Heljan announce Class 45 in OO

[YesTor]

7 hours ago, 97406 said:

The rake of the windscreens needs to be correct, though I’ve seen someone correct the O gauge 40 and it looked great! I’d definitely get a 4mm one to try the same treatment on if one were to be produced and the price was right.

 

12 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

It’s like there’re saying “we’ll sell you a crude model for as long as we can get away with, then when enough demand it, we’ll do a better version and sell to you again”

 

And that is exactly the problem.  If Heljan were to tackle the Class 40 in OO, they'd be highly likely to simply shrink the O gauge version from their range - including its inherent flaws - as has happened with the 45. 

 

There are indeed moments when you sit back and pray that Heljan would leave some of the more popular diesel types well alone; after all, how many years did we wait for an OO gauge Class 33 with a correct-shaped roof; the 47 wasn't anywhere near correct first time around, and I'm not convinced that the second offering is substantially improved either; and now we have the 45. 

 

On the O gauge front, the Class 40 and 37 look distinctly 'wrong' from the front end view - Heljan really do not seem to be able to capture the windscreen areas of these 'bonnet' designs convincingly.  The 56 and 60 again look distinctly 'off' at first glance - odd angles around the windscreen areas on the latter, a general look of 'quirkiness' etc etc.  Virtually the whole range appears to be a mish-mash of errors that could have been avoided.

 

On a positive note and sure, there are some extremely impressive diesel shunters that have been produced, and the Class 26 is good (albeit not without errors), so too the Class 128.  The thing I like about many of Heljan's models is that they do have presence and always appear visually 'weighty', something that some of the other manufacturers fall down on slightly.  It's just a shame that the R&D dept is somewhat lacking in ability/willingness to get things right from the offset and certainly explains why I sadly seem to have so few Heljan models in my collection.

 

Al

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by YesTor

[97406]

13 hours ago, YesTor said:

On a positive note and sure, there are some extremely impressive diesel shunters that have been produced, and the Class 26 is good (albeit not without errors), so too the Class 128.  The thing I like about many of Heljan's models is that they do have presence and always appear visually 'weighty', something that some of the other manufacturers fall down on slightly.  It's just a shame that the R&D dept is somewhat lacking in ability/willingness to get things right from the offset and certainly explains why I sadly seem to have so few Heljan models in my collection.

 

Al

 

The 86 is very good, even though the cab gutters are of the earliest type which was amended very early on in their lives. Quite bizarre the tooling wasn't amended when the 86/4 was released. Reasonably easy to rectify on top of the existing paintwork, though. Some of the livery applications also needed rectification too, mind.

[wombatofludham]

Well I for one am glad Heljan tackle the models they do.  Years ago when we had just the Mainline 45 no-one would have bet on there being TWO 45s on the market allowing people to choose the one they feel more comfortable with.  Same with the 47 and the 25.  Whilst a 45 isn't on my priority list for now (although I do still fancy getting a blue split headcode as D71 "Staffordshire Regiment" for 1968 before it got the replacement front end in 1969 giving it the unique centre box-split box appearance and a "Sherwood Forrester" as I had relatives in both regiments who died in WW1) when I saw the 45s at Sutton I was impressed.  As with other models which compete, I will base my purchases on whether the model looks good viewed from the viewpoint on my layout, the equivalent of a 15 storey high rise some 150 feet from the track, and the liveries and features offered.  At that viewpoint, I doubt I will notice the cab windows even if they are a bit out, which might explain why the displayed models at DEMU impressed me.  To me they looked the part.
 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by wombatofludham
Split headcode personality

[adb968008]

In fairness to Heljan imo they occupy that spot between Railroad and Super detailed.

 

Their mechanisms internally feel to me pretty basic to the rest and felt lesser quality / rudimentary. The detail level was pretty good up until a point.

However I find they were pretty indestructible, in modern traction, and you dont see many knackered ones on ebay (17 aside), and spare parts were very cheap and easy with Howes, pre Gaugemaster.

