Bachmann 2018 range

[Steamport Southport]

Okay, lets take a more reasoned look at the situation and explain - fairly - some of the trends in the market. 

 

First, people again are confusing the North Eastern Railway, with what became the North East Region. People from a pro-Southern lobby are trying to suggest that the NER vanishes under the LNER when actually, it was very much an operation continuing as before within its previous regional area. Thus, engines like Gresley pacifics passed through, and are known for working in the area. Its like saying a Merchant Navy isn't a Southern engine as it wasn't a pre-grouping design too and actually Ravens A2 was pretty much equal to Gresley's A1 the reason why the latter was chosen might be more due to lessons from Swindon, another bastion of evolution, standardization and excellence - just like the NER. 

 

So, North East engines have finally been produced. Lets just check where and when. The K1 and Q6 have both been done by Hornby. As usual Hornby follow up a full release in one year by several more the year afterwards. That means that a lot come in quick succession. However, both these engines arrived when the standard freight engine breached the £100 mark. Had they been made at the same time as Bachmann's Super-D or the WD, or Hornbys O1, then things would have been different. They retailed at a price of around £75 just a few years ago, which is an increase of about 1/4 to 1/3 of the price of a model of a similar duty model for a different region. That causes issues with the price rise. Id also factor in that wages through-out these years has seen a real terms cut, so in many ways Southern fans got lucky when so many models have been produced for them before all these factors then hit afterwards. Still, from where I see it sales of Q6 and K1 are steady and the models moving off the shelves. 

 

Thus, Steamports own reasoning the evidence is there that the Southern doesn't sell! How many S15s, Black Motors, Schools class are all listed as Bargains - all sat on shelves. Hate to say it but in areas those Black Wainwright C's dont seem to shift either. Listening to some, they would be selling by the thousand and would be the most sucessful ever. Ah well. I guess that we shouldn't go making any more Western region tanks - given that they are in the same bins. Those King class means express is out for the Western too. Kiss goodbye too to more Midland region tanks and small southern engines like the E4 from Bachmann. Its all good news if you model Steam in Scotland! Your the only region not touched so there should be a massive launch of a range coming your way! Sadly though, such reasoning is badly flawed. (By the way I did you a favour of not including the Radial as that's been duplicated so wouldnt be fair to mention).

 

Companies go on where the range compliments existing models and where demand and information seems to express a need for models to be made. The areas that are strong in polling still resonate around the Southern area, Western, the Great Eastern and the North Eastern. Midland areas recently has seen its figures plummet, but Bachmann insist that such a range can be made so I expect them to model more. The Western are served by steady releases. Hornby moved in to Great Eastern and a range followed, but the easy options have been done for this. Looking at figures that Q6 was wanted, Hornby ventured north. The figures are interesting, on average over the past few years North Eastern or Great Eastern area engines out number the Great Central or Great Northern by about 2 to 1. Its a consistent trend that I have noticed. That left the Eastern region being satisfied, and a market there for the unserved North. We all know various engines are being made it left North Eastern ones looking positive for a change. I still think such sales have been good given the first release was followed up by more soon afterwards.  

 

Even if sales of the Q6 matched the second most popular Southern region model made that year on new release, the answer would not be to stop making more Q6s and make more southern engines. Companies need to balance their range, and as such you get Southern engines made and an engine like a Q6 put out on a bi-annual cycle shared with somewhere else that augments the range, and offers choice to other areas. Otherwise you ignore pent up demand and over supply one area. That is now a problem the Southern fans are yet to realise. Now, the problem will be you have too much and cant buy it all. Prices are rising, and even stock like Bachmanns birdcage stock runs the risk of being so expensive sales might just be a little slower than expected (I still expect these to fly off the shelves really but it is a risk). Now, served well by both Bachmann and Hornby, other retailers, shops and magazines have joined in. Now you can get a Dock Tank, P-class, and more from the various other smaller outfits in the market. However, that isnt the telling reason of why Southern dominates - its actually EMUs. These slam door stock are of no use to anyone else pretty much. Whereas a class 25 can operate from penzance to scotland, Southern 3rd rail is even more limited in geographical coverage than a Q6. That means transition most diesels can actually appeal to Western, Midland and Eastern regions and thats before you add the period modelling for later eras. Southern meanwhile has a load of specific slam door EMUs or 3rd rail ED's electrics that are of no use to any other area. Its pretty much a case of one for Southern area, one for everyone else. When you add these into consideration the number of Southern specific models to model the transition period in particular looks massive, but thats the point. The companies are giving you the range and now magazines and shop comissions offer the novelty ones too. Buying all of these is bound to be massively expensive, but if you start picking and choosing, you fall foul of the same thinking that your using to bash the Eastern region - by being too specific on area and your focus is accused of being too narrow. 

