Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[Edwardian]

I was recently in a position to compare a Hornby Terrier directly with the Rails/Dapol treatment of the same prototype. The pictures may be of interest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matloughe]

@Edwardian what is your opinion of the two models?

Personally I went for the Dapol SECR version the livery just looked better applied and detailed, I have compared Dapols Brighton and Hornby's Leadenhall previously:

The front of the cab with its machine-gunned aesthetic doesn't do much for me on the Hornby versions of the Terrier - although saying that I might look at the front of Carisbrooke as thats an A1x and compare to Dapols 2644. The boiler join line on the Hornby model is also particuarly glaring once you know its there you cannot unsee it! I'm also not sure if the Improved Engine Green are two different shades or if subtle differences like the darker Hornby shaded letters, lack of bright hand rails, and less pronnouced white on the lining are making the Hornby version look darker in colour. Hornby's wheels certainly dont look the right colour compared to the bodywork or the Dapol model.

Kind Regards,
Gary
 

Edited January 12 by Matloughe
Correcting poor spelling.

[RichardLong]

For anyone who’s interested, Hornby have now corrected the livery for their forthcoming IWCR no. 10 on their website: https://uk.Hornby.com/products/iowcr-class-a1-0-6-0t-no-10-terrier-era-2-web-exclusive-r30356

 

[jonnyuk]

that does look very nice,  would be a rule 1 purchase

[sleepyrider]

That does indeed look good. Seriously tempted. But that means I'd also have to buy the pack containing number 11. Damn you pretty red livery!

[Edwardian]

On 12/01/2024 at 12:34, Matloughe said:

@Edwardian what is your opinion of the two models?

Personally I went for the Dapol SECR version the livery just looked better applied and detailed, I have compared Dapols Brighton and Hornby's Leadenhall previously:

The front of the cab with its machine-gunned aesthetic doesn't do much for me on the Hornby versions of the Terrier - although saying that I might look at the front of Carisbrooke as thats an A1x and compare to Dapols 2644. The boiler join line on the Hornby model is also particuarly glaring once you know its there you cannot unsee it! I'm also not sure if the Improved Engine Green are two different shades or if subtle differences like the darker Hornby shaded letters, lack of bright hand rails, and less pronnouced white on the lining are making the Hornby version look darker in colour. Hornby's wheels certainly dont look the right colour compared to the bodywork or the Dapol model.

Kind Regards,
Gary
 

 

It seemed tactless to give my views on the Hornby topic, so I didn't.

 

So, if you want these photographs with a candid comparison commentary, go here instead:

 

 

 

But since you asked .....!

 

Hornby's Terrier is by no means a bad model. In my view it suffers by comparison with the Rails/Dapol version, but that does not make it a bad model! There's just a better one.

 

In general, like you I think, Hornby's A1X seems to fare better than the A1. I am pretty familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the Rails/Dapol A1 version, having been asked to advise on the project. Some may think that makes me biased, but I have always been frank about where the Hornby model scores and the Dapol one misses, but the Rails/Dapol A1, objectively and demonstrably, is significantly more accurate in a number of areas. I also think it's demonstrably more refined, better detailed with more scale finesse. It's still not perfect, however!

 

That said, both manufacturers' models are, in my experience, good runners, and, cosmetically the Hornby model is by no means a bad model. It's a good model, but Rails insisted on more extensive tooling options, which allowed for a more accurate representation of A1 identities.  Hornby's A1 has a number of late condition A1X features because it did not tool for more appropriate A1 features. It's for the customer to decide whether this matters, and it probably won't for most. Hornby scored on price point on first release, so actually the difference between the two versions was sort of fair enough, and it made the Hornby model good value. Now the Hornby models seem much more expensive than they were initially, of course. 

 

Thus, with any given A1, e.g. SE&CR 751, it's not that I don't like the Hornby model, it's just that I've had an option that is more accurate. There are many points in relation to the Hornby model, imperfections if you like, that I can overlook. There are a couple that just bug me to the point I can't be happy with the model as a whole. That's a personal and subjective response and doubtless comes from having done so much research. I cannot unknow or unsee certain things! For me the things I just cannot get past are the (preservation era?) late condition wash out plugs and the late condition short rear tool box. They scream WRONG! to me in a way they won't for most folk. Rails/Dapol has fewer imperfections and none I cannot overlook, so...  

 

Other views are available!