 

That was also reflected in price, where they used to be in the middle between Railroad and Super detailed.  c£100 would (and in some remaining cases still does) get you a pretty decent loco. At £130 the class 33’s were great compared to £150 class 66’s.

 

This year though the prices have hugely stepped up, they are now higher than Bachmann and are probably the highest in the UK rtr market… and indeed are quite high on an EU scale too £489 for a 3 car DMU ?

 

However so far ive not seen any real improvement in quality, yes a more compact circuit board, yes a new pantograph, yes an LED instead of a bulb.., but its still a basic motor, basic assembly, basic set of add on details… under the hood the class 25 still feels like a £100 loco to me, not a £209 one, especially when Bachmanns 24 is only £179 and SLWs high alter 25 is £189 (but where is it ?).

 

compare the Hornby 87, which i feel is really well engineered for detail, its board, add on pieces, enhanced electrical options etc… to the basic set up of the 86.

 

It feels much more robust, the electronics more spacious and indepth, the motor is definitely stronger and smoother. Ok it wins in the drivers cab.

 

Then there is the Bachmann 90, which has the separate roof piece for easy DCC fitting, not to mention lighting and of course the servo motor for the pantograph…

 

but when you look at price…

 

£254 for a Heljan 86

£229 for a Bachmann 90

£219 for a Hornby 87

 

Imo Heljan scores lowest of the 3 on detail, mechanics, lighting, electronics, and of course.. price.

 

Forgive me not being over excited by the 45… i expect not much more than ive seen so far, the 25 was dissapointing. I might not be alone as I picked up a new one for just £90 last week. So lets see what we get, but imo Heljans falling far from what used to be its sweetspot and increasingly into interestingly niche but keep walking past territory.  For me its becoming the fading star, just at the point my modern image range looks pretty much complete, and competition is rife, from class 02-92 making my decisions much more choosey…
 

I still question the demand for a second class 45 in the market place and  it might be Bachmann surprises us with a 45/1 (they have been kind of quiet with 45’s recently)…that might become very interesting, especially as their 25 looks nice,  isnt far behind and their quality is generally at a higher level.

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by adb968008

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

£254 for a Heljan 86

£229 for a Bachmann 90

£219 for a Hornby 87

 

Not really a fair comparison.  The £254 price of the Heljan models is the newly announced range of re-runs which will have had the current inflation in production and shipping factored in. At a well known box shifter based in Sheffield (other box shifters exist) the current price of non-sound Bachmann 90s is £184.95 (20% off), in stock, the Heljan 86/4s which were in stock shortly before the 90s are £189.95 (21% discount) and the Hornby 87 is £159,50.

New releases of Bachmann's 90 will almost certainly match Heljan's re-release prices.

As for the Hornby 87, it is a nice runner, but it is absolutely hopeless to fit DCC sound without some surgery and a lot of soldering.  Bachmann's 90 is a doddle, but I have a very large fleet of Heljan 86s, both the original 86/2s with 8 pin decoders and the latest AL6/86-0 and 86-4 models, all are a doddle to chip with noise (once you've got the body off) and more to the point run just as well as the Hornby 87, you can't put a tissue paper between their running qualities.

In short, the Heljan 86/0 and 86/4 are excellent models and worth the price for the current releases.  The newly announced batch are a sharp increase, but only the beginning, and I expect Bachmann and Hornby to revise their RRPs in the very near future given the price inflation in transport and materials.  Then there will be a much more even spread of prices.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Not really a fair comparison.  The £254 price of the Heljan models is the newly announced range of re-runs which will have had the current inflation in production and shipping factored in. At a well known box shifter based in Sheffield (other box shifters exist) the current price of non-sound Bachmann 90s is £184.95 (20% off), in stock, the Heljan 86/4s which were in stock shortly before the 90s are £189.95 (21% discount) and the Hornby 87 is £159,50.
 

i’m quoting RRPs, your quoting various high street discounts, ymmv day by day.

 

The new Hornby 87 (87009) is about to be released, any day, so it really doesnt get more current than that… £217.99 is what its being released at.

You may have missed Heljans price rise across the board about 3 weeks ago.

