Mark 1’s withdrawn in the 1960’s

[adb968008]

Does anyone know why mk1’s were being withdrawn as early as the late 1960’s ?

It kind of seems that at less than 15 years old SK/TSOs were already going yet earlier stock was still around, and as has been seen mk1’s had 3 more decades of life in them.

Redundancy would seem a strange reason, as that would negate the need for building mk2’s.

[stovepipe]

Mainly due to rusting out of the windows and doors. The constructional details were improved in the later builds, which survived much better. IIRC one of the problems was the square cornered windows accumulated water which got inside the outer steel panelling into the insulation material, and rotted the sides out.

 

Also with line closures, cascading of DMU stock, and much better utilisation of rolling stock, there was no need to repair the ones too far gone. Quite a few others got used in various conversions as well, to SR TCs, motorail flats, exhibition stock, etc.

[AberdeenBill]

I think some builds were contaminated with asbestos.  Cravens comes to mind?   There was also a move away from compartment stock.   It would be interesting to see the actual withdrawal numbers.

 

Bill

[AMJ]

The long compartment stock was some of the first to go and we only have some of the shorter compartment stock as survivors.  See the comments in Parkin's book on MkI stock that echoes the comments about rust, sot and the dreaded Asbestos.

 

Someone once suggested we got some MkI stock and the comments came back I wouldn't touch those rust buckets! Removal of the Asbestos insulation can be prohibitively expensive.

 

I like the plethora of types yet you look at the later coach builds and you say get just FO, SO, DVT and a catering vehicle.

 

MkI's are a nice modular design where you can decide which doors and windows you want thus making limitless options.

[russ p]

Is there no long surbubans left?

I'm sure someone once told me the first preserved mk1 is supposedly a TSO on the north Norfolk

[stovepipe]

This record of the VCT register suggests only two long-framed non-ganwayed Mk1s left - but I can only find this one BS 53049 (43264) at Mangapps Farm.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1949

[stovepipe]

I think some builds were contaminated with asbestos.  Cravens comes to mind?   There was also a move away from compartment stock.   It would be interesting to see the actual withdrawal numbers.

 

Bill

 

I'm sure that asbestos was a factor, though Cravens built only relatively small numbers of seated stock - 15 SO, 40 CK, and 45 SK. Asbestos it seems was much less used from 1957 onwards.

 

I guess the full withdrawal details will be in the Longworth book, but from RCTS lists the picture at the end of 1971 was

 

Type            Built      Remaining          %age Remaining

FO               151           149                   99

TSO/SO      1385         1105                  80

BSO             181           107                   59

FK                410           238                   58

BFK              28              27                    99

CK               1268          875                   69

BCK             276           156                    57

SK               2218         1616                  73

BSK             1500          907                   60

 

C                    57             0                      0

CL                  50            12                     24

BS                 284           22                     8

S                   300            68                    23

SLO               28             15                    54

SO (NG)        26              0                      0 

 

[sleepers and restaurant vehicles ignored due to number of conversions etc.]

 

Apart from proving I have time on my hands today....it shows that of the 5,700 corridor coaches built, a third had been withdrawn (or re-purposed) within 8 years of production finishing. For the non-corridor coaches, all 149 of the long-frame coaches had been withdrawn by 1968, and only 177 of the 596 short-frames remained 15 years after production ceased.

[russ p]

I had no idea so many mk1s had gone so early

[chrisf]

This record of the VCT register suggests only two long-framed non-ganwayed Mk1s left - but I can only find this one BS 53049 (43264) at Mangapps Farm.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1949

 

This is corroborated by the RCTS list.

 

Chris

[45125]

The early demise of MK1s can be but down to several factors, lack of suitable work/contraction of the network, overhaul costs, collision damage etc. The fact that many had asbestos I them was a really a reason in the sixties as even in to the early eighties the odd one still had the blue death in them.

 

Al Taylor

[mark54]

The main reason was that they were surplus to BR's requirements. With the rapid contraction of the railways post-Beeching and the much better utilization of stock in the late 60s (many sets covering 3 or 4 legs a day rather than 1 or 2 of the steam era), there was a big reduction in the amount of coaching stock required to run services. After all pre-nationialisation stock was withdrawn, the next stock to be surplus would be Mk1 stock built in the early 50s. As can be seen by Stovepipes figures above, open stock fared much better than corridor stock, indicating BR's general trend towards this type.

[stovepipe]

The reduction in BSOs is a bit of an anomoly. The first two Doncaster batches from 1955/6 must have suffered badly from rot, or were they used in conversions?

[russ p]

Weren't quite a few loco hauled mk1s used in southern EMU sets?

