Great Model Railway Challenge - Channel 5

[Huw Griffiths]

Perhaps it is an indication of where the RTR manufacturers believe the easiest/softest market is. 

 

Attracting new entrants to the hobby is rather an unknown science. Gone are the days when most young boys wanted a train set for Christmas, which they could buy in the local toy shop.

 

…

 

Why haven't Hornby, Bachmann or the others sponsored/provided a "starter" style layout to tour local shows?

It's possible that some people might suggest that they had 15 large examples to choose from, about 5 months ago.

 

Whether you, I, or anyone else would subscribe to that view is another matter completely.

 

 

Joking aside, it would be perfectly possible for them to do something like this - if they felt it would be worth the costs of building / commissioning such a layout and taking it round the shows.

 

Another issue might concern the availability of suitable RTR motive power and stock. There have already been a number of comments about the very limited (and disjointed) selection offered to teams taking part in this year's challenge - some of the prices quoted were also "interesting" (even more so, as they were allowed very limited budgets).

 

The fact that the teams were able to assemble suitable trains for their builds tells me that a lot of these were "on loan" from various sources - the teams themselves - their friends - various shops and companies - in other words, "the usual suspects".

 

 

I am sure a lot of people here remember those small Hornby display layouts that used to appear in shops - ovals of track at different heights - which let you set trains moving round for a minute or two, when you put a coin in a slot.

 

Although something similar might have a place now, at shows it might also be possible to have something a bit different - perhaps a "drive it yourself" shunting puzzle, "tweaked" to include some operating features - a turntable - a transfer table - possibly even some points, or a container crane.

 

If this sounds like the sort of thing that might have appealed to a much younger "me", back in the 1970s, there might be a reason for this (although I would probably have also wanted to build the thing).

 

 

It's possible that my comments might also sound familiar to another group of people - those of us who are also members of the US site FreeRails.com. A number of years back, there was a thread about how to ensure that teenage visitors to some local (well, local in that part of the World) show had something to interest them. If I recall correctly, I believe there had previously been a switching puzzle - built by teenagers connected with a local club, officially intended to be operated by teenage visitors. (Yes, right.)

 

Apparently, this layout had seen so much use (by just about everyone visiting the show), that it now needed replacing. I can't remember what actually got built - but I seem to recall a number of people liking a suggestion for another switching puzzle, with a couple of ovals of track round the outside to keep some really young visitors entertained.

 

OK - I would have preferred to keep the switching plank and the tail chaser separate - but I don't think it right to treat everyone young enough to be in school as a homogeneous mass of Th*m*s fans.

 

Let's face it - even when I was in primary school, I wasn't really into steam (apart from GWR Pannier tanks and the like) - I preferred Diesel and electric outline, especially shunters, multiple units and trams. You can safely assume that the 53 year old "me" still has the same excellent taste (although I've since added GWR razor edge railcars, DB "Donald Duck" units and Köfs - and AGEIR boxcabs to my wish list).

 

Will I ever see all these items as affordable RTR? Come on - but there's nothing wrong with hoping … .

 

 

 

Anyway, I hope the hobby as a whole finds effective ways of making the most of the "boost" on offer, courtesy of everyone connected with GMRC.

 

I also hope this endeavour is followed by GMRC 2019, GMRC 2020, … .

 

At this point, I can imagine some people screaming at their computers for me to "practice what I preach" - don't waste your time. I actually did enter this year (as part of one of a number of "virtual teams" - it doesn't matter which one) - and I was "greenlit" - before my parents' health "went south" and I was forced to withdraw.

 

Whether I would have got very far is anyone's guess - but, for me, taking part is every bit as important as the result.

 

Since this series has appeared on Channel 5, my mother has asked me if I'd be interested in being involved in a future series - and, of course, the answer would still be "yes", my parents' health permitting (and probably also any such team consisting of people local to me, as I don't have access to a car).

 

 

In other words, I'd happily get involved in a future series, if the logistics could be made to work - but, unfortunately, I am not able to give an absolute commitment right now.

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[Marcus-Jay]

Most youngsters these days become familiar with preserved steam long before they encounter the main-line network. Therefore, the likelihood of them choosing to model "modern" is, in no way, a foregone conclusion.

 

What information do you base that assumption on please John?

[Steamport Southport]

That doesn't have the same bite as "geek"

 

My Concise Oxford Dictionary defines "geek" as "a knowledgeable and obsessive enthusiast" - which is the sense in which I use it.

 

...R

 

Yes. But I think they are using the Urban Dictionary definition of geek instead, rather than a dictionary definition.

 

 

Don't read if easily offended.

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=geek

 

 

 

Jason

[john new]

What information do you base that assumption on please John?

