd think it better to go with what performs best out the box and provide non traction tyres wheelsets to swap to too.

[7APT7]

Hi All

 

It’s nice to see we are coming away from the T&C’s problems, which has been made clear over many threads by DJM Dave since

 

Constructive and positive thoughts here so before I start I guess this is one for DJM Dave to know whether it's possible or not and may already have been explored in this area... as DJM Dave will know costs already based on how the APT-P currently is on paper, as we currently know it to be, so to speak with its current pricing structure.

 

Just putting it out as a question of possibility or should I be put against a wall and shot hold it... hear me out first before you all aim to shoot me down. 

 

I know all about it being Prototypical [blah blah blah] and the APT-P being powering from the Centre Power Car or Cars etc... like the real thing and also like the Hornby versions are, but did Hornby get it right to start with I ask myself, for example the Hornby Pendolino is powered from the First Cab car and not from the coaches with Pantographs like the real thing etc., I know the tinted windows on the Pendolino block a lot if not all of the motor out etc., and that's where I may be failing here (Man... I feel myself slipping away already ha-ha) 

 

Can not the APT-P be powered from the front Cab cars at either end like the Hornby Pendolino is (Powered from one end Only the on Pendolino, I know) or maybe inside the APT-P Buffet Cars which will help conceal the motor or better still inside the TBF Trailer Brake First may be a good idea as the motors can be hidden at the one end of the coach straight off (what would be ALL None Powered Centre Cars [it's main power source of the real APT-P])  Is that a possibility, whether it is possible to achieve and still keep the costs down low  is key, but it gives less coaches to be Pushed / Pulled at each end and in between (what would become) two none motored Centre coaches (Power cars with pantographs only) and therefore spacing out the power source so it’s less on the Push and more on the Pull or vice versa.

 

Example on 14-Car would only be (Pushing first 5 coaches / 1st Powered TBF / Two Dummy centre power cars with Pantographs / 2nd Powered TBF / Pulling the last 5 coaches)

 

Example on 10-Car would only be (Pushing 3 / Powered TBF / Pulling 6 [including the Two Dummy none powered centre cars with pantographs]) 

 

Are we saving much by doing it this way both in re-design and costs? Only DJM Dave may be able to answer this one!

 

I'm basically saying are there other options open to be explored or avenues that can be taken on board to make it a brand new re-design for the better running of and making the model better motored to be Pushed / Pulled and where ON the APT-P will be it’s best main power source coach or coaches and with the power being further apart rather than next to each other, would not that make the inclines or just the general running of be much better with less strain long term on the Main Powered car wherever that may be on the Rake of the APT-P.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?   :dontknow:

 

OK Aim.... and FIRE   Just a thought... now let’s delete that thought ha-ha, quickly.

 

Regards

Jamie

Edited May 7, 2018 by 7APT7

[letterspider]

What on earth is this stigma concerning traction tyres all about? Some of the best manufacturers in the world use them as standard fittings and they are both very effective and long lasting if treated with due care and respect. Why leave them off for buyers to fit, what is the benefit of doing it that way round? If there is a risk of insufficient tractive weigh especially for those who have only one powered "power" car in a longer train formation Isn't it best to factory fit them so that the train can definitely cope with all sensible layout scenarios out of the box?

 

Then those who decide against them, maybe because they do not have sharp curves or significant gradients can  swap them out if they choose for non-tyred ones.

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

From my own experience...

They make one wheel higher than the other, so the whole model leans over

They wear down and leave a layer of material on the top of the track - which lowers performance.

They fall off eventually

It is often a nghtmare to get replacements

They don't appear to be necessary for the majority of modern models

[tetsudofan]

From my own experience...

They make one wheel higher than the other, so the whole model leans over

They wear down and leave a layer of material on the top of the track - which lowers performance.

They fall off eventually

It is often a nghtmare to get replacements

They don't appear to be necessary for the majority of modern models

 

Sorry, but you are talking a load of twaddle.

 

You obviously have not seen or bought any current models by the likes of Roco, Trix and Fleischman. Look at the current catalogues and you'll find that the exception is those models that do NOT have traction tyres.

 

Keith

[Colin_McLeod]

My gripe with traction tyres is the mess they leave on the track. One loco can easily haul six coaches without tyres so that is the 14 car set sorted.

 

If one loco cannot handle 9 coaches then put two in the 10 car set.

[letterspider]

Sorry, but you are talking a load of twaddle.

 

You obviously have not seen or bought any current models by the likes of Roco, Trix and Fleischman. Look at the current catalogues and you'll find that the exception is those models that do NOT have traction tyres.

 

Keith

 

No comment -

[Aldwych]

Hi,

 

The best idea is the most original idea: the powercar gets a powerful engine which is equipped in the middle with two massive flywheels at each end. The cardan shafts drive the bogies.

The advantage in the powercar is its windowlessness, the chassis can be constructed virtually under the roof so there is still room for speakers and decoders. There is space for the tilting technology in the front and rear and of course the clutch (NEM standard would be useful!)

 

How will it be with the full train of 14 cars: both motor cars have engines. But it would be useful if both were electrically connected (master & slave) so that you only need a decoder because the motors would run synchronously which reduces the wear of the transmission.

 

On the subject of traction tires: it would certainly not wrong if it would be possible to assemble them (which is included in the spare part sachet.) However, there are quality variations, the best traction tires produces Märklin.

 

Greetings

 

Dennis

[Guest JoeHart2]

Do we need additional crowdfunding for suitable traction tyres? 

 

No doubt someone will be along shortly to explain the financial risks of such a venture...

[JSpencer]

In DCC mode, it can sometimes be a challenge to get two power cars in consist to run smoothly togethor. On some days my pair of 20s are perfectly behaved while on others they fight each other a little (probably due to dust on the rails).

 

I wonder how two power cars with traction tires will behave running in consist togethor? Only tried this?