Heljan announce Class 45 in OO

[younGGuns7]

15 minutes ago, Gary H said:

Will this new model have brass axle bearings in the bogies like Bachmann etc ??

Didn’t this get answered in another thread when you asked 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Gary H]

14 minutes ago, younGGuns7 said:

Didn’t this get answered in another thread when you asked 🤷🏻‍♂️

Didn't see it in my notifications, now answered it.

[Holmesfeldian]

In unrelated news, a representative from Bachmann was at Kidderminster diesel depot yesterday taking measurements and photographing every detail of D182 to improve their future class 45 and 46 models.

 

This might be of interest to those who consider Bachmann's model to be a more accurate 'shape'.

[Ian J.]

7 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

In unrelated news, a representative from Bachmann was at Kidderminster diesel depot yesterday taking measurements and photographing every detail of D182 to improve their future class 45 and 46 models.

 

This might be of interest to those who consider Bachmann's model to be a more accurate 'shape'.

 

I wonder if this suggests B are working on a complete Peak retool...? It would fit the way they're doing things now, saying nothing until actual release.

[GordonC]

22 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

 

I wonder if this suggests B are working on a complete Peak retool...? It would fit the way they're doing things now, saying nothing until actual release.

 

I'd be really surprised if they were, there must be a limit to the number of Peaks that can be sold with their own earlier releases and presumably Heljan soon too. Even if flawed, it'd have to be risky.

 

One thing I did note is that we haven't seen a more accurate flush marker light fronted Class 46 yet. Could they possibly be looking at that? Having said that, from measuring to appearing in the regular announcements might be 2 or 3 years apart!

 

I know modellers are loco-centric, but I'd really have thought other unproduced types DMUs and EMUs would have higher sales potential

Edited August 11, 2022 by GordonC

[97406]

8 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

In unrelated news, a representative from Bachmann was at Kidderminster diesel depot yesterday taking measurements and photographing every detail of D182 to improve their future class 45 and 46 models.

 

This might be of interest to those who consider Bachmann's model to be a more accurate 'shape'.

 

Bachmann and Accurascale are going to great lengths to get the shape right and they are succeeding these days. Heljan need to move past the inaccuracies in some of their range. I still have a lot of their models, because when they get it right, they are truly great.   

[DaveClass47]

2 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I'd be really surprised if they were, there must be a limit to the number of Peaks that can be sold with their own earlier releases and presumably Heljan soon too. Even if flawed, it'd have to be risky.

 

One thing I did note is that we haven't seen a more accurate flush marker light fronted Class 46 yet. Could they possibly be looking at that? Having said that, from measuring to appearing in the regular announcements might be 2 or 3 years apart!

 

I know modellers are loco-centric, but I'd really have thought other unproduced types DMUs and EMUs would have higher sales potential

I have to agree regarding the sales potential for new DMU’s to be produced. Even adding a third coach to the Bachmann Class

101 would be a good move. 
 

If Bachmann do retool to ‘peak’ then it’s true to form with regard to their other retools in connection with the ‘Regional Sales Exclusives’ they churn out.

 

They did these exclusives for the 20,37 and 47 and each of them were then retooled! They had a load of regional exclusives of the Peak’s a couple of years ago. A sure fire indication a new one is in the works! 

[Mophead45143]

2 hours ago, DaveClass47 said:

They did these exclusives for the 20,37 and 47 and each of them were then retooled! They had a load of regional exclusives of the Peak’s a couple of years ago. A sure fire indication a new one is in the works! 

 

The thing is though, the recent regional exclusive sealed beam 45's were partly retooled bodies on the original chassis, which makes me very skeptical that Bachmann would do a complete re-tool of their peaks any time soon after a recent 'upgrade'. It's almost as if they're saying, "that's all your getting for now......."

 

Hope I'm wrong though!!!

 

Cameron

[Holmesfeldian]

5 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I'd be really surprised if they were, there must be a limit to the number of Peaks that can be sold with their own earlier releases and presumably Heljan soon too. Even if flawed, it'd have to be risky.

 

How many different manufactures have released the Class 37 and 47 ?

Then Bachmann issue an all new version with bells and whistles - which sells.

Would a brand new 45/46 really be such a risk compared with the above ?

I'd be happy with a Class 40 with 4mm scale blue star detail on the bogie, not 7mm 😆

[YesTor]

4 hours ago, 97406 said:

Bachmann and Accurascale are going to great lengths to get the shape right and they are succeeding these days. Heljan need to move past the inaccuracies in some of their range. I still have a lot of their models, because when they get it right, they are truly great.   