 

Thats why in years to come Southern stuff could actually diminish as there's just so much available to buy at the moment and while you might want more, your requests are getting ever more regional specific and thus might not be as popular as something like a B16. 

 

The sad part is that even with a fair minded and even judgement as I have tried to convey, the Southern lot will still bash this attempt to level the playing field. I have no doubt that plenty of usual suspects (I could actually list them) will try to unpick this, and insist that yet more stuff is needed at the expense of every other region. There are many trends and issues at the heart of how the market is behaving and what effects products moving off the shelves. The problem with them, is that they assume they are the most popular and therefore the most important and that little or nothing can stop them. Sorry guys. Your wrong again. 

 

Since when have I been a pro Southern Railway lobbyist? I've bought some because I like them, but it certainly isn't my main area of interest.

 

Think proper engines with Walschaerts valve gear (some Caprotti and one from that Stephenson bloke) and taper boilers. Mostly black with some crimson. and a handful of blue ones.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

Wrong again. Bachmann are making a proper E1. 

 

Do try and keep up....

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j72.php 

 

Oh those things that Darlington were building when proper railway works were building modern locomotives and diesels.

 

I'm sure if they asked nicely then they could have had something designed in the 20th century.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Black Hat]

Oh those things that Darlington were building when proper railway works were building modern locomotives and diesels.

 

I'm sure if they asked nicely then they could have had something designed in the 20th century.

 

Jason

 

Don't need to ask nicely. Darlington did both. 

 

If a design is fine then you can keep making it. I'm sure the Western contingent can vouch for that idea too. 

[Dunsignalling]

Okay, lets take a more reasoned look at the situation and explain - fairly - some of the trends in the market. 

 

First, people again are confusing the North Eastern Railway, with what became the North East Region. People from a pro-Southern lobby are trying to suggest that the NER vanishes under the LNER when actually, it was very much an operation continuing as before within its previous regional area. Thus, engines like Gresley pacifics passed through, and are known for working in the area. Its like saying a Merchant Navy isn't a Southern engine as it wasn't a pre-grouping design too and actually Ravens A2 was pretty much equal to Gresley's A1 the reason why the latter was chosen might be more due to lessons from Swindon, another bastion of evolution, standardization and excellence - just like the NER. 

 

So, North East engines have finally been produced. Lets just check where and when. The K1 and Q6 have both been done by Hornby. As usual Hornby follow up a full release in one year by several more the year afterwards. That means that a lot come in quick succession. However, both these engines arrived when the standard freight engine breached the £100 mark. Had they been made at the same time as Bachmann's Super-D or the WD, or Hornbys O1, then things would have been different. They retailed at a price of around £75 just a few years ago, which is an increase of about 1/4 to 1/3 of the price of a model of a similar duty model for a different region. That causes issues with the price rise. Id also factor in that wages through-out these years has seen a real terms cut, so in many ways Southern fans got lucky when so many models have been produced for them before all these factors then hit afterwards. Still, from where I see it sales of Q6 and K1 are steady and the models moving off the shelves. 

 

Thus, Steamports own reasoning the evidence is there that the Southern doesn't sell! How many S15s, Black Motors, Schools class are all listed as Bargains - all sat on shelves. Hate to say it but in areas those Black Wainwright C's dont seem to shift either. Listening to some, they would be selling by the thousand and would be the most sucessful ever. Ah well. I guess that we shouldn't go making any more Western region tanks - given that they are in the same bins. Those King class means express is out for the Western too. Kiss goodbye too to more Midland region tanks and small southern engines like the E4 from Bachmann. Its all good news if you model Steam in Scotland! Your the only region not touched so there should be a massive launch of a range coming your way! Sadly though, such reasoning is badly flawed. (By the way I did you a favour of not including the Radial as that's been duplicated so wouldnt be fair to mention).

