Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[PaulRhB]

In stock in the shops too 😀 here’s two of the coaches with the terrier, runs very well too. 
 

 

[PaulRhB]

On 24/02/2023 at 15:53, PaulRhB said:

 

 

 

Number 10 now added as a Hornby Online exclusive to complement the earlier No11 set

 

[RichardLong]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Number 10 now added as a Hornby Online exclusive to complement the earlier No11 set

 

Unfortunately the livery is wrong on the new Hornby.  If it’s got “Isle of Wight Central Railway” written in full on the tank sides it should be crimson red, not black.  The black livery (as depicted correctly on last year’s release) came later and only had “IWC” on the sides.

 

I’d love it if they did one of the red ones, but not sure I want to shell out the money for an inaccurate livery that’s neither one thing or the other…

Edited January 9 by RichardLong
Typo

[Edwardian]

On 24/02/2023 at 15:53, PaulRhB said:

In stock in the shops too 😀 here’s two of the coaches with the terrier, runs very well too. 
 

 

 

Not a bad fist of the locomotive. 

 

Certainly a point for the non-copper-capped chimney. It is probably strictly as preserved, but can pretty well represent the 1918-1923 condition of this loco.

 

As for the coaches, that weirdness in the eaves panels looks like an attempt to show the coloured glass toplights of the 1860 IWR Oldbury now preserved. Obviously it looks nothing like an Oldbury, and represents an entirely different railway company from the IWC. 

 

3 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Number 10 now added as a Hornby Online exclusive to complement the earlier No11 set

 

 

Ah duh!

 

No.10 did carry this lettering (and in A1 condition as here) 1900-c.1915, but as Richard Long points out, this should not be in black but in crimson red!

 

Careless, Hornby, careless.

 

 

  

Edited January 9 by Edwardian
more to say

[RichardLong]

18 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

As for the coaches, that weirdness in the eaves panels looks like an attempt to show the coloured glass toplights of the 1860 IWR Oldbury now preserved. Obviously it looks nothing like an Oldbury, and represents an entirely different railway company from the IWC. 

 

Since you’ve mentioned carriages, they’re having another go at the IWC carriages this year - this time without the IWR blue toplights:

 

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, RichardLong said:

Since you’ve mentioned carriages, they’re having another go at the IWC carriages this year - this time without the IWR blue toplights:

 

 

 

Makes me mourn all the more for the demise of Hattons Genesis!

 

I will stick to my ex-LSWR 1871 composite. I believe the IWC had four and they were often seen on Ventnor Town services behind one of the IWC Terriers: 

 

[phil-b259]

14 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Makes me mourn all the more for the demise of Hattons Genesis!

 

 

I serious doubt they are deceased never to be seen again with respect to the product itself.

 

As I said on the other thread the simple fact is batch 1 was well received by modellers with both batches either selling out totally on pre-orders or in days of them being available to buy.

 

Hattons class 66 got sold to Acurascale to improve and release as their own product and I'm fairly sure its a case of when, not if the same sort of thing will happen with the Genesis coaches.

Edited January 9 by phil-b259

[Edwardian]

8 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I serious doubt they are deceased never to be seen again with respect to the product itself.

 

As I said on the other thread the simple fact is batch 1 was well received by modellers with both batches either selling out totally on pre-orders or in days of them being available to buy.

 

Hattons class 66 got sold to Acurascale to improve and release as their own product and I'm fairly sure its a case of when, not if the same sort of thing will happen with the Genesis coaches.

 

I agree, and I would be surprised if someone didn't pick them up to manufacture at some point in the future; they were just too good and too popular not to. However, I'm well off topic now and at risk of speculating. It is a sad fact and a shame, nonetheless, that both the Oxford Terrier and the Almost-Stroudley coaches are nowhere near as good as Hornby could have made them, had they not been in a rush to spike other people's guns. I can only hope that nowadays Hornby has a less KCholeric disposition.  

 

There is no pre-Grouping loco or carriage in the offing from Hornby, but I do eagerly anticipate both Locomotion and its first model of an 1840s carriage! Let's hope Hornby's on best form for those. 