 

I have to echo this viewpoint.  With so many outstanding new models being released (more than most can afford in one hit?), and standards currently so high, there simply isn't room for new models with glaring shape errors, especially when those errors are highlighted so early in the production process.  And unfortunately, as much as I would like a definitive 'Peak' well, sadly the Heljan offering is nowhere near, for the above reasons. 

 

Best

Al

[Ragtag]

59 minutes ago, Holmesfeldian said:

 

How many different manufactures have released the Class 37 and 47 ?

Then Bachmann issue an all new version with bells and whistles - which sells.

Would a brand new 45/46 really be such a risk compared with the above ?

I'd be happy with a Class 40 with 4mm scale blue star detail on the bogie, not 7mm 😆

Given the variety of services, liveries & not to mention longevity of the 37s and 47s I'm not sure that's comparing apples with apples.

[PjKing1]

18 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

 

How many different manufactures have released the Class 37 and 47 ?

Then Bachmann issue an all new version with bells and whistles - which sells.

Would a brand new 45/46 really be such a risk compared with the above ?

I'd be happy with a Class 40 with 4mm scale blue star detail on the bogie, not 7mm 😆

I have heard someone has a cl40 in the pipe line but I’ve no idea who, so not very helpful I know 😂

[YesTor]

59 minutes ago, PjKing1 said:

I have heard someone has a cl40 in the pipe line but I’ve no idea who, so not very helpful I know 😂

 

Hopefully not Heljan...  🤨

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by YesTor

[mdvle]

21 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

How many different manufactures have released the Class 37 and 47 ?

 

The 37/47 were much more popular and widespread plus the advantage of lasting to the present day so have a lot of liveries to offer in addition to being so common.  thus much easier to justify multiple high end toolings.

 

21 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

Would a brand new 45/46 really be such a risk compared with the above ?

 

Potentially.  Flip side though is that Bachmann have a much wider retail network and potentially if the concerns regarding the shape of the new Heljan model are true Bachmann may feel that there is an opportunity.

 

On 11/08/2022 at 12:03, GordonC said:

I know modellers are loco-centric, but I'd really have thought other unproduced types DMUs and EMUs would have higher sales potential

 

Probably comes back to the classic issue of price - are we modellers willing to pay the high price than a 4/5 car multiple unit would retail at?  I think yes but the manufacturers apparently aren't sure hence their hesitation.

[GordonC]

22 hours ago, Holmesfeldian said:

 

How many different manufactures have released the Class 37 and 47 ?

Then Bachmann issue an all new version with bells and whistles - which sells.

Would a brand new 45/46 really be such a risk compared with the above ?

I'd be happy with a Class 40 with 4mm scale blue star detail on the bogie, not 7mm 😆

 

There will be a shed-load more Class 37s and 47s sold than Peaks. With Peaks not getting liveries beyond BR Blue then there would be far less options for sales. How big a seller would Large Logo livery be on its own on Class 37s and 47s

[stovepipe]

But to cover all those 37 & 47 variations, acurately across the decades, requires a more extensive and expensive tooling suite. There might be a window of opportunity for the shorter-lived but less varied loco classes too. It hasn't stopped Bachmann retooling both main types of 24 to a good standard, despite the limited livery variations.

[adb968008]

On 12/08/2022 at 21:10, mdvle said:

Probably comes back to the classic issue of price - are we modellers willing to pay the high price than a 4/5 car multiple unit would retail at?  I think yes but the manufacturers apparently aren't sure hence their hesitation.

Until they try, they wont know.

But Europe has no issue with it, and their MU prices are very competitive to ours…

 

Take this 4 car unit on its way for around £350 rrp (inc tax). To be fair its also 1 year late and price has increased from £300, but pre-orders are being honoured at old prices.

 

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Drive+trains/Electric+Railcars/Piko-51450/gb/modell_367126.html
 

vs 4 car Hornby 755 at £411 

vs 3 car Heljan 104 at £449

There must be a different reason why UK MU models are more expensive.. anyone here willing to bet on the Polish domestic market being bigger than the UKs?

maybe the clue is here.., same EN57 is £430 in the UK… i’ll be buying my 2 from lippe, as its about the same as 1 bought here, despite the 22% DE tax removed, 20% UK applied and DHLs fee.

 

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/piko-pk51450.html
 

The UK seems to be heading back to those days of “Treasure Island”, and not just model trains.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by adb968008

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Until they try, they wont know.

 

They wont lose their investment either.

[mdvle]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Until they try, they wont know.

