Unusual tender fitting on 45212 - what for?

[Trev52A]

Photographs of 'Black Five' No 45212 from 1968 show what appears to be a strip of metal running up the bodywork of the tender just behind the cab doors. My own pictures (here's one) show the driver's side, but others online seem to confirm it was the same on the other side.

 

45212 at Preston on 18th July 1968

 

Does anyone have any idea what this fitting was, and when it was applied?

 

On a separate thread started by robmcg 'Last BR scheduled steam 3-8-1968' I thought that it might  be some sort of repair, but I couldn't work out how it could be effective. Tony (Rail-Online) then chipped in that he was pretty sure it was an electrical conduit and associated clips, but he had no idea what for.

 

So, over to you!

 

Cheers

Trevor

 

Edited to use correct title of Rob's thread

Edited July 5, 2018 by Trev52A

[Enterprisingwestern]

Looks like a conduit of some variety, seems to bend out over the flange at the tender base and be curved over the beading at the top.

Electric lighting, self weighing tender or similar???

 

Mike.

[Wild Boar Fell]

Very odd indeed, especially as to me it looks like it has lashing eyes of some sort. Maybe some sort of tarpaulin mount?

[LMS2968]

No suggestions as to what it was, but it was mirrored on the other side.

 

 

Note the bent cab following her excursion into a turntable pit.

[Steamport Southport]

Looks like temporary repairs to allow it to work for the last few months.

 

Didn't have it in 1969 so possibly a tender swap?

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/45212-lms-5212-br-45212/

 

It's definitely nothing to do with electric lights as the only 4000 gallon tender fitted with electric lights was the one attached to 44767 and that didn't have anything there.

 

Self weighing tenders looked nothing like a 4000 gallon.

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2711667

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

No suggestions as to what it was, but it was mirrored on the other side...

 

 Nearly so.Six projections on the driver's side, five on the fireman's. Any clue in that?

[cctransuk]

No suggestions as to what it was, but it was mirrored on the other side.

 

 

Note the bent cab following her excursion into a turntable pit.

 

I'd guess that it's a cut-and-shut repair.

 

If she fell into a turntable pit and bent the cab to that extent, the tender wouldn't have got away scot-free.

 

Perhaps a scrap tender was cannibalised to repair the front end?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

(.... or perhaps someone's been playing with Photoshop)?

[great central]

Didn't 45212 finish up at the Worth Valley if I remember correctly. Are there any photos of it shortly after arriving anywhere? Presumably it would still have had the tilted cab then and unless the tender was exchanged, might there be something giving a close view?

I tend to agree with the comments about a bodge repair to damage sustained when falling into a turntable pit though

[Rail-Online]

I am sure it is not a 'cut and shut' but an external conduit held by clips. It had tender 9316 all its life.  It went in for a Heavy Intermediate emerging on 29/1/1966 and I would think it got the conduit then.

 

Tony

[Steamport Southport]

Didn't 45212 finish up at the Worth Valley if I remember correctly. Are there any photos of it shortly after arriving anywhere? Presumably it would still have had the tilted cab then and unless the tender was exchanged, might there be something giving a close view?

I tend to agree with the comments about a bodge repair to damage sustained when falling into a turntable pit though

 

Yes. In my post there's one taken at Haworth in 1969 not long after arrival. 

 

Cab's straight and no extra metal on the tender.

 

Note it's still in BR condition even though the smokebox number is it's LMS number.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited July 6, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[PenrithBeacon]

If the tender was damaged during 45212's 'excursion' why not just replace it with another? there were lots to choose from. Even bodges cost money and I'm assuming here that the bodge being postulated was a graft of the front of one onto the rest of another. That's a big job!

[Steamport Southport]

If the tender was damaged during 45212's 'excursion' why not just replace it with another? there were lots to choose from. Even bodges cost money and I'm assuming here that the bodge being postulated was a graft of the front of one onto the rest of another. That's a big job!

 

Not really. It was still the steam age in the NW and most of the remaining sheds had the capacity to do such work quite easily.

 

I still think it had a tender swap at preservation though.

 

http://www.ten.vintagecarriagestrust.org/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=139

 

 

 

Jason

['CHARD]

Not really. It was still the steam age in the NW and most of the remaining sheds had the capacity to do such work quite easily.

 

 

Not a cat in Hell's chance - cut and shut a tender in the last year of steam?  Just pull a tender out of the scrap lines, it's not like there was a shortage of defunct Stanier kit.

 

I'm with the conduit crowd.

[Wheatley]

At the top of the tender whatever it is goes over the top beading and continues down/over the other side. It's also catching the light on the outside edge which suggests conduit rather than overlapping bit of sheeting.

 

The clips (or whatever they are) have a hole at the top, like the eye of a needle.

[Steamport Southport]

Not a cat in Hell's chance - cut and shut a tender in the last year of steam?  Just pull a tender out of the scrap lines, it's not like there was a shortage of defunct Stanier kit.

 

I'm with the conduit crowd.

 

I didn't say it was a cut and shut.

 

But they still had the ability, if not the will. Whatever it is happened well before the last month of steam, possibly years previously.

 

They've fitted something to a Stanier tender for the last couple of years of it's life. That probably took about the same amount of time as replacing a bit of damaged plating.

 

 

 

Jason

[Trev52A]

At the top of the tender whatever it is goes over the top beading and continues down/over the other side. It's also catching the light on the outside edge which suggests conduit rather than overlapping bit of sheeting.

Capture.PNG

 

The clips (or whatever they are) have a hole at the top, like the eye of a needle.

Capture2.PNG

 

Thanks for doing those 'zoom-ins', Wheatley. You've saved me a job - I was just about to upload an enlargement myself!