[Nick C]

13 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Certainly a point for the non-copper-capped chimney. It is probably strictly as preserved, but can pretty well represent the 1918-1923 condition of this loco.

If we're being picky, No 11 would have had a locally-cast (Wheeler & Hurst) chimney when she carried this livery (and a replica thereof when she carried it in preservation). The Drummond chimney was a later SR addition - but tooling for yet another chimney would have ben excessive for one model!

[Edwardian]

35 minutes ago, Nick C said:

If we're being picky, No 11 would have had a locally-cast (Wheeler & Hurst) chimney when she carried this livery (and a replica thereof when she carried it in preservation). The Drummond chimney was a later SR addition - but tooling for yet another chimney would have ben excessive for one model!

 

Indeed, hence my carefully phrased "non-copper-capped chimney", because it looks indeed as if the Southern era Drummond chimney, for which the model is tooled, has been used, rather than a Wheeler & Hurst (of Newport IIRC?) chimney. Given the available tooling, I thought the best choice was made and I was happy to award a point for that. 

 

Also, I think the handrail on the tank front was something added at some point after Grouping, so may be on the preserved loco, but would not have been seen in service in this livery. There are no doubt several other minor detail inconsistencies - I have not checked - and, of course, the many solecisms endemic to the Hornby Terrier tooling (as an IOW extended bunker model, No.11 gets a 'win' by not featuring the late condition short toolbox that No.10 and the A1 models generally must suffer), but I still think "fair representation" of the 1918-1923 condition is a fair comment on No.11, not that I take you to be differing from that. It's an attractive model that does the job and the Hornby generic coaches are what they are and are no worse in this iteration. 

 

I'm not sure if the Grouping era vacuum ejector pipe has been left off - IIRC the IWC was a Westinghouse braked line at this time - but it looks to be present in the picture of No.10, yet I think that pales into insignificant next to it being the wrong colour. 

 

 

Edited January 10 by Edwardian
coherence

[Fireline]

16 hours ago, RichardLong said:

Unfortunately the livery is wrong on the new Hornby.  If it’s got “Isle of Wight Central Railway” written in full on the tank sides it should be crimson red, not black.  The black livery (as depicted correctly on last year’s release) came later and only had “IWC” on the sides.

 

I’d love it if they did one of the red ones, but not sure I want to shell out the money for an inaccurate livery that’s neither one thing or the other…

 

They are aware of this, and are correcting the loco to a red livery. 

[Nick C]

15 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I'm not sure if the Grouping era vacuum ejector pipe has been left off - IIRC the IWC was a Westinghouse braked line at this time - but it looks to be present in the picture of No.10, yet I think that pales into insignificant next to it being the wrong colour. 

The whole Isle of Wight system was Westinghouse braked throughout - the FYN had some vac stock, but that was converted to air post-grouping.

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Nick C said:

The whole Isle of Wight system was Westinghouse braked throughout - the FYN had some vac stock, but that was converted to air post-grouping.

 

Yes, "at this time" meant when the independent IWC was running its Terriers; the IWC only started fitting its locos with Westinghouse gear nine years before it acquired its, and the Island's, first Terrier.  Thus, the Terrier era fell within the Westinghouse era, that's all I meant, so all IWC Terriers would remain Westinghouse fitted when new to IWC.

 

I was not intending to comment on the Grouping era, which isn't really an interest, but reading back my post, I may have inadvertantly implied that Island Terriers were vac fitted on Grouping. I did not mean that. I meant that the vacuum fittings were only a feature of any Terriers post Grouping (save any exception in the form of those sold out of service, which would not necessarily resemble SR vac-fitted examples. e.g, the RVR's home-made ejector), so it's a Grouping era feature of Hornby tooling that needs to be left off models of Island Terriers. It is all the more confusing, then, that what looks like the SR era ejector pipe appears on a Hornby A1 in the picture of No.10.   

[SR71]

I'm not sure if this is confused or not in the above but worth clarifying in case anyone reading gets the wrong idea. A Westinghouse house pump being fitted can be for for air or vacuum brakes. I had a period advert for them (can't now remember where) that showed the same pump would do both with a slight change.