As for predicting future prices, your crystal ball is as good as mine.

 

the only fair comparison is todays RRP… it is what the company deems, not what the market is competing on, which maybe any manner of stock consolidation, age or marketing. I bought an new 87 for £75 the other week, doesnt mean every Hornby 87 in the market is a bargain… 

 

if you want the latest and greatest, this is it..

£254 for a Heljan 86

£229 for a Bachmann 90

£219 for a Hornby 87

 

we can of course compare prices of class 45’s…

 

Bachmann £159

Heljan £189

 

if your flag waving the Heljan model, then as the newest, it should be the better one, by at least a decade of technology, shouldnt it ?

Lets see.. if the Heljan 45 trumps Bachmanns in the way Hornbys new 9f does… this I am open minded on and is what i’m hoping for.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by adb968008

[Gary H]

21 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

On the O gauge front, the Class 40 and 37 look distinctly 'wrong' from the front end view - Heljan really do not seem to be able to capture the windscreen areas of these 'bonnet' designs convincingly.  The 56 and 60 again look distinctly 'off' at first glance - odd angles around the windscreen areas on the latter, a general look of 'quirkiness' etc etc.  Virtually the whole range appears to be a mish-mash of errors that could have been avoided.

 

 

You can add the 50 cab front to the list aswell, the front windscreen area is some way off too.

[younGGuns7]

Western as well Dapol’s for me is far better 

[97406]

11 minutes ago, Gary H said:

You can add the 50 cab front to the list aswell, the front windscreen area is some way off too.

 

I’d argue the Heljan 50 looks closer than the Hornby one. Heljan’s 33 is excellent as is the 26.  I’m also very pleased the Class 14 and 17. The 25 got a lot of rap when it was released, but it looks the part and I have a large logo tubby duff too. The livery application covers up the slight extra width well on the 47.

 

I have a lot of their locos, in fact. 

[Ian J.]

I beg to differ on either of the OO Heljan 33/0s. Both have deficiencies, and I'd very much like to see someone like Accurascale, Cavalex, Rapido, Revolution, etc, do one to a really good, accurate quality. The Heljan 33/1s and 33/2s are more or less OK though. I'd be happy to keep my existing ones of those, where I'd happily replace the sole 2nd generation 33/0 I only got recently.

[Hal Nail]

55 minutes ago, 97406 said:

 

I’d argue the Heljan 50 looks closer than the Hornby one.

Well they went to the trouble of redoing it after the initial reaction so you would hope so.

 

 

[wombatofludham]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

if you want the latest and greatest, this is it..

£254 for a Heljan 86

£229 for a Bachmann 90

£219 for a Hornby 87

 

 

You are missing the point 

 

You are deliberately quoting the RRP of a new batch of yet to be released locos with models which were released with RRP set before the massive price increases and which are probably only just in production.  Even the Hornby 87 - which has been delayed by nearly 12 months for no apparent reason - will have had their RRP set against the price background when their production began, which given the delay could have been some while back.  Bachmann's 90s will have been made and shipped before the Heljan reruns were even being agreed for production and well before this year's Ukraine influenced economic shock, the further post Covid problems and the post Brexit additional costs which Heljan have been completely honest about.  In fact the recent kamikaze dive by the pound might make the current prices of any newly announced, yet to be produced models redundant by now.

 

Prices and shortages of materials and labour have widely been reported as having materially deteriorated in the past six to twelve months which will have been after the Bachmann 90 and Hornby 87 were delivered or had their prices set.  Whether Hornby will keep the current RRP after the first load hit the shelves, or whether they will increase the RRP when a second load hits the shelves, as they did with their 31147 model last year due to shipping and other price pressures remains to be seen.  Of course they may be only releasing the load already on the way and the price will remain.  