I am not the John referred to but if the people turning out to watch the Dorset Coast Express (and similar) arrive at Weymouth is typical then the interest in steam is high across all ages with a fair turnout, diesel specials the crowd is less but still there (although with less small children brought to watch) daily electrics hardly any interest ever seen.

 

The above is not conclusive, but as anecdotal evidence it supports the proposition made as regards active interest and the "attraction factor' of trains as a thing to go out to see as a particular event. It needs a young, contemporary traction modeller, to explain what drew them into the hobby; probably though a topic for a spin-off thread. 

Edited October 21, 2018 by john new

[Signalist]

...Most youngsters these days become familiar with preserved steam long before they encounter the main-line network. Therefore, the likelihood of them choosing to model "modern" is, in no way, a foregone conclusion.

 

While for me this was true coming from a poor family that could not afford rail travel - we had to go by car for the most part because it was cheaper - the only time I went on a train was at a preservation centre. I had no idea what travelling on a modern train was like until as a teenager Mum took us to London to visit a museum courtesy of free tickets from Kellogs.

 

I don't think that is the case anymore though, with much higher ridership of trains in urban areas it must be much more commonplace to take the train. For long distance though the poor will be more likely to fly in order to save money now!

[Colin_McLeod]

What's wrong with manufacturers concentrating on the needs of railway modellers? New blood does not have to be youngsters' train sets. IMHO the so called "new blood" can be adults interested in model railways rather than train sets.

 

We have been trying to get away from the "grown men playing with toy trains" image so why get upset when the manufacturers are doing just that?

 

In these different times the route to the hobby has changed. It is a hobby in its own right, not a "grown up" version of a toy.

[Steamport Southport]

What's wrong with manufacturers concentrating on the needs of railway modellers? New blood does not have to be youngsters' train sets. IMHO the so called "new blood" can be adults interested in model railways rather than train sets.

 

We have been trying to get away from the "grown men playing with toy trains" image so why get upset when the manufacturers are doing just that?

 

In these different times the route to the hobby has changed. It is a hobby in its own right, not a "grown up" version of a toy.

 

I definitely agree.

 

It's worth looking at the boxes where it says "Not suitable for children under 14 years".....

 

 

 

Jason

[Huw Griffiths]

It's worth looking at the boxes where it says "Not suitable for children under 14 years".....

 

Hmmm … I suspect the 13 year old "me" would have had something to say about that, if faced with that sort of patronising assumption on packaging, back in 1978.

 

Just saying … .

[colin smith]

this was always in oo permission for n gauge if required

 

Which is a massive shame.

[jcm@gwr]

Which is a massive shame.

 

To be fair, it is still the most popular scale/gauge combo,

it is also (still) the best compromise between the space it

occupies, the detail, and suitability for younger users.

Once you got them 'hooked' on the hobby, then you can

start introducing 'variations on a theme'!

[Ian Morgan]

"Why haven't Hornby, Bachmann or the others sponsored/provided a "starter" style layout to tour local shows?"

 

It's possible that some people might suggest that they had 15 large examples to choose from, about 5 months ago.

Well, Peco have announced that they will have one of the GMRC layouts on their stand at Warley. Ok, not your average local exhibition, but it's a start.

[Coryton]

Which is a massive shame.

 

Maybe if they do another series they'll be able to afford an n gauge camera wagon and won't have to insist on OO.

[colin smith]

To be fair, it is still the most popular scale/gauge combo,

it is also (still) the best compromise between the space it

occupies, the detail, and suitability for younger users.

Once you got them 'hooked' on the hobby, then you can

start introducing 'variations on a theme'!

 

There is that. I'm just thoroughly bored by 90% of OO British std gauge modelling. There are great prototypes out there but too much is too familiar.

[Steamport Southport]

Hmmm … I suspect the 13 year old "me" would have had something to say about that, if faced with that sort of patronising assumption on packaging, back in 1978.

 

Just saying … .

 

Maybe kids were more sensible then. Or more likely they weren't going to sue if Little Johnny decided to eat a wheel he's just pulled off...

 

 

 

 

Jason

[colin smith]

Maybe if they do another series they'll be able to afford an n gauge camera wagon and won't have to insist on OO.

 

Still boring. HO gauge, O gauge, 1 gauge, LGB, Fn3, plus all the narrow gauge variations, would get away from the bog-standard British outline OO/N gauge stuff. The world is full of amazing prototypes that hardly anyone models.

[Mike Storey]

Despite prompting, I was not allowed to watch the first episode. More flipping railways - no thanks. There was something "essential" on another channel, I was told by the current Mrs Storey.

 

So I also missed the second episode, first time around, but then managed to find the repeat later in the week, with SWMBO in attendance, but feigning indifference.

 

Then Episode 3, I was told, was about to start, and that I should make her coffee quickly. She sat there, rivetted, with just the odd snide comment.

 

She has now reserved the rest of the series for us to watch.