 

Companies go on where the range compliments existing models and where demand and information seems to express a need for models to be made. The areas that are strong in polling still resonate around the Southern area, Western, the Great Eastern and the North Eastern. Midland areas recently has seen its figures plummet, but Bachmann insist that such a range can be made so I expect them to model more. The Western are served by steady releases. Hornby moved in to Great Eastern and a range followed, but the easy options have been done for this. Looking at figures that Q6 was wanted, Hornby ventured north. The figures are interesting, on average over the past few years North Eastern or Great Eastern area engines out number the Great Central or Great Northern by about 2 to 1. Its a consistent trend that I have noticed. That left the Eastern region being satisfied, and a market there for the unserved North. We all know various engines are being made it left North Eastern ones looking positive for a change. I still think such sales have been good given the first release was followed up by more soon afterwards.  

 

Even if sales of the Q6 matched the second most popular Southern region model made that year on new release, the answer would not be to stop making more Q6s and make more southern engines. Companies need to balance their range, and as such you get Southern engines made and an engine like a Q6 put out on a bi-annual cycle shared with somewhere else that augments the range, and offers choice to other areas. Otherwise you ignore pent up demand and over supply one area. That is now a problem the Southern fans are yet to realise. Now, the problem will be you have too much and cant buy it all. Prices are rising, and even stock like Bachmanns birdcage stock runs the risk of being so expensive sales might just be a little slower than expected (I still expect these to fly off the shelves really but it is a risk). Now, served well by both Bachmann and Hornby, other retailers, shops and magazines have joined in. Now you can get a Dock Tank, P-class, and more from the various other smaller outfits in the market. However, that isnt the telling reason of why Southern dominates - its actually EMUs. These slam door stock are of no use to anyone else pretty much. Whereas a class 25 can operate from penzance to scotland, Southern 3rd rail is even more limited in geographical coverage than a Q6. That means transition most diesels can actually appeal to Western, Midland and Eastern regions and thats before you add the period modelling for later eras. Southern meanwhile has a load of specific slam door EMUs or 3rd rail ED's electrics that are of no use to any other area. Its pretty much a case of one for Southern area, one for everyone else. When you add these into consideration the number of Southern specific models to model the transition period in particular looks massive, but thats the point. The companies are giving you the range and now magazines and shop comissions offer the novelty ones too. Buying all of these is bound to be massively expensive, but if you start picking and choosing, you fall foul of the same thinking that your using to bash the Eastern region - by being too specific on area and your focus is accused of being too narrow. 

 

Thats why in years to come Southern stuff could actually diminish as there's just so much available to buy at the moment and while you might want more, your requests are getting ever more regional specific and thus might not be as popular as something like a B16. 

 

The sad part is that even with a fair minded and even judgement as I have tried to convey, the Southern lot will still bash this attempt to level the playing field. I have no doubt that plenty of usual suspects (I could actually list them) will try to unpick this, and insist that yet more stuff is needed at the expense of every other region. There are many trends and issues at the heart of how the market is behaving and what effects products moving off the shelves. The problem with them, is that they assume they are the most popular and therefore the most important and that little or nothing can stop them. Sorry guys. Your wrong again. 

That's a bit long to be going through all of it right now, and I suspect its practical veracity will become clearer after the 8th.

 

One thing I will say, though, is that the hangover of second-wave models released too early wasn't confined to the 700 and S15, Hornby rushed out follow-up D16s and J15s, yes and K1s (a mate of mine got one for much less than I paid for my third S15) long before the first lots had been sold, too.

 

That said, I think ex-NER prototypes are ripe for commercial exploitation despite being largely ignored up to now, just as most things Southern were for many decades.  

 

I, personally will never jump up and down with excitement at the release of any [L]NE[R] locos, nor Kings, or Duchesses or even a lot of Southern stuff that never showed up on my chosen patch (like the C and E4 Classes) but, by the sheer maths of what has and hasn't been done already, your turn is bound to come.

 

The Hornby Q6 may yet prove to be the "Merchant Navy" moment for ex-NER modellers. Just don't expect a flood straight off.

 

John

Edited December 31, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

Oh dear. The Anti-Eastern region Southern cheerleaders are all out again. I have to say that by comparison the above post is blatantly hypocritical at best or hilarious in the extreme. Lets see why...

 

First of all is SEEMS that some Southern fans seem to think that every constituent company of the Southern should be numerously, indeed comprehensively covered - that would take a long time, even if the manufacturers thought it sensible. Add that by size and ability most Southern pregrouping companies were the size of the workload of one shed area in the North East region - in other words much smaller by comparison, or comparable with a smaller constituent part like the GE. 