 

 

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, RichardLong said:

For anyone who’s interested, Hornby have now corrected the livery for their forthcoming IWCR no. 10 on their website: https://uk.Hornby.com/products/iowcr-class-a1-0-6-0t-no-10-terrier-era-2-web-exclusive-r30356

 

 

That is good news and might be one I'd consider(!), given Rails never did a red island Terrier.

 

The exact shade of red must be conjecture, but in this view at least it looks a little darker than some have suggested. It would be good to have a contrast between the IWC's 'metallic crimson' and the darker IWR wine red. We shall have to see.

 

This colourised reconstruction has been put forward as the IWC shade. I prefer this. As ever, however, little if anything is certain!

  

[Matloughe]

9 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

It seemed tactless to give my views on the Hornby topic, so I didn't.

 

To be fair... I am pretty tactless 😁

But when the supplier cannot get the basic shade of livery right on an initial release (Black instead of Crimson Lake) then I also like to question them - and my email about the livery of the IoWCR Terrier went unanswered sadly; but at least they listened to someone and changed it. Although I don't think its bright enough myself for a Lake colour.

Will I order it...? I'm not sure, I used to collect Pokemon cards and the desire to 'Catch them all' is strong especially as it is the only example I am aware of in a red base livery. What puts me off quite a bit is the price point at almost £150 RRP which is significantly higher than the original release RRP without any real difference in details added to make it unique (aside from livery), effectively what we have here is a recoloured R3781 Rolvenden.

Perhaps I am being too critical - I understand that things cost more for raw materials it just feels like the Isle of Wight Central livery was just a follow on to the A1x train pack done on the cheap before it was pointed out the livery was wrong. I also love how the boiler join above the splasher has been airbrushed out on the provided image from Hornby:

11 hours ago, RichardLong said:

I'll have to reserve judgement I think. If it had been an LBSC livery I think I would have been a 'must have' especially as no-one has made an A1x in Umber correctly and that would fill a nice niche historically. But this will probably be the only Red Terrier we ever see.

Kind Regards,
Gary

[IWCR]

There  is  a  detailed  painting  specification  in  existence  issued  by  the  Isle  of  Wight  Central  Railway  to  Brighton  works  for  the  painting  of  the  Terriers  purchased  by  them.  This  spec  is  far  and  above  anything  the Central  would  have  done  themselves  however  the  repaint  was  part  of  the  purchase  price.  Anything  the  Central  painted  red  themselves  was  likely  a  Red  Oxide  base  colour  with  varnish  over,  there  was  a  noted  reluctance    to  spend  money.   

 

Pete

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, IWCR said:

There  is  a  detailed  painting  specification  in  existence  issued  by  the  Isle  of  Wight  Central  Railway  to  Brighton  works  for  the  painting  of  the  Terriers  purchased  by  them.  This  spec  is  far  and  above  anything  the Central  would  have  done  themselves  however  the  repaint  was  part  of  the  purchase  price.  Anything  the  Central  painted  red  themselves  was  likely  a  Red  Oxide  base  colour  with  varnish  over,  there  was  a  noted  reluctance    to  spend  money.   

 

Pete

 

That accepted, Hornby's rendition up-thread looks more akin to one of the current 'sparkly-metallic' car finishes, (that resemble nail-polish)!

 

Certainly not varnished red-oxide.

 

CJI.

[Steamport Southport]

On 24/01/2024 at 23:41, Edwardian said:

 

It seemed tactless to give my views on the Hornby topic, so I didn't.

 

So, if you want these photographs with a candid comparison commentary, go here instead:

 

 

 

But since you asked .....!

 

Hornby's Terrier is by no means a bad model. In my view it suffers by comparison with the Rails/Dapol version, but that does not make it a bad model! There's just a better one.

 

In general, like you I think, Hornby's A1X seems to fare better than the A1. I am pretty familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the Rails/Dapol A1 version, having been asked to advise on the project. Some may think that makes me biased, but I have always been frank about where the Hornby model scores and the Dapol one misses, but the Rails/Dapol A1, objectively and demonstrably, is significantly more accurate in a number of areas. I also think it's demonstrably more refined, better detailed with more scale finesse. It's still not perfect, however!

 

That said, both manufacturers' models are, in my experience, good runners, and, cosmetically the Hornby model is by no means a bad model. It's a good model, but Rails insisted on more extensive tooling options, which allowed for a more accurate representation of A1 identities.  Hornby's A1 has a number of late condition A1X features because it did not tool for more appropriate A1 features. It's for the customer to decide whether this matters, and it probably won't for most. Hornby scored on price point on first release, so actually the difference between the two versions was sort of fair enough, and it made the Hornby model good value. Now the Hornby models seem much more expensive than they were initially, of course. 