As for technology, if the model has all the details I want, runs smoothly and can be easily converted to sound, then that's all the tech I want.  The powered pantograph on the Bachmann 90 is a waste of time, and the Hornby 87 has some detail flaws and is only just coming into 21 pin territory but, as far as I know, has done nothing to make a DCC sound conversion easy.  The Heljan 86 stands comparison with the other models on the market and yes, recent price increases have pushed Heljan in some cases above Bachmann, but we don't know how Bachmann will respond to recent price pressures with stuff they haven't yet announced, being part of a much larger outfit than Heljan may help with their being able to absorb some of the pressure on pricing, but I suspect not.  But to compare RRP prices from stuff which has yet to hit the shelves and has only been announced since the economic effects of recent events have begun to take effect with stuff either delivered before or price announced before recent economic turmoil is making spurious comparisons.  The RRPs on the relative models were all set by their respective manufacturers in vastly different economic circumstances.

Personally, and coming back to the 45s, I consider the Heljan model is equivalent to the Bachmann, slightly more expensive but based on my history with many Heljan and Bachmann models, I would be confident that the Heljan model will be a good runner, have all the tech I need, be easy to fit noise to and be robust.  Interestingly I have yet to have a Heljan model break down on me whilst I have had Bachmann models lose driveshafts.  I've had several Hornby high detail HSTs fail to the point I just got rid of them and vowed never to have another, and as for Dapol, we won't go there.  That reliability is what I want, and for me Heljan (and for the most part Bachmann) that trumps gee-whiz tech and relatively hard to detect detail issues, so price wise for me Bachmann and Heljan are equivalent and worth the investment.

For me, there's no point having a superb model with everything to suit those who inspect their models with electron microscopes if the thing won't work, won't take DCC sound without major surgery or throws a hissy fit after a week.

[YesTor]

12 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Years ago when we had just the Mainline 45 no-one would have bet on there being TWO 45s on the market allowing people to choose the one they feel more comfortable with.  

 

For sure... now we can choose between one very dated model and one fundamentally inaccurate one.  🙈  Fair enough re the Bachmann 45, a model of its vintage will naturally appear dated. 

 

Heljan's 45 however, is a model produced in 2022, when there is more technology and opportunity to research available to mankind than in any previous age.  And to effectively 'reward' a manufacturer with £160+ of my hard-earned dollar for a model that has clearly been poorly researched/executed, well, I'm afraid that simply ain't how I roll.  But of course, with full respect, to each his own...  😃

 

Al

Edited October 3, 2022 by YesTor

[rob D2]

On 01/10/2022 at 16:59, aureol40012 said:

I keep saying this, it’s the class that is literally shouting out for a new model, it would sell like hot cakes, but no, we need more 37s, 47s………. 🙄

That's because they are way more popular , they've lasted longer and even the enthusiasts today get to see them .

 

The 40 you'd have to have been around in the early 80s to remember them, two liveries , and limited geographical spread .What's wrong with the newer tooled version from bar well ?

 

For something else still going , loads of liveries , but also limited geographically we'd like a new 50 - that'd sell " like hot cakes " to me as i'd have ...2.

[MikeParkin65]

Full review of the 45 in the October Hornby Mag apparently - published this coming Thursday 

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

 

The 40 you'd have to have been around in the early 80s to remember them, two liveries , and limited geographical spread .What's wrong with the newer tooled version from bar well ?

 

They did a class 17 with less variations and have an 02 in development.  A 40 by comparison can still be seen on the mainline, has several nose variations and livery variations to boot if you look at the varying levels of yellow applied to the front (none to large logo on 145).

 

However the Barwell version looks perfectly acceptable to me.

[Holmesfeldian]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

However the Barwell version looks perfectly acceptable to me.

if 7mm sized blue star detail on a 4mm scale bogie  is your thing then fair play to you 😃

[rob D2]

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

They did a class 17 with less variations and have an 02 in development.  A 40 by comparison can still be seen on the mainline, has several nose variations and livery variations to boot if you look at the varying levels of yellow applied to the front (none to large logo on 145).

 

However the Barwell version looks perfectly acceptable to me.

True,they have made some obscure stuff, I just wasn’t sure why the Bachmann one would need another rejig

[97406]

6 hours ago, rob D2 said:

 

The 40 you'd have to have been around in the early 80s to remember them, two liveries , and limited geographical spread .What's wrong with the newer tooled version from bar well ?