 

Sometimes (never???), I just don't understand wimmin, or normals.

 

But obviously the producers do...... more than one of our local friends have commented about it down at the local hostelry, and several more remotely on t'interweb, none of them modellers or having shown any previous interest other than taking the mick, and it is obvious they have been watching it too. Someone knows what they are doing. Good, for all of us, cynics and rivet counters included.

[Pacific231G]

I hate to say this but I found myself becoming rather bored with prog 3. I don't think this was in any way a reflection on the latest three teams but more that it just felt that I was seeing something very similar overall to what I'd seen in the first two episodes. It was rather  as if the competitors on Bake Off were simply required to make a birthday cake each week. There would be variations in the icing and touches of imagination but they'd be fundamentally similar. Comparing GMRC with the world's longest model railway series last year, which admittedly was a very different animal with little to do with actual railway modelling,  there seemed in that to be enough totally different challenges that we weren't by and large seeing the teams overcoming the same problems over and over again. 

 

I don't know the answer to this and it may well be that the wider public, knowing little about railway modelling, are finding a lot more that's new and interesting than I am. I'd really like to see the Great Model Railway format going forward into future series but for that to happen  I think the format will need some tweaking.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Signalist]

Not restricting the teams to a defined 10' x 5' space might allow a bit of variety. Several teams would have preferred to rearrange the baseboards to 3'4" x 15'.

 

I think that there is an appreciation that more modelling needs to be shown hence why all the backstories got abandoned in the final cut. They have to set the scene, and introduce the characters, but there is no need to show endless views of Fawley Hill - just a bit at the beginning is enough. I am sure that peoples' attention span will run easily to ninety minutes and a bit more judge's deliberations showing the points allocated for each item would be a nice thing to give the viewers something to agree or disagree with.

 

If Four in a Bed can run to two and a half hours just showing little more than the judging and deliberation of four B&Bs the public's attention span will take things being a bit more in depth.

[LocoLaurie]

Not restricting the teams to a defined 10' x 5' space might allow a bit of variety. Several teams would have preferred to rearrange the baseboards to 3'4" x 15'.

 

I think that there is an appreciation that more modelling needs to be shown hence why all the backstories got abandoned in the final cut. They have to set the scene, and introduce the characters, but there is no need to show endless views of Fawley Hill - just a bit at the beginning is enough. I am sure that peoples' attention span will run easily to ninety minutes and a bit more judge's deliberations showing the points allocated for each item would be a nice thing to give the viewers something to agree or disagree with.

 

If Four in a Bed can run to two and a half hours just showing little more than the judging and deliberation of four B&Bs the public's attention span will take things being a bit more in depth.

 

Good points made here. We wanted our model to be end-to-end as it suited the design better and emailed Knickerbocker with that idea but were told we had to make it 10x5ft. Later on the producer mailed me to say that another team had made it end-to-end without asking and their pre-building on two baseboards with the track could not be undone, so it is probably the only one. I also suggested smaller 4x2 boards and then the teams could decide how many to use and it what configuration they wanted? 

 

There was a lot more to our model that was cut. So yes, less Fawley and maybe they could have shown our forced perspective raised N Gauge loco that was running in the background? We had five locos moving, three at any one time. Was that clear? 

 

The raised tracks were always part of the original design submitted before the show, yet the edit made it seem an afterthought. I'll attach the Photoshop image I sent them. 

 

Other editing included me saying 'it's rubbish'. The sequence seemed harsh as there was actually more context to that. Plus it was edited so you think the girls made that model - they didn't. The editor probably didn't know who made it. Plus that engine shed was rubbish for that section because it didn't match but was great on the sci-fi Steampunk section at the end. 

 

Our demo ran smoothly, and was very slick and fast. I think it was the best in this respect but editing makes the others run slicker too. We also had some cuts here as the sequence was longer. But they don't want you to think we might have been more of a contender maybe? Having said that I thought Basingstoke deserved the win as they had more animations than us and I'd already been told ours was too flat for the judges. So I felt they had it. One of them said they thought we did.

 

I think we did ok. Especially as most of the team were newbies. When Steve Flint came over to me and talked about managing the team more and delegating, I wasn't sure where that came from, as everyone was busy. It makes sense now having seen the show as they discussed between themselves how I was going to manage it. This created further jeopardy that wasn't there. On day three I said I was delegating more but it wasn't the case really and situation was normal. It worked as we finished with time to spare (you can see us sitting down on a bench is some end shots drinking tea). The design had been met. We made ours from a set of three blank baseboards in 23.5 hours with just a few pre-built buildings. We really did it in the time. I'm really proud of my team. 