 

Thus, with any given A1, e.g. SE&CR 751, it's not that I don't like the Hornby model, it's just that I've had an option that is more accurate. There are many points in relation to the Hornby model, imperfections if you like, that I can overlook. There are a couple that just bug me to the point I can't be happy with the model as a whole. That's a personal and subjective response and doubtless comes from having done so much research. I cannot unknow or unsee certain things! For me the things I just cannot get past are the (preservation era?) late condition wash out plugs and the late condition short rear tool box. They scream WRONG! to me in a way they won't for most folk. Rails/Dapol has fewer imperfections and none I cannot overlook, so...  

 

Other views are available!

 

 

 

 

Ah, but you did!

 

 

143 tactless posts!

 

Which is over a hundred more than the next contributor. Have you thought about therapy?

 

 

 

Jason

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

Have you thought about therapy?

 

Jason

 

Yes, I've often thought you might well benefit from it.

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by Edwardian
spelling

[JSpencer]

I've all 3 SECR versions. The original Hornby (ex Dapol) tooling one, the last Hornby version and the Rails/Dapol version.

 

The Original Hornby ex Dapol version was the cheapest  of the 3 (for obvious reasons) and the paintwork is bright! The Original Hornby ex Dapol versions were the standard shunters on the layout for the past couple of decades with 8 of them. But they are retired now with the P class taking their spot.

That said I've 6 of the new Hornby and Rails versions, split 3/3. IF ever someone does Fenchurch as an A1... 

 

Back to the later SECR versions, I first ordered Rails in DCC format. Later the Hornby one appeared in the bargain bins, so I brought that too as sometimes you just want to relax and let trains go round, and DC is far better for that!

Running and reliability wise, they are as good as each other. Build wise I put Rails ahead as Hornby can have bits fall off. As for accuracy, Rails is better especially the buffers.

 

Below pics of the SECR versions (all 3), and the KESR versions from both. Details between Bodiam (rails) and Rolverden (Hornby) and mostly due to errors on Hornby's part. Though some differences are historically correct.

 

 

 

[03060]

On 24/01/2024 at 21:00, RichardLong said:

For anyone who’s interested, Hornby have now corrected the livery for their forthcoming IWCR no. 10 on their website: https://uk.Hornby.com/products/iowcr-class-a1-0-6-0t-no-10-terrier-era-2-web-exclusive-r30356

 

 

Has anyone else experienced problems trying to pre-order one of these ?

 

I've tried twice now to checkout using the guest option, all is Ok except for the address section which will only allow me to enter a (max) 10 characters and seems to be asking / allowing only for a postcode of which mine comes only to 8 characters ... this then becomes a problem when trying to move to the next checkout page saying that the address section is not valid.

 

This is the first time that I've tried to use the Hornby site to buy anything so it may be something that I'm not understanding ... but what have others found, please ?

 

Regards,

Ian.

[sleepyrider]

On 28/01/2024 at 21:05, 03060 said:

Has anyone else experienced problems trying to pre-order one of these ?

I just preordered no. 10 successfully, though have been registered on the site for a while. Maybe register first then preorder?

[03060]

On 30/01/2024 at 22:02, sleepyrider said:

I just preordered no. 10 successfully, though have been registered on the site for a while. Maybe register first then preorder?

 

Many thanks @sleepyrider, now pre-ordered without issue once I had created an account and even allowed me to use my newly given reward points !

 

Regards,

Ian.

[sleepyrider]

Happy days! Maybe guest checkout doesn't work with preorders because they're not taking payment yet so need to save details? 

[Edwardian]

We have pictures of a decorated sample. I have to say that this rendering of the red is more to my liking than that suggested by the graphic, and it does look good.

 

I have a feeling that I may finally end up buying a Hornby Terrier for more than just its chassis!

 

 

Of course this release will only be available from the Hornby website, so you will have to pay the RRP of £149.99. That is steep for something of the quality of the Hornby Terrier. To offer a comparison, the RRP of the forthcoming Dapol 517 and 4800 0-4-2s is only £140, and retailers are offering discounted pre-order prices. The infinitely superior Rails/Dapol Terrier is still available in several versions directly from Dapol at their RRP of £110. 