 

Found it;

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im18880106E-West.jpg

Edited January 10 by SR71
added link

[Graham_Muz]

17 hours ago, RichardLong said:

Unfortunately the livery is wrong on the new Hornby.  If it’s got “Isle of Wight Central Railway” written in full on the tank sides it should be crimson red, not black.  The black livery (as depicted correctly on last year’s release) came later and only had “IWC” on the sides.

 

I’d love it if they did one of the red ones, but not sure I want to shell out the money for an inaccurate livery that’s neither one thing or the other…

 

1 hour ago, Fireline said:

 

They are aware of this, and are correcting the loco to a red livery. 

 

Indeed, I have spoken with Hornby and this is being corrected to be lined crimson.

[PaulRhB]

Splendid, thanks to Graham and any others who contacted Hornby to correct it. That kind of informed feedback benefits us all. 

[Karl]

48 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

 

Indeed, I have spoken with Hornby and this is being corrected to be lined crimson.

Fantastic news! I wouldn't have bought it in black but in crimson there's another sale made!

[Edwardian]

All credit to those who got in touch with Hornby over the IWC A1 No.10 Rolling Stones edition while I was still too paralysed with mirth to think of doing so.

 

Also of potential interest - and this might also be communicated to Hornby - is the Lancing Works Terrier. This is essentially an A1 body, albeit it with later chimney, but it is the chassis that is of note. It has the iron brake shoes as fitted to the late-build Terriers, but is not just the unaltered A1X chassis, because the A1X condition under-valance sandboxes have been omitted. If this tooling combination has been seen before in the range, I apologise, but in general I do not keep an eye of the the Terrier range. 

 

This tooling combination allows later-built Terriers to be produced, in IEG onward, but, specifically, in the IWC context, would allow a red A1 condition IWC No.12 (ex No.84, Crowborough, the last Terrier built) to be produced at some point.   

 

 

Edited January 10 by Edwardian
Spelling!

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, SR71 said:

I'm not sure if this is confused or not in the above but worth clarifying in case anyone reading gets the wrong idea. A Westinghouse house pump being fitted can be for for air or vacuum brakes. I had a period advert for them (can't now remember where) that showed the same pump would do both with a slight change.

 

Found it;

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im18880106E-West.jpg

Interesting, although I'm pretty sure most (if not all) vacuum-fitted Terriers had a separate ejector - presumably the pump was for air or vac, not both? Those Terriers that were vac-only didn't have the donkey pump, from what I've seen - including FYN #2, which was the only vacuum-only loco to run on the IOW pre-66.

[wainwright1]

3 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

 

Indeed, I have spoken with Hornby and this is being corrected to be lined crimson.

Looking at Isle of Wight terriers.

There is another livery option for an IWCR terrier in crimson livery. Consulting 'Locomotives of the Isle of Wight Railways', there is a picture of the first Terrier purchased ex No.75 Blackwall in 1889 with a garter on the side tank, but no lettering, also still with wooden brake blocks. The running number 9 was placed inside the garter.

 

There is also a nice picture of No.12 in lined black in A1X form with the extended bunker in lined black livery with IWR on the side tanks.

 

Another option would be the Freshwater, Yarmouth and Newport Railway terrier in attractive lined green livery.

Edited January 10 by wainwright1
Additional info

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

Looking at Isle of Wight terriers.

There is another livery option for an IWCR terrier in crimson livery. Consulting 'Locomotives of the Isle of Wight Railways', there is a picture of the first Terrier purchased ex No.75 Blackwall in 1889 with a garter on the side tank, but no lettering, also still with wooden brake blocks. The running number 9 was placed inside the garter.

 

There is also a nice picture of No.12 in lined black in A1X form with the extended bunker in lined black livery with IWR on the side tanks.

 

Another option would be the Freshwater, Yarmouth and Newport Railway terrier in attractive lined green livery.

 

Yes, No.9in red with the garter surrounding the number 9 is my favourite. It may have only looked thus for 2-3 years, but it would be my choice. 