 

And just to clarify - the loco had its cab fixed long before it was withdrawn - there is a view on the KWVR site showing it at Carlisle in 1967 all shipshape but very dirty, as if  it had been out of works for ages. 

 

Does anyone have the RCTS book on the Black Fives? (Volume 1 will cover the pre-war batch of locos, as per this example). It might get a mention. If it doesn't, it should do if they ever do a revision!!

 

Cheers

Trevor 

[Trev52A]

No suggestions as to what it was, but it was mirrored on the other side.

 

 

Note the bent cab following her excursion into a turntable pit.

 

Do you know the date of this picture with the damaged cab, please?

 

Trevor

['CHARD]

I didn't say it was a cut and shut.

 

But they still had the ability, if not the will. Whatever it is happened well before the last month of steam, possibly years previously.

 

They've fitted something to a Stanier tender for the last couple of years of it's life. That probably took about the same amount of time as replacing a bit of damaged plating.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Sorry Jason, you were responding to this, which is where my quote should really have sat:

 

'I'm assuming here that the bodge being postulated was a graft of the front of one onto the rest of another. '

[PenrithBeacon]

Not really. It was still the steam age in the NW and most of the remaining sheds had the capacity to do such work quite easily.

 

I still think it had a tender swap at preservation though.

 

http://www.ten.vintagecarriagestrust.org/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=139

 

 

 

Jason

Work of that sort was a main works jobbie if only because demarcation lines had been agreed with the unions, and overhauls had ceased in 64. There were plenty of engines in the scrap lines all over the northwest in 66-68 period which could donate a tender to a loco in need.

When did the K&WVR agree to buy this engine? That might have a bearing on whether the locomotive survived after accidental damage of that sort.

[Metr0Land]

Looks like they papered over the cracks early in preservation.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCGJqjKD1XU

 

 

Hat, coat, etc etc

[LMS2968]

Although a lot of the damage had been reduced by 1968, the cab was not perfectly aligned and still leaned a bit when she was preserved. It was many years into her preservation before it was finally straightened fully. I recall from 1968 that there was surprise that someone would buy a loco in such condition.

[Trev52A]

Thanks for that info, LMS2968

 

I hadn't realised the cab was still a bit skewed in 1968 until now, when I enlarged my shot of the fireman's side, which shows it here:

 

45212 at Preston 2nd August 1968. This is my only photograph showing that side, but you can just make out the metal strip running up the side of the tender which is what started this thread.

 

The driver's side seems fine in this view:

 

45212 at Preston 15th July 1968. Unfortunately the negative does not show any of the metal strip on this side - indeed, none of the tender at all!

 

Wonky cab or not, it still pulled the 20.50 Preston to Blackpool South passenger train on 3rd August 1968, which I travelled on.

 

I also have to admit I probably never even noticed the metal whatever-it-is on the tender side at the time, only when looking at photographs much later.

 

Any more ideas on what it was?

 

Cheers

Trevor

 

Edit to thank LMS2968

Edited July 6, 2018 by Trev52A

[john new]

Thanks for that info, LMS2968

 

I hadn't realised the cab was still a bit skewed in 1968 until now, when I enlarged my shot of the fireman's side, which shows it here:

 

(689b) 45212 Preston station 02-08-68 (Trevor Ermel) .jpg

45212 at Preston 2nd August 1968. This is my only photograph showing that side, but you can just make out the metal strip running up the side of the tender which is what started this thread.

 

The driver's side seems fine in this view:

 

(562a) 45212 Preston 15-07-68 (Trevor Ermel) .jpg

45212 at Preston 15th July 1968. Unfortunately the negative does not show any of the metal strip on this side - indeed, none of the tender at all!

 

Wonky cab or not, it still pulled the 20.50 Preston to Blackpool South passenger train on 3rd August 1968, which I travelled on.

 

I also have to admit I probably never even noticed the metal whatever-it-is on the tender side at the time, only when looking at photographs much later.

 

Any more ideas on what it was?

 

Cheers

Trevor

 

Edit to thank LMS2968

Was just about to look at the copy of that photo' you sent me and which is going into our next SLS Journal Trevor as when I page set it this afternoon I didn't notice the bent cab .  Saved me one job but given me a heads up for a caption addition!

 

PS (An update) This question is now being asked of SLS Members via our Journal 913 which will reach members in mid-September. Any answers received via J913 will be posted here and the converse (if RMWebbers solve it first) will be added as snippet in our subsequent J914. Still an analogue print magazine so there will be some delay.

Edited August 22, 2018 by john new

[Steamport Southport]

Work of that sort was a main works jobbie if only because demarcation lines had been agreed with the unions, and overhauls had ceased in 64. There were plenty of engines in the scrap lines all over the northwest in 66-68 period which could donate a tender to a loco in need.

When did the K&WVR agree to buy this engine? That might have a bearing on whether the locomotive survived after accidental damage of that sort.

 

The last full general steam overhauls at Crewe ended in 1967. That included a batch of WD 2-8-0s and 70013 Oliver Cromwell.

 

 

 

Jason

[john new]

At the top of the tender whatever it is goes over the top beading and continues down/over the other side. It's also catching the light on the outside edge which suggests conduit rather than overlapping bit of sheeting.

Capture.PNG

 

The clips (or whatever they are) have a hole at the top, like the eye of a needle.

Capture2.PNG

 

Although this image will still be in the next SLS Journal with a request for info' there is a clue in the top enlargement of the two - is the round blob some form of local DIY tender light, perhaps for aiding coaling in some extra murky corner of a shed somewhere? if yes the conduit could be power running up from a battery or DIY dynamo slung underneath the tender.