[woodenhead]

Don't forget the introduction of Mark 2 stock would have led to a contraction In top flight use of Mark 1s and with excess stock for secondary services then the chop of less desirable coaches would be the natural progression

[Phil Bullock]

And of course not all completely chopped - car flat conversions beckoned for some

 

Phil

[John M Upton]

Does the two long non corridor survivors include the fibre glass bodied S1000S?

[Bomag]

Does the two long non corridor survivors include the fibre glass bodied S1000S?

 

S1000S would show up as a TSO; it uses an under frame from either 4377 or 4378 both of which were squidged at Lewisham.

 

Also may of the early withdrawals were VS, what was wanted was increasingly air braked and dual heated.

[balders]

The reduction in BSOs is a bit of an anomoly. The first two Doncaster batches from 1955/6 must have suffered badly from rot, or were they used in conversions?

Just over a third of that first batch of 76 ended up in departmental use with a couple being converted to car flats

 

Regards

 

Guy

['CHARD]

Thanks guys for starting and continuing this topic, it's been an essential find - I have now ordered the Longworth, and - prompted by Amazon's algorithms - a couple of the definitive Larkin books.

 

Awesome!

[trevor7598]

I think it is true to say that none of the long Mk. 1 suburbans  ever carried the corporate ' Rail Blue ' livery.

Amazingly BR was scrapping long seconds alongside new construction of the same design of body shell, at

Eastleigh , to strengthen the Hampshire 2 car diesel units to 3 cars.( 2H to 3H ).

[pete_mcfarlane]

Weren't quite a few loco hauled mk1s used in southern EMU sets?

Off the top of the head, there were quite a few EMU vehicles converted from hauled stock, not just on the Southern:

 

3-TC and 4-TC trailer units

The two intermediate coaches in a 4-REP (the motor coaches were new builds)

Replacements for the buffet coaches in 4-BEP buffet units to convert them to more 4-CEPs. 

Augmentation of the two car class 309 to four coaches (and replacement of buffet cars in the buffet units)

 

There were also a few loose vehicles like the Trailer Luggage vans and a couple of buffet coaches converted from loco hauled stock to work with EMUs. 

[eastwestdivide]

Looking at conversions to departmental etc...

From my Platform 5 departmentals book of about 1984, there was for example:

conversions in 1966/67 of some Mk1 BT to 9639xx series freightliner brake vans.

 

and the 975xxx series starting with RDB975000 (Lab coach 1) from Mk1 RSO M1003 converted in 1970.

other examples

DB975017 (staff/dorm for ballast cleaner) converted 1970 from Mk1 BTO (-BSO) W9207

LDB975062 (electrification staff coach) converted 1971 from Mk1 TK (=SK) M24062 

Many of the early 9750xx series are from BTO (=BSO) or BTK (BSK) - I guess the brake made them more useful.

 

Couldn't spot any earlier Mk1 conversions to departmental than 1970 (edit: apart from the 963xxx FL BVs).

 

 

As an aside, it would be handy to get some of those old books scanned and OCR'd so that they're searchable.

Edited February 5, 2018 by eastwestdivide

[GordonC]

Wow!! I had no idea so many had such short lifespans either. While the open coaches did fair better, it wasn't by much when you look at the percentages of survivors for equivalent types BSO and BSK at 60% and 59% respectively and TSO 80%, SK 73%

 

still quite high losses

[russ p]

Is that list totally accurate especially for the non gangwayed stock?

There hardly seems enough lavatory stock to form the outer suburban sets that appear to feature in pictures of GN services of the 70s

[balders]

Off the top of the head, there were quite a few EMU vehicles converted from hauled stock, not just on the Southern:

 

3-TC and 4-TC trailer units

The two intermediate coaches in a 4-REP (the motor coaches were new builds)

Replacements for the buffet coaches in 4-BEP buffet units to convert them to more 4-CEPs.

Augmentation of the two car class 309 to four coaches (and replacement of buffet cars in the buffet units)

 

There were also a few loose vehicles like the Trailer Luggage vans and a couple of buffet coaches converted from loco hauled stock to work with EMUs.

3926 - 3946 TSO's from lot 30086 (1954-55) were converted to EMU trailers 1966-67 along with all bar 16 of the TSO's in the range 3998 - 4045 of lot 30149 (1955-56). Three of that batch were converted in 1975. Also 14 from lot 30219 of 1957.

 

21 CK's from 1951 lot 30019 (the first ever batch of MK1 corridor firsts) out of the 33 built all got converted as well along with a few others so I'm guessing that they weren't in bad nick or were worth refurbishing. A lot of them subsequently lasted until the end of MK1 slam door stock as well.

 

Regards

 

Guy