 

For something else still going , loads of liveries , but also limited geographically we'd like a new 50 - that'd sell " like hot cakes " to me as i'd have ...2.

 

The latest Bachmann 40 rides too high on its bogies, the front screens aren’t quite correct, and it’s missing some of the chassis detailing. Also the O gauge MW equipment. Some or all of which can be rectified, making for a great model. There is a rumour of a new one in development…

 

The Hornby 50 can also be fixed, but I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if a replacement gets announced as some point given it shares its bogies with classes 37 and 55. Conjecture on my part, though.

[Allegheny1600]

8 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

For me, there's no point having a superb model with everything to suit those who inspect their models with electron microscopes if the thing won't work, won't take DCC sound without major surgery or throws a hissy fit after a week.

That’s the point!

 I took years to see the “faults” with the Bachmann class 25, in fact I still struggle but even I can easily see the faults with the Heljan class 45.

No need for an “electron microscope” but hey, if you are satisfied with those windscreens and other problems - who am I to call you?

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, rob D2 said:

For something else still going , loads of liveries , but also limited geographically we'd like a new 50 - that'd sell " like hot cakes " to me as i'd have ...2.

in the 1990’s I had 34 Lima class 50’s.

They were my favourite class.

Today Ive 1 Lima 50, plus 16 Hornby.

 

My head says no… no need for duplication, the Hornby 50 was Opus Magna for Hornby diesels, theyve never made a better diesel…

since 2018 that rumours grow of another 50 is in development, their name was written on the side of it.. literally… i’m surprised its not yet been announced as it must surely be near ready… if they do to it what they should, AND at a price that says yes, chances are i’ll dump the lot and start again, get either wrong and I wont.

its probably the only diesel class i’d consider doing at this stage… everything else BR era diesel is good enough, and stuffing subfleets and gaps.

 

I've already 6 class 45/0’s, and I upgraded 3 Replica 45’s a few years back to the latest Bachmann chassis.. the Replica peaks days’ are numbered. But only so many Blue peaks you need before they all look the same.

So I might buy 3 class 45/1’s… 45106/118 and one to renumber, probably as 128.

 

Therein is the gap.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

That’s the point!

 I took years to see the “faults” with the Bachmann class 25, in fact I still struggle but even I can easily see the faults with the Heljan class 45.

No need for an “electron microscope” but hey, if you are satisfied with those windscreens and other problems - who am I to call you?

Indeed, I have never seen much wrong with Bachmann models, or Dapol even but I've seen a few clangers on Heljan - the 37 with it's incorrectly aligned grilles - not so bad in some liveries but very obvious in two tone grey,  a tubby duff and now the 45.

 

However, on the flipside the class 26, 27, 33 and 35 were superb, I know the 33 was redone but I couldn't see anything wrong with the originals.

 

However, I can never understand why some people like one football team over another, it's still just 11 men kicking a ball of gas whilst running up and down a field.   So a Bachmann Peak and a Heljan Peak, well there both just a Peak and some prefer one and some the other.

[97406]

I think the Bachmann and Accurascale 37s will stand up very well alongside each other.

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, 97406 said:

I think the Bachmann and Accurascale 37s will stand up very well alongside each other.

And Vitrains.. tbh Lima scrubs up ok with a bit of work and a Vitrains chassis.

 

But 37’s are hardy perennials, they will run on the mainline in one form or other as long as oil is extracted from the ground, and people just like their raw grunt… its the Diesel Black 5 & the US F-unit or the Russian M62... just keeps going, anywhere, everywhere, forever…. In the UK its current modern passenger equivalent must be The 158, and for freight is obviously the catch all - 66.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by adb968008

[No Decorum]

16 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

However, I can never understand why some people like one football team over another, it's still just 11 men kicking a ball of gas whilst running up and down a field.

 

OT. I feel that the provision of an extra ball of gas so that each team had one would stop all the fighting over the single ball and restore peace. We could then fill the extra airtime with model railways. After all, with model railways, everyone wins.