 

Southern fans make a lot of noise but SEEMINGLY don't understand just over-the-top their demands are. The best they can do is ensure that every "Southern" loco (no matter how rubbish the design actually is) is an instant sell out. They, so far, haven't managed to persuade the manufacturer to release a DCC engine that will actually wheel slip on command as per proto-type. Model companies should be ashamed that the models will actually grip and haul without wheel slip which is not what protoypes of the region used to do. Its far from acceptable and needs to get sorted. 

 

I hope that they are given the chance to sell out of two locos when the main ranges are announced, as the problem with the Southern market now is that is over saturated with models for the region and that will divide choices for the consumer and thus see what sells. Maybe that explains all the Southern region engines all sat on shelves or in the bargain racks and that's before the new wave of models to come actually arrive. That's the way to get more, by giving the manufacturers a profit and cash flow incentive. 

Ah ha, the voice of reason and yet, complete insanity. That's how this thread should be, unlike the Red Box thread where a load of young people have just got out of bed and started political unrest and even using the words Train Station.. By gad sirs, what is the Country coming to?

A.R. Swipe

Edited December 31, 2017 by Mallard60022

[bluesparkdave]

As I model South West Scotland in the late 50s/early 60s I'm wishing for in oo gauge;

 

Ex Caledonian 0-6-0 jumbo

BR Standard Class 3 2-6-0

Ex WD 2-10-0

 

I know they are all available as kits but it would save so much time if they were available RTR. Come on, Bachmann (or any manufacturer), surprise me in 2018!

[Dick Turpin]

This has all got out of hand now hasn't it? All I said was that a steam railcar would be a good idea based on their small size and their likelihood of standing out as different among a lot of people's collections. I wasn't thinking Bachmann in particular, though I'm sure they'd make an exemplary job of one should they tackle it.

 

As for criticising the North Eastern Railway, let's not forget the sheer size of geographical area we are talking here, as well as who invented the railway in the first place. 

[Mallard60022]

As I model South West Scotland in the late 50s/early 60s I'm wishing for in oo gauge;

 

Ex Caledonian 0-6-0 jumbo

BR Standard Class 3 2-6-0

Ex WD 2-10-0

 

I know they are all available as kits but it would save so much time if they were available RTR. Come on, Bachmann (or any manufacturer), surprise me in 2018!

Std 3 is a good bet. One even waddled around the SR at the very end.

Phil

[great northern]

Nope. Nobody has ever made an E1. Neither a LBSC version, nor a SECR/SR version.

 

But I know either of them would outsell any NER model tenfold.

 

 

 

Jason

How do you know that then? Have you some wonderous powers that the rest of us lack?

[tomparryharry]

This has all got out of hand now hasn't it? All I said was that a steam railcar would be a good idea based on their small size and their likelihood of standing out as different among a lot of people's collections. I wasn't thinking Bachmann in particular, though I'm sure they'd make an exemplary job of one should they tackle it.

 

As for criticising the North Eastern Railway, let's not forget the sheer size of geographical area we are talking here, as well as who invented the railway in the first place. 

 

Your absolutely right! All the way back to Pen-Yr-Darren.

 

Ian

[Dick Turpin]

Just been looking at the map, and I can't find anywhere called Pen-Yr-Darren between Stockton and Darlington. Was it near Bishop Auckland? 

[No Decorum]

Your absolutely right! All the way back to Pen-Yr-Darren.

 

Ian

Ironbridge?

[Legend]

Hoping for that Jumbo . Aside for the need for a Scottish Engine it’s a pretty wee thing. Hoping for the red box team though, as I’d rather like it before I retire.

[Dick Turpin]

Hoping for that Jumbo... I’d rather like it before I retire.

 

Be a splendid retirement present though, wouldn't it?

[AMJ]

Mentioned above, I feel that the Sentinel steam railcar would have far greater mileage than any other. Without checking if the wheelbase is the same as a DMU the mechanism would exist already speeding up development time.

[GWR8700]

Anyone reckon they'll add another loco to their 009 range?

[Andy Hayter]

The problem with NER locomotives is that no one has yet made a rtr one yet.

 

Yes Mainline made the J72 but it was the BR version of a J72 - although backdating this was not too much of a chore.

And Hornby have done the Q6 but it is the LNER remodelled version and backdating although possible is quite a task and not for the faint hearted.

 

At least Bachmann have now shown in preparation J72 versions that represent an NER locomotive - with a livery yet to be defined - and this is a big step forward.