 

I suspect No.9 retained its wooden brake blocks at least until overhaul in 1911, by which time it would certainly be wearing the red livery with the ISLE OF WIGHT CENTRAL RAILWAY tank lettering.

 

Another option is No.11 in A1 form, as pictured in the new black-lined "I.W.C." livery (c.1915?), but still with the original copper-capped chimney and un-extended bunker, and with blanked coal rails. All that is do-able with the Hornby tooling.

[Nick C]

18 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Looking at Isle of Wight terriers.

There is another livery option for an IWCR terrier in crimson livery. Consulting 'Locomotives of the Isle of Wight Railways', there is a picture of the first Terrier purchased ex No.75 Blackwall in 1889 with a garter on the side tank, but no lettering, also still with wooden brake blocks. The running number 9 was placed inside the garter.

 

There is also a nice picture of No.12 in lined black in A1X form with the extended bunker in lined black livery with IWR on the side tanks.

 

Another option would be the Freshwater, Yarmouth and Newport Railway terrier in attractive lined green livery.

You couldn't do FYN2 from the existing tooling as she had an odd boiler, fitted during her time with the LSWR, with Drummond pattern safety valves on the dome. Strangely that was one of the accessories included in the original Dapol tooling, despite the dome being moulded on!

 

Of the IWCR fleet, I believe 9 was the only one to carry the garter livery, all four had the metallic red. AFAIK the extended bunkers came at the same time as the repaint into black, but only 11 and 12 received A1x boiliers prior to the grouping, 10 being rebuilt after and 9 being scrapped still carrying the A1 boilier.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

You couldn't do FYN2 from the existing tooling as she had an odd boiler, fitted during her time with the LSWR, with Drummond pattern safety valves on the dome. Strangely that was one of the accessories included in the original Dapol tooling, despite the dome being moulded on!

 

Of the IWCR fleet, I believe 9 was the only one to carry the garter livery, all four had the metallic red.

 

 

Yes, I think the lettered livery came in before the next Terrier arrived.

 

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

AFAIK the extended bunkers came at the same time as the repaint into black, but only 11 and 12 received A1x boiliers prior to the grouping, 10 being rebuilt after and 9 being scrapped still carrying the A1 boilier.

 

Not quite. No.11 managed to get photographed in A1 form at Newport in what is apparently the lined black "I.W.C." livery with number on the bunker, yet has an unextended bunker (with blanked coal rails) and the Stroudley copper-capped chimney. It is reproduced in MJE Reed's book, who estimates the date at c.1915.  Thus it seems that the black livery was adopted around this time and in No.11's case, the company did not wait until the fitting of the A1X boiler in 1918. It seems likely that the Wheeler and Hurst Chimney and extended bunker come at that point, but this would seem to have been a re-paint of the lined black livery.   

[Nick C]

18 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Not quite. No.11 managed to get photographed in A1 form at Newport in what is apparently the lined black "I.W.C." livery with number on the bunker, yet has an unextended bunker (with blanked coal rails) and the Stroudley copper-capped chimney. It is reproduced in MJE Reed's book, who estimates the date at c.1915.  Thus it seems that the black livery was adopted around this time and in No.11's case, the company did not wait until the fitting of the A1X boiler in 1918. It seems likely that the Wheeler and Hurst Chimney and extended bunker come at that point, but this would seem to have been a re-paint of the lined black livery.   

Looking in the new Cooper/Faulkner/Maycock/Silsbury book, I think that's actually another variant again - there's a good photo of it on p55. The lining appears to be a single colour, with square corners rather than the rounded ones of the white-red-white lining. There's also a photo of 2-4-0T No 7 in yet another variant, red with "I.W.C.R" and lined with inverted corners... The usual minefield it seems!

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Looking in the new Cooper/Faulkner/Maycock/Silsbury book, I think that's actually another variant again - there's a good photo of it on p55. The lining appears to be a single colour, with square corners rather than the rounded ones of the white-red-white lining. There's also a photo of 2-4-0T No 7 in yet another variant, red with "I.W.C.R" and lined with inverted corners... The usual minefield it seems!

 

Yes, Reed has it down as black, and it strionglky resembles that late livery, but, really, who knows!