 

But, this is the only Edwardian Island Terrier on offer, and it does make for a very attractive model for those prepared to pay the asking price.  I'm afraid, this time, that includes Yours Truly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JSpencer]

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

We have pictures of a decorated sample. I have to say that this rendering of the red is more to my liking than that suggested by the graphic, and it does look good.

 

I have a feeling that I may finally end up buying a Hornby Terrier for more than just its chassis!

 

 

Of course this release will only be available from the Hornby website, so you will have to pay the RRP of £149.99. That is steep for something of the quality of the Hornby Terrier. To offer a comparison, the RRP of the forthcoming Dapol 517 and 4800 0-4-2s is only £140, and retailers are offering discounted pre-order prices. The infinitely superior Rails/Dapol Terrier is still available in several versions directly from Dapol at their RRP of £110. 

 

But, this is the only Edwardian Island Terrier on offer, and it does make for a very attractive model for those prepared to pay the asking price.  I'm afraid, this time, that includes Yours Truly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do wish Dapol/Rails would do another run. I had high hopes of Fenchurch in A1 condition with condenser pipes (done by Dapol in O gauge). Ideally sound fitted (thus one reason why Dapol is preferred) but if not, I'll go for a Hornby one (I currently have 6 of the modern tooled Terriers, 3 from each make).

[Edwardian]

27 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

I do wish Dapol/Rails would do another run. I had high hopes of Fenchurch in A1 condition with condenser pipes (done by Dapol in O gauge). Ideally sound fitted (thus one reason why Dapol is preferred) but if not, I'll go for a Hornby one (I currently have 6 of the modern tooled Terriers, 3 from each make).

 

We very nearly did have a red IWC Terrier, but in the end Dapol stuck to identities for which they already had 7mm artwork they could adapt.

 

The other frustration is actually no IEG Terrier without condenser pipes, as was the typical 1890s-1900s appearance.  As it is, both Hornby and Dapol gave us an excess of Terriers more suited to the 1880s. At least Dapol did a Terrier in umber, which was a great move, IMHO.

 

Still, we are grateful for what we have!

 

 

 

Edited May 16 by Edwardian
grammar

[Edwardian]

Pretty though the IWCR decorated sample is, I don't think Hornby has understood the lining scheme.

 

Here it is in Glorious Technicolor:

 

 

 

In essence, there is a black border with a gap and then a yellow line.

 

The tank-side lining panel is smaller, further inboard from the tank edges than Hornby depict, because it needs to accommodate that border. 

 

Further, this lining panel is not simply yellow-black-yellow, but yellow-gap-black-gap-yellow.

 

You can discern how this livery scheme is applied in the case of Terriers Nos. 9 and 10 in these pictures:

 

 

 

As the details are a bit hard to discern, I've tried to illustrate the scheme on the Hornby sample picture. It's crude and is neither to scale or in proportion, but I hope it suffices to get the point across:

 

 

I wonder if Hornby saw what I take to be a modern colourised rendering from a contemporary B&W pictire near St Lawrence.It's a pretty evocation, but does not seem to interpret the lining correctly:

 

 

The actual photograph is not clear enough to show th elining, so the artist has done his best. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16 by Edwardian
more to say

[drt7uk]

Sorry for the stupid question, but am I right in assuming that when it says 'web exclusive' it means it won't be available from any other retailer?

 

Just trying to decide whether to get or not. The Stepney I have was £80 when I got back in 2019... 😭

[03060]

6 hours ago, drt7uk said:

Sorry for the stupid question, but am I right in assuming that when it says 'web exclusive' it means it won't be available from any other retailer?

 

Just trying to decide whether to get or not. The Stepney I have was £80 when I got back in 2019... 😭

Yes but you also have to sign up for the  'Free to join' Hornby rewards scheme to enabalise you to order one. You can then use the points that you earn on this purchase.

 

I tried to order one without joining the scheme but couldn't progress through the order system, ending up in a loop as it wouldn't recognise my postal details. Once I'd joined it went straight through.

 

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Ian.

[G-BOAF]

Just when you think you've seen it all in terms of QC fails, my newly delivered Hornby Terrier arrived with a CRACK in the cab side, the cab front leaning fwd and the roof slightly bent. Clearly some tolerance too tight or flash not removed prior to assembly.But to force parts such that a relatively thick piece of plastic cracks...!!! And will Hornby have spare bodies available for a recently produced model... Of course not.

 

[Trevor Hammond]

Hornby's quality control is getting worse and is now beyond a joke.