[Steamport Southport]

Ah ha, the voice of reason and yet, complete insanity. That's how this thread should be, unlike the Red Box thread where a load of young people have just got out of bed and started political unrest and even using the words Train Station.. By gad sirs, what is the Country coming to?

A.R. Swipe

 

Yep, It's called friendly banter.

 

The other thread is full of "doom and gloom" merchants. "The hobby is dead", "everyone's old" and "no youngsters are interested" type posts. Funnily enough I've been hearing the same things since I was a youngster in the late 1970 and early 1980s. Yes it's a hobby full of old men, it always was since younger people are too busy doing other things and often return when they are a bit older.

 

It's also the fact that some who buy Hornby don't seem to release that other manufacturers products are compatible.   

 

 

Jason

[John M Upton]

Oh dear, I just realized there is still one more week of this!!!

 

Could I ask when people quote previous posts that they pare it down to the relevant bits though. Some gave been a bit War & Peace like in length today...

[Steamport Southport]

How do you know that then? Have you some wonderous powers that the rest of us lack?

 

Just on the volume sales that seem to be coming from the big sellers.

 

Q6s were heavily discounted on release as were the K1s. You can get them for about £75 with an RRP of £150.

 

I've not seen any of the LBSC or SECR locomotives discounted that much. The E4 is £80 at Hatton's which is only £10 less than what it was when it was released (ignore the £110 that's the new RRP) which is the same price as all the other tank locomotives from Bachmann. The £80 one is actually an unpopular livery (umber). The H class is sold out virtually everywhere. The C class seem to be keeping their value at over £105, try and get a SECR liveried version, you are talking nearly £300 from some vendors.

 

So yes I think the demand for LBSC and SECR is there. I'm still unconvinced that there is the demand for North Eastern.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

This has all got out of hand now hasn't it? All I said was that a steam railcar would be a good idea based on their small size and their likelihood of standing out as different among a lot of people's collections. I wasn't thinking Bachmann in particular, though I'm sure they'd make an exemplary job of one should they tackle it.

 

As for criticising the North Eastern Railway, let's not forget the sheer size of geographical area we are talking here, as well as who invented the railway in the first place. 

 

I believe it was the Romans.

 

 

But you can't really call the S&D a proper railway. It went from nowhere to nowhere. It's wasn't until that nice Mr Stephenson went to the other side of the country when we got a real railway.

 

 

 

Jason

[Dick Turpin]

But you can't really call the S&D a proper railway.  It went from nowhere to nowhere.

It went from collieries to the docks actually, so helped speed the industrial revolution up a bit. It may have not been a 'proper' railway ie carrying passengers between cities, but it WAS the first. Look, it's one thing us lot are really proud of round here so kindly don't knock it! 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Dick Turpin

[Stevelewis]

Anyone reckon they'll add another loco to their 009 range?

 

It   wouldn't  surprise  me!  and  perhaps  more  rolling  stock.

 

Let  us  not  start  guessing  there  is  only a week to go now  

[The Black Hat]

The problem with NER locomotives is that no one has yet made a rtr one yet.

 

Yes Mainline made the J72 but it was the BR version of a J72 - although backdating this was not too much of a chore.

And Hornby have done the Q6 but it is the LNER remodelled version and backdating although possible is quite a task and not for the faint hearted.

 

At least Bachmann have now shown in preparation J72 versions that represent an NER locomotive - with a livery yet to be defined - and this is a big step forward.

 

Yes the Bachmann E1/J72 will come in full North Eastern image. However, most modelers want to model the BR transition period, and thus the models that are all pregrouping are being done in their later guises as that will fit against the other grouping and BR standards in the range, thus you model a time when you can have it all. Its one reason why the NER - being north east region - is looking so obvious as the range for the rest largely already exists. Its also highlighting again when people say NER they are possibly meaning North East Region rather than pushing for NER as the pregrouping company. If you think that it is meant as that, it starts making a lot more sense. 

 

If some where the same throughout then that's an aditional bonus. Hornbys LNER Q6 I think did come with the NER Darlington smokebox front and details so could go NER Black. 

 

 

But you can't really call the S&D a proper railway. It went from nowhere to nowhere. It's wasn't until that nice Mr Stephenson went to the other side of the country when we got a real railway.

 

Jason

 

Yes it was. Careful, now.... 

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by The Black Hat

[micklner]

Hornby Q6 has a late version Boiler and oil drive neither much good for NER.