 

To be clear for anyone reading this I think the market will support the longer units and their higher prices - but there are a very vocal group demanding cheap prices that unfortunately seem to have more influence than their numbers warrant.

 

I also would guess that everyone is watching to see how the Heljan 104 does, and that there may well be other multiple units at least in the research phase.  Unless they all move to TT:120 they need something to tool going forward.

 

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Take this 4 car unit on its way for around £350 rrp (inc tax). To be fair its also 1 year late and price has increased from £300, but pre-orders are being honoured at old prices

 

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Drive+trains/Electric+Railcars/Piko-51450/gb/modell_367126.html
 

vs 4 car Hornby 755 at £411 

vs 3 car Heljan 104 at £449

 

The model you linked is a 3-car unit, not 4.

 

The comparison on the 104 is also under 100 units made vs 1452 made for the EN57 - the EN57 was apparently a much more common (and thus much more needed for Polish modelers) unit and that will reflect in the economics.

 

 

[Hal Nail]

Given manifactuerers have stated coaches have to sell in far greater numbers to cover costs, given the tooling isnt much less than a loco, I suspect for the total cost to the manufactuer of doing a 4 car unit, they would make a far bigger margin by tooling 2 or 3 locos instead.

 

So its not so much whether a 4 car would sell, its why would a manufacturer do it when they could make more from their capital doing other things.

[Suzy Sulzer]

On 11/08/2022 at 09:41, Holmesfeldian said:

In unrelated news, a representative from Bachmann was at Kidderminster diesel depot yesterday taking measurements and photographing every detail of D182 to improve their future class 45 and 46 models.

 

This might be of interest to those who consider Bachmann's model to be a more accurate 'shape'.

Don't rule out a N gauge version.

[jjb1970]

20 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

So its not so much whether a 4 car would sell, its why would a manufacturer do it when they could make more from their capital doing other things.

 

The great ignored part of business. I used to do a lot of work for military clients and got fed up of having the same argument repeatedly that they could buy commercial off the shelf warship engines or figure out how else to power their frigates etc. They genuinely couldn't get that it didn't matter how much they were willing to pay, no engine builders were going to tie up valuable design and development resources and associated manufacturing resources to build an engine which would be lucky to get very far into double digit sales when those same resources could be working on programs intended to deliver hundreds and thousands of engines.

[rob D2]

Could have a unit for £300+ , or a way sexier loco for £169…. Unless you really really need one, this I see as an issue 

[mdvle]

On 13/08/2022 at 14:02, Hal Nail said:

So its not so much whether a 4 car would sell, its why would a manufacturer do it when they could make more from their capital doing other things.

 

There is truth in what you have said, but it is the second part of your sentence that is the key in OO these days.

 

With so many companies now tooling stuff, and with so few diesels still needing a new/first tooling, what else can they tool and make money on?

 

Over on the Accurascale side there are claims of great unclaimed gold mines in the available choice of steam locos but I do wonder how true that is.  Steam locos are more expensive to tool than diesels/electrics and much/most of the unclaimed steam locos are very geographically limited.  I mean while I favour GWR stuff I would love for someone to do the SR Z-class, but how well would that actually sell?  There are still some potentially popular steam locos available but I don't think it is the abundant choice some claim/hope.

 

Which brings us back to multiple units.  They may not bring in more profit for the tooling £ spent that a 47 does, but they are also still available to be done. 

 

 

[andythenorth]

As we're going to stay wildly off-topic, here's my 2p.

 

• units are weird
• I have close to 100 locos in OO
• in units I have a 108, a 2EPB, a 156 and a 4TC
• I am completely irrational in how I value a unit. I'll happily pay £120 for a DC only loco, sometimes a couple in a month, but £360 for a 3 car unit seems outrageous (this is irrational, but there we go) 
• I am completely irrational in how I value a unit. I'll happily save up and buy a rake of 10 (unlit) MK2s at £40 each, but £360 for a motorised unit with lighting seems outrageous (this is irrational, but there we go) 
• I am completely irrational in how I value a unit. I'll buy 12 BAAs at £45 each, then £20 each for loads, but £360 for a unit seems outrageous (this is irrational, but there we go)
• I am completely irrational in how I value a unit. I'll buy single car 122s, 128s and 419s happily at £120 each, but £360 for a 3-car 117 seems outrageous (this is irrational, but there we go)

You get the picture, could say more, but I won't continue :P 

 

This topic is so far away from Peaks 😝

 

And as for gaps in the market, nobody has a done a HTV / rebodied HTO yet.  Everybody modelling 1950s onwards needs at least 10 so there's your gap. 🤑

Edited August 14, 2022 by andythenorth