 

As a film maker I appreciate the power of editing, and it did make for a good program. I'm sure many teams could explain similar things. So please be aware when you see the shows, you are being led to vote for your winner. Although I still think Basingstoke beat us on animation and scratch built, yet we were much more creative on the brief. I think it was closer than it seemed. Tonbridge were attempting some clever track work too, much cleverer than ours. 

 

So yes less Fawley Hill please lol. 

 

One final thing. We were told at the end our design was too extreme ever to have won, and this upset my team as we were allowed to build knowing that beforehand. I didn't mind as I'd rather build a losing extreme sci-fi model that showcased what I do, than a trad model that won. I think our was extreme. But I see their point. To be fair to the show, they did not know how the judges were going to vote did they? p.s. Steve put my sci-fi Cato Pass in Oct Railway Modeller too, so he does see the value in broadening the appeal. 

 

So there are a lot of things going on you don't know. Main thing for me was we put sci-fi model railway in front of a million people, thanks to Knickerbocker & team. Job done. 

 

Regards, Laurie 

[PatB]

I have an idea for the next RMWeb Challenge. Rather than building an actual model, perhaps those who consider the GMRC to be a poor showcase for the hobby and its participants, working individually or as teams, could put together a pilot episode of the sort of program they think should be made, showcasing aspects of the hobby they consider important.

 

Now I know production of a polished finished product is beyond the skills and resources of all but a few and so such a challenge entry could not reasonably be expected to be to professional standards. However, given a moderate digital video camera and access to good modellers and their layouts via, for example, club connections, the barriers to entry are not especially high.

 

Rules could be fairly basic. G1. Must be aimed at a general, not enthusiast audience. 2.Subject matter and format would be open. If the makers can hold audience attention on the construction of a P4 point or the laying of 10000 individual rooftiles, good luck to them. 3. So as not to set the bar too high I'd envisage length to be about 15 minds. 4.Can't actually think of much else. Creativity can have free reign.

 

I don't think that's too big an ask. A good idea can certainly overcome production deficiencies. I've seen good, engaging stuff on a variety of subjects shot on mobile phones by 15 year old so it can be done.

 

So how about it?

[Dunsignalling]

Still boring. HO gauge, O gauge, 1 gauge, LGB, Fn3, plus all the narrow gauge variations, would get away from the bog-standard British outline OO/N gauge stuff. The world is full of amazing prototypes that hardly anyone models.

Most HO I come across is at least as formulaic as any British OO, I just see less of it.

 

If one really wants to attract newcomers to the hobby, which is presumably one motivation behind this contest, success is most likely via the door with fewest hindrances to entry.

 

The more esoteric prototypes/scales/gauges that demand months/years of study and/or scratchbuilding almost everything as the sole option to create ones desired layout will always be the province (but for a few very exceptional individuals) of the committed modeller who has worked up from the basics and accumulated the necessary skills and research material.  

 

I'd venture that finding fifteen teams of such specialists willing to participate in knocking layouts together in three days would be a tough ask.

 

John

Edited October 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[PaulRhB]

Still boring. HO gauge, O gauge, 1 gauge, LGB, Fn3, plus all the narrow gauge variations, would get away from the bog-standard British outline OO/N gauge stuff. The world is full of amazing prototypes that hardly anyone models.

Unfortunately though the apparent sponsors of stock don’t make the other scales. I suppose it’s about what’s possible with that restriction. Certainly with LGB you’d not fit much in the budget these days. However with the likes of IPengineering, HGLW, North Pilton etc a small 16mm layout could be done in the budget if they were allowed to open it up

[rob D2]

Still boring. HO gauge, O gauge, 1 gauge, LGB, Fn3, plus all the narrow gauge variations, would get away from the bog-standard British outline OO/N gauge stuff. The world is full of amazing prototypes that hardly anyone models.

Yeah, good idea, let’s get the public interested in HO, and then they’ll want what they see on the railway in HO......oohhh.

Rolls eyes.

[Phil Parker]

Still boring. HO gauge, O gauge, 1 gauge, LGB, Fn3, plus all the narrow gauge variations, would get away from the bog-standard British outline OO/N gauge stuff. The world is full of amazing prototypes that hardly anyone models.

 

If you can find another million people who feel the same way then you can have a telly programme. For the mass market in the UK, OO is the way to go, especially for the first series. This can't be about modelling "interesting" prototypes, you'll eat more than 24 hours on research alone, never mind scratch building the models, then the forums will be full of people moaning about prototype inaccuracies. 

 

I'm sure your Fn3 layout will be marvellous, and that you can build it very, very quickly. I look forward to reading about it in a magazine in the future.

[Ian Morgan]

Spoiler Alert: Look out for 3 different gauges on the Basingstoke Bodgers layout for the Final.

 

(reminder, the rules said that there had to be some 'OO' track for the camera train, but other sizes could be added)

 

Oh, and my fine scale, rivet-counting credentials can be seen in my signature below.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Ian Morgan